The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[Quiet Isle]

Of course Arya is not used to that. Did you ever really doubt that using womanly charms would be a part of FM training? It seems like an incredibly useful tool to approach victims unthreateningly and place them in vulnerable positions. As soon as the KM mentioned making Arya a courtesan, it was obvious that the FM have contacts even there, if they can make such an offer so lightly. Thus, of course Arya would receive such teachings, if she remains with the FM long enough. Did you actually have any doubts?

Right! my post agreed with you! but here is where Martin is going to cross some sisterly paths and i just can't wait. we're on the same page, except for this..... I think Arya has to leave in order to make that change.... now. We shall see. fascinating!

[Fender]

Right! my post agreed with you! but here is where Martin is going to cross some sisterly paths and i just can't wait. we're on the same page, except for this..... I think Arya has to leave in order to make that change.... now. We shall see. fascinating!

You know, I think it would be very interesting to have a real life conversation with you, just to see the expression on your face when you wistfully say "Fascinating!", and honestly mean it.

[Quiet Isle]

You know, I think it would be very interesting to have a real life conversation with you, just to see the expression on your face when you wistfully say "Fascinating!", and honestly mean it.

I do honestly mean it. i really do! i LOVE this epic. majored in lit, and I'm telling you this series has me enthralled!

[Alia of the knife]

I don't understand some of your points. As far as I can tell, Arya is beyond acting like a boy. She did so when she was with Yoren to seem like she fit in and not stand out, and she tried to maintain the facade when she was caught by Gregor partly because she thought that it might spare her some atrocities, and because she was still trying to hide her identity entirely. But once the cat was out of the bag, not once did she attempt to pass as a boy; she would even immediately correct any who would make the mistake.

So taking Arya's attitude in consideration, as well as the FM's perceived tendencies, I see no reason why she would want to disguise herself as a man. She knows that the large majority of the servants of the Many-Faced god are men, so why not send a man to do a mission intended for a man? I don't remember seeing Jaqen changing his face and appearance to transform into a comely woman, so why would we expect Arya to do so? She's one of the few female members, and she seems to have quite a lot of potential. Might as well use her whenever a woman would be more suited for the situation. And screw the sports bra, let all her womanly charms hang out; eroticization is a woman's largest agency over men, after all.

I was making a general statement in regards to the use of the word "flowering," within the context of this threads discussion.

It's true Arya has no issues acknowledging her femininity once she feels safe enough to do so.

Up until now, she was taken for a boy, because it was easy to take her for that, and then later, she adopted it again because she had to and it kept her safe.

As far as maturing, if she ends up on the road again alone, she would do well to continue to try, but, the point is, it may no longer be an option for her.

As far as the FM go, I'd think they'd want her background as much as her gender for their purposes. She's Noble, educated, and at least knows how to conduct herself around the Upper Classes.

Though she may have had a Northern accent, she still speaks "Nobly," and thats not something she easily hides either. Again, not in the books, but in the series, that is something else Tywin picks up on.

Edit: And that she might be beautiful doesn't hurt the FM cause, but of course I don't trust them either.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ok, let me say this.

i Don't think they'll burn his body. I think he will be resurrected and move on to the North as the Last Hero archetype.

He has to learn of his heritage. Aemon left him a book, bookmarked. I still wonder what it said. It had to cryptic, since Clydas marked it but Aemon would not have marked something clearly telling Jon who he was.

so we know that aemon has left a trail, and sam has to fill it in. with knowledge from the Citadel.

and perhaps Howland Reed to fill in some other blanks.

my son and i have said that Jon will never believe who he really is without it coming from several trustworthy sources. I wouldn't. would you? it would take a village to enable me to wrap my head around this history.

It's the Jade Compendium, and it got nothing to do with Jon's heritage. In fact, it is about Azor Azhai and Lightbringer, some hints that Stannis' sword is fake.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Arya wants to see her family but as I mentioned earlier she has also expressed desires of her own of what she perhaps wanted to do in life and what she wanted which is important.

To compare her to Oberyn he actually traveled and had a life of his own before he decided to help his brother. I imagine helping Doran was something that he chose to do.

To have no other goals for herself besides helping her family is more Kevan Lannister who was just Tywin's shadow.

To me personally theories that are desperate for her to return to other main characters just reek of I like x character and how can Arya be of use to them.

ETA: Like the KG or QG theories I mentioned. Arya didn't even say that she wanted to do that but then there are theories that say she would be great in Jon or Sansa's KG or QG. That would make her happy. I don't see textual evidence for that.

Or other theories that say that she can be the muscle or brawn for the Starks. She's gaining so much skills and is being educated. Why would she just simply want do that? That would be a waste imo.

Most don't seem to be desperate for other characters to stop what they're doing and go to Arya. They're allowed to be independent. She should be able to as well.

Why can't we have both? Oh right this is ASOIAF. Seriously,though, I don't see why Arya meeting up with her remaining family and helping them makes her any less independent. Her family won't force her into anything especially since they've all gone through many things throughout the books as well. And Arya meeting up with her family again would make her happy and that's the most important thing for me. :)

[ARYa_Nym]

Why can't we have both? Oh right this is ASOIAF. Seriously,though, I don't see why Arya meeting up with her remaining family and helping them makes her any less independent. Her family won't force her into anything especially since they've all gone through many things throughout the books as well. And Arya meeting up with her family again would make her happy and that's the most important thing for me. :)

Most of those theories aren't asking for both. It's mostly extreme. The path she's on now is extreme in that she's giving up her family. But those who dislike the FM arc want her to completely give up what she wants or render that irrelevant by deciding what she should want because it coincides with what they want for another character in that Arya can help them.

The difference with other characters is that they don't get asked to give up their own storylines for her but there are wishes for her to do it. She's not a sidekick.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Most of those theories aren't asking for both. It's mostly extreme. The path she's on now is extreme in that she's giving up her family. But those who dislike the FM arc want her to completely give up what she wants or render that irrelevant by deciding what she should want because it coincides with what they want for another character in that Arya can help them.

The difference with other characters is that they don't get asked to give up their own storylines for her but there are wishes for her to do it. She's not a sidekick.

I don't think Arya wants to stay a fm for the rest of her life though. I would love for her to learn some skills, go back to Westeros, cross some people off her list, and then reunite with her family. And do...whatever else she wants.

Arya definitely isn't a sidekick, I agree.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think Arya wants to stay a fm for the rest of her life though. I would love for her to learn some skills, go back to Westeros, cross some people off her list, and then reunite with her family. And do...whatever else she wants.

Arya definitely isn't a sidekick, I agree.

Whether she does or she doesn't right now she is making choices for herself. She's doing what she wants now. What she wants can and may change but why deny her the choice?

She shouldn't want to stay with the FM. Being x character's hitman/do their dirty work is so much better (from a moral standpoint she is still killing). Or being in x character's KG/QG even though it doesn't make sense. Work in their court even though she hated KL. etc.

Let her decide what she wants first. She's gaining new experiences now and will be able to get a better idea of what she wants to do through experience and learning what she likes and what she doesn't.

I don't think that sounds like a good story personally. She helps her family and kills nobodies. It's not something that is indicative of a major character to me especially in comparison to what the other ones are going to be doing.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Whether she does or she doesn't right now she is making choices for herself. She's doing what she wants now. What she wants can and may change but why deny her the choice?

ETA: To me it's all about denying her the choice. She shouldn't want to stay with the FM. Being x character's hitman/do their dirty work is so much better (from a moral standpoint she is still killing). Or being in x character's KG/QG even though she never expressed the desire to do that. Work in their court even though she hated KL. etc.

I don't think that sounds like a good story personally. She helps her family and kills nobodies. It's not something that is indicative of a major character to me especially in comparison to what the other ones are going to be doing.

True. I wouldn't deny her the choice at all.

Cersei isn't a nobody and she's on Arya's list. And Arya imo wants-and deserves to get- some revenge for what happened to her family.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

[ARYa_Nym]

True. I wouldn't deny her the choice at all.

Cersei isn't a nobody and she's on Arya's list. And Arya imo wants-and deserves to get- some revenge for what happened to her family.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

It's more than likely that she is not the valonqar. She's not male, she doesn't kill by strangling, she already passed on it when she didn't name Cersei, and she may not even be in Westeros soon enough. Cersei is already half way to washed up.The rest of her list are no names.

However, if she continues to have her own storyline then all those skills she has been learning can lead up to her doing something of importance.

[Daenerys is my queen]

It's more than likely that she is not the valonqar. She's not male, she doesn't kill by strangling, she already passed on it when she didn't name Cersei, and she may not even be in Westeros soon enough. Cersei is already half way to washed up.The rest of her list are no names.

However, if she continues to have her own storyline then all those skills she has been learning can lead up to her doing something of importance.

True. I guess. Personally I don't mind though. If killing the people on her list will bring her peace (that sounds wrong :lol: but you know what I mean) then that's what I want her to do.

Oh I'm sure they will.

[Alia of the knife]

I tend to think that Arya can have both.

In fact, I really don't take an extremist view on her, because I actually think she will do a little bit of everything.

The only reason why I don't see the FM as a future for her is not because I have a particular vision for her, but because it seems a little "dead-end" as a plot unless Martin does indeed intend to utilize her in the Free Cities, and he doesn't have her come back to Westeros.

But, I also don't trust the FM, or see them as good for her, and I'm especially intrigued to know what the KM really looks like, and if he is really that "kindly."

I think he's a "user."

[Daenerys is my queen]

I tend to think that Arya can have both.

In fact, I really don't take an extremist view on her, because I actually think she will do a little bit of everything.

The only reason why I don't see the FM as a future for her is not because I have a particular vision for her, but because it seems a little "dead-end" as a plot unless Martin does indeed intend to utilize her in the Free Cities, and he doesn't have her come back to Westeros.

But, I also don't trust the FM, or see them as good for her, and I'm especially intrigued to know what the KM really looks like, and if he is really that "kindly."

I think he's a "user."

:agree:

I think her staying with the FM would definitely be a dead end. I actually do trust the FM but I could definitely be wrong about that.

[ARYa_Nym]

True. I guess. Personally I don't mind though. If killing the people on her list will bring her peace (that sounds wrong :lol: but you know what I mean) then that's what I want her to do.

Oh I'm sure they will.

Finishing off her list isn't though in the overall story. & what I was saying earlier is that if the important things she does is just how she helps another major character that is what a sidekick does.

On the list, when Joffrey died she said what did it matter? It was hollow for her but she keeps on with the list. I don't think it gives her peace. Besides, she can quickly find someone new to hate.

Anyways, to reiterate the point it's not simply that there are wishes for Arya to see her family again but that helping them should be her role in the story and in life.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that Fm are only the place to learn and I think that revenge actually won't play so big role in Arya's future arc by the time she will return all the important people from her list will be dead (ser Illyn and UnCat are to close to each other geographically for her to let him walk away), I might be too optimistic but I think that whole revenge arc was there only so Arya would have strong enough motivation to go trough one of the hardest trainings in ASOIAF universe. She has clear plan - she wants to learn how to change her face. The question is how deep she will go to FM belief.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Finishing off her list isn't though in the overall story. & what I was saying earlier is that if the important things she does is just how she helps another major character that is what a sidekick does.

On the list, when Joffrey died she said what did it matter? It was hollow for her but she keeps on with the list. I don't think it gives her peace. Besides, she can quickly find someone new to hate.

Anyways, to reiterate the point it's not simply that there are wishes for Arya to see her family again but that helping them should be her role in the story and in life.

I guess. I wish she could do it though. Yeah I guess.

Oh I forgot about that. I need to reread these books. :)

Eh....I don't see what's so bad about that though. If she wants to help her family -and I think she might- then I think it would be great. If not then she should do whatever it is she wants to do.

[ARYa_Nym]

I guess. I wish she could do it though. Yeah I guess.

Oh I forgot about that. I need to reread these books. :)

Eh....I don't see what's so bad about that though. If she wants to help her family -and I think she might- then I think it would be great. If not then she should do whatever it is she wants to do.

Because that is turning her into a codependent little helper whose function in the story is x character's sidekick.

As was mentioned earlier Arya has expressed desires to do things in life that don't involve revolving her life around someone else.

When she has her little talk with Ned she doesn't ask him how can I help Robb or Jon. She wonders what she can do besides the path that is set out for her. She wants to find her own path.

That is what she is doing now. The point really isn't about her staying with the FM or not but that she is making choices for herself.

Also, as I've said these theories involve her either doing the dirty work while the other character is the one who is the figurehead and gets to do the things they want in life. Or she's in their court in a scenario where they're ruling and she's doing things that she's never said that she wanted to do but is being denied the possible paths that she wondered if she could do.

& as I've said Kevan Lannister is really the example of someone where his entire life involves helping one of his older siblings. He doesn't do much for himself. His purpose and contribution to the story aren't really independent of the characters he framed his life around.

Finally, she has never made a specific wish for what she wants to do. She wonders the possibilities. Wanting to see her family is not the same as wanting to spend the rest of her life in their service being of any use to them that she can.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Because that is turning her into a codependent little helper whose function in the story is x character's sidekick.

As was mentioned earlier Arya has expressed desires to do things in life that don't involve revolving her life around someone else.

When she has her little talk with Ned she doesn't ask him how can I help Robb or Jon. She wonders what she can do besides the path that is set out for her. She wants to find her own path.

That is what she is doing now. The point really isn't about her staying with the FM or not but that she is making choices for herself.

Also, as I've said these theories involve her either doing the dirty work while the other character is the one who is the figurehead and gets to do the things they want in life. Or she's in their court in a scenario where they're ruling and she's doing things that she's never said that she wanted to do but is being denied the possible paths that she wondered if she could do.

& as I've said Kevan Lannister is really the example of someone where his entire life involves helping one of his older siblings. He doesn't do much for himself. His purpose and contribution to the story aren't really independent of the characters he framed his life around.

Finally, she has never made a specific wish for what she wants to do. She wonders the possibilities. Wanting to see her family is not the same as wanting to spend the rest of her life in their service being of any use to them that she can.

Yeah, I guess you're right. (:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

<snip>

Flowering in this world, I take to mean just beyond menses, but the physical and mental maturation, which seems pretty likely for Arya given she was around twelve at the end of aDwD.

As to the relationship of this topic about something thats an entirely natural process, to a girl who has successfully hidden her [identity], blending in with the crowd is the impact it has on her [ability] to stay hidden.

<snip>

How this topic is being discussed, at least the way I perceive it, is how long will she be able to hide herself, her form, thus keeping her "invisible" in a world where a lone attractive female could lose her freedom, if not her life.

And if she develops a form similar to Cats, she definitely will have a difficult time trying to disguise herself like a man no matter how short she keeps her hair, and I don't think they had sports bras in those days.

<snip>

Those can be real stumbling blocks for an adult female still trying to pass as a man.

As far as the rest of the "process," goes:

Will she embrace it, roll with it, and use it to her advantage, i.e., masquerading as a famed Braavosi Courtesan in the style of the Venetian Courtesans?

If she does, then from a literary standpoint, it takes her somewhat out of the role of the unconventional female, and puts her more in line with the traditional, Westerosi female using her looks and face to get what she wants.

That she is lethal underneath all the satins still keeps her on the "Sucker Punch" list I suppose.

<snip>

In all of this, her safety has depended upon being able to blend in and disappear. The maturation process will have an impact on that in one form, or another.

There seems to be a widely held misconception on this board that a mature woman (read: one with big boobs) can't pass as a man. Of course she can – all she has to do is strap those puppies down (people were binding breasts well before the invention of sports bras) or simply go bra-less under a baggy top – breasts are a lot less obvious when they're not served up on a platter by Victoria's Secret. Then that woman has to stop doing all the plucking and primping that women do to look feminine. The fact is that women without the benefit of tweezers, wax, long coiffed hair – on the head only – corsets, high-heels and all that other stuff pretty much look like men.

But all that's really beside the point. Arya's safety may have depended upon her being able to blend in and disappear, but it didn't depend on her passing as a man or a boy, it depended on her ability to blend in with the common people and become Nan or Salty or Cat of the Canals or Blind Beth. She's also already prepared to deal with the threats Westeros holds for an attractive female – she's learning how to make herself ugly with makeup and magic, and going armed.

The clothes she wore were rags, faded and fraying, but warm clean rags for all that. Under them she hid three knives—one in a boot, one up a sleeve, one sheathed at the small of her back. Braavosi were a kindly folk, by and large, more like to help the poor blind beggar girl than try to do her harm, but there were always a few bad ones who might see her as someone they could safely rob or rape. The blades were for them, though so far the blind girl had not been forced to use them. A cracked wooden begging bowl and belt of hempen rope completed her garb.

Furthermore, other characters in the book show that a woman can be mature, attractive, sexually active and still be unconventional. The best example of such a woman is Asha; she's hot, she's a pirate, she wants to be king of the Ironborn and she uses her expertise and not her pussy to achieve her goals. I'd rather see Arya follow Asha's example to get what she wants rather than become some Cersei wannabe or "cross paths" with Sansa, whatever that means. (To date, as far as I can tell, Sansa hasn't used her feminine wiles on anyone.)

On the other hand, if Arya does receive some training as a courtesan (manners only, please) she may be able to use her sexuality to get what she wants successfully, unlike Cersei, for example, who winds up being mauled by a lot of low-rent losers without getting a lot in return.