The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[Fender]

I might have to mention that this discussion has become kind of mostly speculation about the fate of Jon, and isn't really connected to Arya herself anymore.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I haven't really looked at what other people are saying, but is anyone else slightly skeeved at the use of the term "flowering," given its implied meaning in the story?

Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but it weirds me out.

ETA: *looks at Winter's Knight's first post, whistles and walks out*

[Quiet Isle]

I haven't really looked at what other people are saying, but is anyone else slightly skeeved at the use of the term "flowering," given its implied meaning in the story?

Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but it weirds me out.

ETA: *looks at Winter's Knight's first post, whistles and walks out*

you missed some good posts in here.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

you missed some good posts in here.

That doesn't mean I can't find the entire concept and the way the question was framed creepy and inappropriate.

[Quiet Isle]

That doesn't mean I can't find the entire concept and the way the question was framed creepy and inappropriate.

you can think anything you want to. so can we.

[Fender]

That doesn't mean I can't find the entire concept and the way the question was framed creepy and inappropriate.

To be fair, it's a term frequently used in the books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To be fair, it's a term frequently used in the books.

... That's kind of my point — it's used frequently in the books to refer to pretty specific developments.

[Isalie]

I never ever thought of Sandor as kidnapping arya. not really. yes, i know his excuse was to try to use her to get a place in another house, but i really saw it mainly as trying to keep her from getting killed first.

He wanted to protect her from Dondarrion?

Regarding that other discussion, if all that's left is some very misguided accusations of me wanting Arya to be a good little girl, I'm out.

[Cruella]

16th century Vienna

You mean Venice? And yes, the influences are absolutely transparent.

[Alia of the knife]

You mean Venice? And yes, the influences are absolutely transparent.

YES, I did mean Venice. :dunce: :)

[Alia of the knife]

Okay, I'm not really sure how others are perceiving the term "flowering."

This is the example that struck me in terms of Aryas path and her ability to stay in the "shadows"

"Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhh, had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon?

This obviously was about Cersei, but if Arya matures the same way, then it will have an impact, especially as we are given the comparisons of her to the beautiful Lyanna.

Flowering in this world, I take to mean just beyond menses, but the physical and mental maturation, which seems pretty likely for Arya given she was around twelve at the end of aDwD.

As to the relationship of this topic about something thats an entirely natural process, to a girl who has successfully hidden her idenity, blending in with the crowd is the impact it has on her ablility to stay hidden.

Even as young as she was, Gendry still guessed she was a girl, and he's not the sharpest tool in the box. And though it was not in the books, but in the show,Tywin guessed Arya was a female, and actually thought it was obvious.

How this topic is being discussed, at least the way I perceive it, is how long will she be able to hide herself, her form, thus keeping her "invisible" in a world where a lone attractive female could lose her freedom, if not her life.

And if she develops a form similar to Cats, she definitely will have a difficult time trying to disguise herself like a man no matter how short she keeps her hair, and I don't think they had sports bras in those days.

She also in a group of men will run the risk of having to bathe with them, make water with them, etc.

Privacy is a luxury of our own modern world given that in those days, strangers slept in the same bed unless you had the coin for private rooms.

Those can be real stumbling blocks for an adult female still trying to pass as a man.

As far as the rest of the "process," goes:

Will she embrace it, roll with it, and use it to her advantage, i.e., masquerading as a famed Braavosi Courtesan in the style of the Venetian Courtesans?

If she does, then from a literary standpoint, it takes her somewhat out of the role of the unconventional female, and puts her more in line with the traditional, Westerosi female using her looks and face to get what she wants.

That she is lethal underneath all the satins still keeps her on the "Sucker Punch" list I suppose.

Will she freak out and do something extreme and ask the FM to stop the process, thus turning her into something like the Waif, which I find that concept actually more creepy.

Or, will she be indifferent and just try to not let it interfere with her goal?

IMHO, I think it could be a little of the former, but most of the latter.

In all of this, her safety has depended upon being able to blend in and disappear. The maturation process will have an impact on that in one form, or another.

Edit and clarification: Strangers often slept in the same bed at Inns while on the road.

[Quiet Isle]

Okay, I'm not really sure how others are perceiving the term "flowering."

This is the example that struck me in terms of Aryas path and her ability to stay in the "shadows"

"Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhh, had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon?

This obviously was about Cersei, but if Arya matures the same way, then it will have an impact, especially as we are given the comparisons of her to the beautiful Lyanna.

Flowering in this world, I take to mean just beyond menses, but the physical and mental maturation, which seems pretty likely for Arya given she was around twelve at the end of aDwD.

As to the relationship of this topic about something thats an entirely natural process, to a girl who has successfully hidden her idenity, blending in with the crowd is the impact it has on her ablility to stay hidden.

Even as young as she was, Gendry still guessed she was a girl, and he's not the sharpest tool in the box. And though it was not in the books, but in the show,Tywin guessed Arya was a female, and actually thought it was obvious.

How this topic is being discussed, at least the way I perceive it, is how long will she be able to hide herself, her form, thus keeping her "invisible" in a world where a lone attractive female could lose her freedom, if not her life.

And if she develops a form similar to Cats, she definitely will have a difficult time trying to disguise herself like a man no matter how short she keeps her hair, and I don't think they had sports bras in those days.

She also in a group of men will run the risk of having to bathe with them, make water with them, etc.

Privacy is a luxury of our own modern world given that in those days, strangers slept in the same bed unless you had the coin for private rooms.

Those can be real stumbling blocks for an adult female still trying to pass as a man.

As far as the rest of the "process," (we'll call it that for comfys sake) goes:

Will she embrace it, roll with it, and use it to her advantage, i.e., masquerading as a famed Braavosi Courtesan in the style of the Venetian Courtesans?

If she does, then from a literary standpoint, it takes her somewhat out of the role of the unconventional female, and puts her more in line with the traditional, Westerosi female using her looks and face to get what she wants.

That she is lethal underneath all the satins still keeps her on the "Sucker Punch" list I suppose.

Will she freak out and do something extreme and ask the FM to stop the process, thus turning her into something like the Waif, which I find that concept actually more creepy.

Or, will she be indifferent and just try to not let it interfere with her goal?

IMHO, I think it could be a little of the former, but most of the latter.

In all of this, her safety has depended upon being able to blend in and disappear. The maturation process will have an impact on that in one form, or another.

well i started this and alia nailed the intent. thanks.

[Alia of the knife]

It's been a LOOOONG time since i read Dune, but I get it.

as to Jon heading for the Boltons, (and this is where i see he and arya potentially meeting back up) what resources is he going to have to "mop up"? Stannis?

Stannis is possible, but if his "reawakening" is anything like Danys, he may have resources coming to him.

And your welcome. :)

[Quiet Isle]

Stannis is possible, but if his "reawakening" is anything like Danys, he may have resources coming to him.

so.... if you are speaking of Jon's reawakening, I assume you mean COTF? and by gods i think he's heading to bran. do you?

[Alia of the knife]

so.... if you are speaking of Jon's reawakening, I assume you mean COTF? and by gods i think he's heading to bran. do you?

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that given Jons heritage and who he most likely is, he could have a reawakening even similar to Danys where they try and burn his body to either keep him from turning, or hide what they did.

I do think Bran will be the "main frame" that brings them all together evenutally.

Another "Dune" reference :P , but I see Bran coming to Bloodraven in the same way that Pauls Mother, Lady Jessica took the old Reverend Mothers place.

In other words, Bran is partly there so Bloodraven can pass on.

[Quiet Isle]

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that given Jons heritage and who he most likely is, he could have a reawakening even similar to Danys where they try and burn his body to either keep him from turning, or hide what they did.

I do think Bran will be the "main frame" that brings them all together evenutally.

Another "Dune" reference :P , but I see Bran coming to Bloodraven in the same way that Pauls Mother, Lady Jessica took the old Reverend Mothers place.

In other words, Bran is partly there so Bloodraven can pass on.

Ok, let me say this.

i Don't think they'll burn his body. I think he will be resurrected and move on to the North as the Last Hero archetype.

He has to learn of his heritage. Aemon left him a book, bookmarked. I still wonder what it said. It had to cryptic, since Clydas marked it but Aemon would not have marked something clearly telling Jon who he was.

so we know that aemon has left a trail, and sam has to fill it in. with knowledge from the Citadel.

and perhaps Howland Reed to fill in some other blanks.

my son and i have said that Jon will never believe who he really is without it coming from several trustworthy sources. I wouldn't. would you? it would take a village to enable me to wrap my head around this history.

as to Bran. yes, BR has got to pass on. just like Maester Aemon. But if we contrast Aemon and BR (who i think certainly communicated), Aemon is more settled, has his stuff together, isn't as DESPERATE as BR is. Does that make BR evil (ha) or is it just that BR knows that he does not have much time. Aemon's time has passed (egg, I dreamed I was old JUST MAKES ME WANT TO SCREAM like watching the feather in Forrest Gump - life went on), but BR knows he still has a bit of time to do this thing. whatever it is. so, What is it? and is it for the Realm? not a narcissistic play in this Game of Thrones?

[Fender]

Okay, I'm not really sure how others are perceiving the term "flowering."

This is the example that struck me in terms of Aryas path and her ability to stay in the "shadows"

"Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhh, had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon?

This obviously was about Cersei, but if Arya matures the same way, then it will have an impact, especially as we are given the comparisons of her to the beautiful Lyanna.

Flowering in this world, I take to mean just beyond menses, but the physical and mental maturation, which seems pretty likely for Arya given she was around twelve at the end of aDwD.

As to the relationship of this topic about something thats an entirely natural process, to a girl who has successfully hidden her idenity, blending in with the crowd is the impact it has on her ablility to stay hidden.

Even as young as she was, Gendry still guessed she was a girl, and he's not the sharpest tool in the box. And though it was not in the books, but in the show,Tywin guessed Arya was a female, and actually thought it was obvious.

How this topic is being discussed, at least the way I perceive it, is how long will she be able to hide herself, her form, thus keeping her "invisible" in a world where a lone attractive female could lose her freedom, if not her life.

And if she develops a form similar to Cats, she definitely will have a difficult time trying to disguise herself like a man no matter how short she keeps her hair, and I don't think they had sports bras in those days.

She also in a group of men will run the risk of having to bathe with them, make water with them, etc.

Privacy is a luxury of our own modern world given that in those days, strangers slept in the same bed unless you had the coin for private rooms.

Those can be real stumbling blocks for an adult female still trying to pass as a man.

As far as the rest of the "process," goes:

Will she embrace it, roll with it, and use it to her advantage, i.e., masquerading as a famed Braavosi Courtesan in the style of the Venetian Courtesans?

If she does, then from a literary standpoint, it takes her somewhat out of the role of the unconventional female, and puts her more in line with the traditional, Westerosi female using her looks and face to get what she wants.

That she is lethal underneath all the satins still keeps her on the "Sucker Punch" list I suppose.

Will she freak out and do something extreme and ask the FM to stop the process, thus turning her into something like the Waif, which I find that concept actually more creepy.

Or, will she be indifferent and just try to not let it interfere with her goal?

IMHO, I think it could be a little of the former, but most of the latter.

In all of this, her safety has depended upon being able to blend in and disappear. The maturation process will have an impact on that in one form, or another.

Edit and clarification: Strangers often slept in the same bed at Inns while on the road.

I don't understand some of your points. As far as I can tell, Arya is beyond acting like a boy. She did so when she was with Yoren to seem like she fit in and not stand out, and she tried to maintain the facade when she was caught by Gregor partly because she thought that it might spare her some atrocities, and because she was still trying to hide her identity entirely. But once the cat was out of the bag, not once did she attempt to pass as a boy; she would even immediately correct any who would make the mistake.

So taking Arya's attitude in consideration, as well as the FM's perceived tendencies, I see no reason why she would want to disguise herself as a man. She knows that the large majority of the servants of the Many-Faced god are men, so why not send a man to do a mission intended for a man? I don't remember seeing Jaqen changing his face and appearance to transform into a comely woman, so why would we expect Arya to do so? She's one of the few female members, and she seems to have quite a lot of potential. Might as well use her whenever a woman would be more suited for the situation. And screw the sports bra, let all her womanly charms hang out; eroticization is a woman's largest agency over men, after all.

[Quiet Isle]

I don't understand some of your points. As far as I can tell, Arya is beyond acting like a boy. She did so when she was with Yoren to seem like she fit in and not stand out, and she tried to maintain the facade when she was caught by Gregor partly because she thought that it might spare her some atrocities, and because she was still trying to hide her identity entirely. But once the cat was out of the bag, not once did she attempt to pass as a boy; she would even immediately correct any who would make the mistake.

So taking Arya's attitude in consideration, as well as the FM's perceived tendencies, I see no reason why she would want to disguise herself as a man. She knows that the large majority of the servants of the Many-Faced god are men, so why not send a man to do a mission intended for a man? I don't remember seeing Jaqen changing his face and appearance to transform into a comely woman, so why would we expect Arya to do so? She's one of the few female members, and she seems to have quite a lot of potential. Might as well use her whenever a woman would be more suited for the situation. And screw the sports bra, let all her womanly charms hang out; eroticization is a woman's largest agency over men, after all.

i can certainly see what you are saying, but arya is not used to using that. she's not been trained to do that. and here is where sansa and arya's arcs merge and overtake each other. Arya might have to take on a different persona to survive. a woman's legacy. and sansa may have to take on a dark arc. It's going to be a bumpy ride. and so fascinating. and that's why we are so invested in this epic!

[Lord Damian]

I do not see how it will impact anything unless she is the last stark around and must marry to carry on the house.

[Fender]

i can certainly see what you are saying, but arya is not used to using that. she's not been trained to do that. and here is where sansa and arya's arcs merge and overtake each other. Arya might have to take on a different persona to survive. a woman's legacy. and sansa may have to take on a dark arc. It's going to be a bumpy ride. and so fascinating. and that's why we are so invested in this epic!

Of course Arya is not used to that. Did you ever really doubt that using womanly charms would be a part of FM training? It seems like an incredibly useful tool to approach victims unthreateningly and place them in vulnerable positions. As soon as the KM mentioned making Arya a courtesan, it was obvious that the FM have contacts even there, if they can make such an offer so lightly. Thus, of course Arya would receive such teachings, if she remains with the FM long enough. Did you actually have any doubts?