The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[Le Cygne]

nm

[Pod The Impaler]

I agree. Arya seems something of a prodigy when it comes to killing. It's not just her physical skill, it's her the way her mind works. She is sharp as a razor, manages to deal with her fear well, and seems to take command naturally. Sometimes it's funny to remember it's a little girl we're reading about - sometimes funnier when we see her have to remind herself of that.

[ShowOverBooks]

Considering the way the story is going, she doesn't have the time to become any sort of great fighter. She's still a scrawny 12 year old girl with only minimal former training with a blade.

Yep, but I don't think a lot of people here want think realistically about her.

[kephv]

Yep, but I don't think a lot of people here want think realistically about her.

I don't know about that. There's a lot of serious discussions about her -- ones that don't involve her going on single handed sword wielding killing sprees or becoming queen of Westeros -- but yes, people do tend to go off at times.

[tom_saxon]

Well I have only read so far as I said. I don't see her being queen of westeros, just perhaps queen of the north. And I don't see her going on singlehanded sword killing sprees so much as killing very many people through multiple methods- only some of them being by her own sword. She really already is and has been on a killing spree and I can't see any argument or idea that could legitmately make the point that this will suddenly simply stop. My point is that the killing will continue and increase. No?

[tom_saxon]

Yep, but I don't think a lot of people here want think realistically about her.

I read non-fiction when I want to think extremely realistically. I read FANTASY LITERATURE when I want escape and FANTASIZE. Has GRRM somehow transformed his imagined world from a gritty and relatively realistic FANTASY SERIES to a work of non-fiction, or even to a work of fictionalized history?

No. He hasn't.

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of development, Arya is one of the characters whose likely futures have been foreshadowed through deliberation of the Authors intent.

- The naming of the direwolves of all the Stark children symbolize in some part their inner selves, and perhaps are gifts of the old gods as guardians.

- Her strong warging capabilities.

- Her strong spirit, even going back to the Crypts when all the Stark children ventured down and Jon jumped out covered in flour, scaring them- except for Arya who reached out pinched him.

- Being likened to a long-dead, but beautiful and cherished relative.

- Her "Stark Appearance," as differeniated from the rest of her siblings, (expept Jon), thus the allusion to her being "most" Stark, and most North.

However, as one poster stated, something will have to happen with her pretty quickly as it will become increasingly hard to convince the Reader that a twelve-year old, scrawny girl will be this dangerous.

Martin will either have to give her the same treatment as the Waif, which I think would be underwhelming, and remembering the existance of Anne Rices "Claudia," (the vampire who would always be a child), Aryas ability to be independent would be compromised and her role, limited.

Claudia was a powerful creature as well, but considered an abomination and could never be without a caretaker.

It seems the Waif doesn't venture too far beyond the bounds of the FM and the House of the Black and White.

Also, constant killing doesn't lend anything to the story, because after awhile it becomes gratuitous and even boring. Her kills are going to have to touch the Reader either in a positive way, or a negative way.

So far, I can justify them as they align with the plots.

Her first kill was the boy in KL who was going to turn her in, and I think the TV show alluded that before he did that, he was going to violate her. She made a decision in a split second to save herself from both rape and being turned over to the Lannisters.

I can't argue that.

The other kill that stands out is the deserter from the NW, however, in that sense, I think she was trying to be like Ned. Had she been raised anywhere else, she likely wouldn't have noticed him.

But, to be fair to her, the environment of the story right now is awash with "killers" as everyone is just trying to hang on and survive. Who knows what Gendry will be like later on, and the sweet, shy Edric Dayne Arya shared a sunset with, what will he be like after spending time with Lady Stoneheart, and being amongst the horror of war and twisted mysticism?

He could turn out to be a cross between Ser Arthur and Darkstar.

The world they're existing in now is even more brutal than the "usual" Medieval brutality.

For Arya and death, it's now about learning from the FM, and passing their "initiations," and unlearning all the lessons Ned taught her about taking life.

However, the one thing that comes with "flowering" is rebellion, questioning, etc., which she already does, but will most likely be emphasized by that "passing" into the next phase of her life, and questioning the motives of the FM, and perhaps stumbling onto some disturbing truths as her Father did in KL, could be the thing that puts her at odds with them.

It will also be interesting to see how puberty affects her Warging.

All organizations have rogues, and I'd bet the FM also have those that got away that they can't find.

Maybe Oberyn himself experimented with the FM and got away.

(And good catch to the person who compared Arya to Oberyn).

However, if Martins intent is to keep Arya with the FM, then it will be a plot device to put her into either Aegon, or Danys orbit, since those threads make the most literary sense, given the origins of the FM and the Dragonlords.

But again, even that device probably serves to move her story beyond the FM and back to Westeros, Jon and Sansa, especially if Bloodraven and Bran are running interference.

But keeping her in Braavos with the FM killing Jon Doe 1,2, and 3 doesn't seem to do much for her story arc IMHO.

[Fender]

All organizations have rogues, and I'd bet the FM also have those that got away that they can't find.

To be fair, it's often been questioned whether Jaqen himself is a rogue agent; he seems to act in many ways counter to what Arya is currently learning. Unless it's simply because more experienced FMs have a greater understanding of their purpose and the goals of the organization, which allows them to proceed as they believe best.

[Le Cygne]

True, you have to run with fantasy, we know the ages are off compared to our modern world, in a lot of ways, so why not imagine it's a different world, because it is. We don't have warging, and dragons, and a massive wall of ice, and giants, and white walkers, and direwolves, and weirwoods, and three eyed crows, and... so we can't imagine Arya becoming a bit of a swashbuckler?

[tom_saxon]

True, you have to run with fantasy, we know the ages are off compared to our modern world, in a lot of ways, so why not imagine it's a different world, because it is. We don't have warging, and dragons, and a massive wall of ice, and giants, and white walkers, and direwolves, and weirwoods, and three eyed crows, and... so we can't imagine Arya becoming a bit of a swashbuckler?

I can imagine that anyways :) Rob was what 14 or 15? Arya is not so far away from that.

[Pod The Impaler]

Also, constant killing doesn't lend anything to the story, because after awhile it becomes gratuitous and even boring. Her kills are going to have to touch the Reader either in a positive way, or a negative way.

So far, I can justify them as they align with the plots.

Her first kill was the boy in KL who was going to turn her in, and I think the TV show alluded that before he did that, he was going to violate her. She made a decision in a split second to save herself from both rape and being turned over to the Lannisters.

I can't argue that.

The other kill that stands out is the deserter from the NW, however, in that sense, I think she was trying to be like Ned. Had she been raised anywhere else, she likely wouldn't have noticed him.

I see Arya's killings as a progression - each seems to take her into a darker frame of mind, and a new context for killing.

1 - Arya kills a stableboy who tries to capture her. This kill was totally reflexive, and done in personal self-defense.

2 - Kills some people (unconfirmed, but lethal force nonetheless) at the battle of the holdfast where Yoren died. This was also self-defensive, but more collective (she and Gendry were in the most personal danger, but all of the group was to some degree).

3A - Kills Chiswick indirectly (via Jaqen), because of his participation in a brutal rape and after-the-fact boasting about it. Chiswick and the rest of Gregor's men were a rape threat to her and others as well.

3B - Kills Weese indirectly (via Jaqen), because Weese physically abused her (and other captives) and threatened her with maiming.

- The key points of #3 are that it is a transition from dealing with immediate / active threats to dealing with threats with clear potential to harm her.

4 - Weasel soup - indirectly kills (via Jaqen) a number of enemy guards to free northern prisoners, thus seemingly reducing her general threat level, but also because she is on the northern side. Done with some premeditation.

5 - Personally kills a Bolton guard, to enable escape from a general potential threat (staying at Harrenhal). The guard would have sounded an alarm, so it is a kill of "necessity", rather impersonal. A calculated kill, not impulsive.

6A - Personally kills The Tickler. Some of this was necessity of battle, but what we see here is and act of wrath and vengeance.

6B - Personally kills the squire who was at the inn as well. First instance of a coup de grace kill, bringing death for mercy.

7 - Kills Dareon of the Night's Watch in Braavos, for desertion / oathbreaking. A premeditated killing, done as an act of judgment and an act of law (extrajudicial only in the sense she was not really an agent of that law). She had nothing directly personal against Dareon, though it may have been that by deserting he betrayed The Watch (and thus Jon)

8 - Kills the insurance merchant in Braavos. First example of a "following orders" killing, done for no other reason than this. Completely impersonal, completely premeditated. Had the option to back out, but put her allegiance to the FM first.

* I left out any actions while she is with the BWB. I also left out her not killing (for mercy) The Hound.

Most times we talk about Arya's killing ability (which I think is quite advanced) in terms of skill. This progression shows an increasing degree of willingness to take lives. It has gradually gone from reflexive personal self-defense to impersonal and premeditated kills done for allegiance and principle. Arya is quite hardened to the idea of killing - this does not say she has become deranged, but like an assassin or soldier she is no longer really a "civilian" or non-combatant. She has joined her father, Robb, and Jon in this aspect.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think going to her siblings now would be a good thing. They have their own story lines. She would never learn about independence and having to grow up and make choices for herself that way if she just revolves her life around other main characters.

She's making her choice now. Maybe she will decide to leave the FM or continue to stay and that's fine. I think her choices should be respected whatever they may be.

She's maturing and I don't think it's a matter of losing her identity. It's her deciding who she is now and who she wants to be in the future.

To change the subject I think using other female characters to try and see how she would act is one way to go but at the same time it's pointless because no matter how much similarities Arya may have with another character she is her own person. I can't gage from their actions how she would react to sexual development. She is not the same person as them and has had different life experiences.

For example, she gets compared to Asha and Arianne but I don't think that she will be like them. Asha only isn't married because she can't marry the man she wants. Arianne isn't married because she still hasn't been able to get a match yet. They are sexually free but it's not completely out of choice that they aren't settled down imo. I can see them being married but not Arya.

I was thinking of her comparisons to Visenya who was a seductress and Daena who slept with Aegon IV. IIRC she's been compared to Shiera on this board as well who was another dangerous seductress who had many suitors.

She gets compared to Catelyn a lot but she is not her mother. Catelyn seemed dutiful and faithful to Ned. I doubt she's been with anyone else but her husband. From the No Featherbed for Me song I get the feeling that Arya will not be like that.

There's the whole wolves mate for life bit. That may be true but then you have Brandon Stark who Arya is a lot like in actions that slept around. Arya is also given feline qualities and they aren't as monogamous but there's no guarantee on what Arya would be like.

Personally, I could see her being monogamous in the serial sense. They settle down for a relationship. It stops after a certain period then it's on to the next one. It becomes a cycle.

Then again I don't see hanging out in brothels encouraging her to want to be monogamous. If anything her life in Braavos would allow her to have more lax views towards sex/relationship than if she had her parent's values.

I don't see her being in a relationship though because of her age. At most (if that) she may get an indisputable crush and not a situation where her feelings are debatable (Gendry).

[tom_saxon]

But keeping her in Braavos with the FM killing Jon Doe 1,2, and 3 doesn't seem to do much for her story arc IMHO.

The faster she is out of Essos, the better imo. Would hate to see her sent against Daeny, and I can imagine things going in that direction if she stays on Essos for long.

[Lyanna Stark]

I read non-fiction when I want to think extremely realistically. I read FANTASY LITERATURE when I want escape and FANTASIZE. Has GRRM somehow transformed his imagined world from a gritty and relatively realistic FANTASY SERIES to a work of non-fiction, or even to a work of fictionalized history?

No. He hasn't.

A sweet summer child. :)

For being a work of fantasy, ASOIAF does take on far more dimensions that the average though, and to treat it the same way would be a disservice. While it certainly provides escapism (but so does works of fictionalised history) it's also written to be read and re-read several times, it has depth, layers and character development mostly unheard of in other works of Fantasy. It challenges us to consider issues of morality, of culture, of gender bias, etc.

So while it is correct that it provides a very good story, it also provides so much more. To treat is only as escapism is then very reductive. This thread serves to highlight some facets of the fact that it's got far more to it than simple escapism.

EDIT: link fail fixed

[Isalie]

7 - Kills Dareon of the Night's Watch in Braavos, for desertion / oathbreaking. A premeditated killing, done as and act of judgement and an act of law (extrajudicial only in the sense she was not really an agent of that law). She had nothing directly personal against Dareon, though it may have been that by deserting he betrayed The Watch (and thus Jon)

I think this is wrong. She sees him and don't think much of it, then she hears of Lysa being killed by a singer, and decides that Dareon needs be killed for oath breaking. I think she killed out of anger.

Would love seeing Jon in Winterfell, his wildling princess as his wife and Arya as his Oberyn ;)

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I read non-fiction when I want to think extremely realistically. I read FANTASY LITERATURE when I want escape and FANTASIZE. Has GRRM somehow transformed his imagined world from a gritty and relatively realistic FANTASY SERIES to a work of non-fiction, or even to a work of fictionalized history?

No. He hasn't.

Preach, brother!

My eyes are strained from rolling whenever I read posters calling something "unrealistic" or saying that they like character x more than character y because character x is easier to identify with.

Right – looking for reality in a story that's got dragons, quasi-alien super villains, seeing-eye trees that serve as human life support, humans mind-melding with animals, 57 varieties of the undead, face-changing assassins, dreamwalkers, shadow babies, glass candles, fatal horns, flaming hands of death, among other things. Fantasy is fantasy because the world is not ours and the people are not like us, and I say thank the gods for that.

ASOIAF is a series intended for the mass market, the comic-con crowd and the HBO audience. It's meant to be a good story that will make money for the author, not to provide a philosophy of life or the keys to heaven.

I also say that people who are uncomfortable with the idea of girl assassins really need to watch more anime. I suggest Gunslinger Girls as a good place to start.

Would love seeing Jon in Winterfell, his wildling princess as his wife and Arya as his Oberyn ;)

And I sincerely hope that Arya doesn't get stuck as the side-kick or clean-up woman for one of her siblings. IMO Westeros doesn't offer her dick -- unless she gets Winterfell, which I believe is unlikely. I hope she goes there, gets her wolves, kills whoever needs to be killed to avenge the Stark honor, says hello to whatever sibling is nearby and then gets the hell out before someone succeeds in sucking the life out of her for the sake of a happy family Hollywood ending.

Stay weird, Arya.

[Le Cygne]

nm

[plurabel]

That's not a blanket statement, it's a bloody tautology is what it is. (I know it was not meant to be so, but that is what was written.) The negative half could be anything: a speck of dust, a red giant star, a kangaroo, or what have you. Yes, injecting a bit of symbolic logic into this discussion is crass, but I did teach the subject once, and so was tempted.

just a nod, as I, too, sometimes feel tempted to point out logic problems in natural language speech. I never taught logic but once studied quite a bit of it, now I can't even do proper tableau calculus anymore. eh... off topic I know. it just always pleases me to find others who take an interest in logic :cheers:

and I do agree with others here that tomboy isn't a clear-cut concept. girls can play with their male brothers (or even her sisters, of course), for instance, and be all rough and dirty and athletic and on the next day go on a playdate with their school friends and dress up or dress their barbies up or what have you. you could say such a girl is not a tomboy per se, fine, but where do you draw the line? I think arya seems to be all those things: tomboy, athletic, potentially curious about boys (emotionally and, one day, sexually), confused, secure, and the list goes on. so, to sum it up, a well-written and well-developed character that is fortunately more than gender-related adjectives.

[Isalie]

And I sincerely hope that Arya doesn't get stuck as the side-kick or clean-up woman for one of her siblings. IMO Westeros doesn't offer her dick -- unless she gets Winterfell, which I believe is unlikely. I hope she goes there, gets her wolves, kills whoever needs to be killed to avenge the Stark honor, says hello to whatever sibling is nearby and then gets the hell out before someone succeeds in sucking the life out of her for the sake of a happy family Hollywood ending.

Stay weird, Arya.

We must be reading different books :D At this point in the series, the one thing I look forward to the most is Arya meeting some of her kin. All she wants is to be part of something somewhere, but she has had nothing but betrayals and disappointments. It seems to me that the place she is at right now is trying it best to suck everything out of her, barring her fine ability to murder. Anywho, to each their own, but I would be very disappointed if she doesn't have a heartfelt reunion, some stories need a payoff.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya wants to see her family but as I mentioned earlier she has also expressed desires of her own of what she perhaps wanted to do in life and what she wanted which is important.

To compare her to Oberyn he actually traveled and had a life of his own before he decided to help his brother. I imagine helping Doran was something that he chose to do.

To have no other goals for herself besides helping her family is more Kevan Lannister who was just Tywin's shadow.

To me personally theories that are desperate for her to return to other main characters just reek of I like x character and how can Arya be of use to them.

ETA: Like the KG or QG theories I mentioned. Arya didn't even say that she wanted to do that but then there are theories that say she would be great in Jon or Sansa's KG or QG. That would make her happy. I don't see textual evidence for that.

Or other theories that say that she can be the muscle or brawn for the Starks. She's gaining so much skills and is being educated. Why would she just simply want do that? That would be a waste imo.

Most don't seem to be desperate for other characters to stop what they're doing and go to Arya. They're allowed to be independent. She should be able to as well.