The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya already has had instances where she found a male is attractive. Jaqen several times, the FM acolyte, Dareon, etc. She just doesn't desire any of them.

I'm skeptical if he will be doing the Dany thing over again as I think he knows that Dany being 13 was seen as questionable which is why I think Arya needing a pretty face will be much more toned down than it would have been had the gap still been in place.

She hangs around Lanna who obviously had to have sex young but I think 12 is considered too young. One of the mermaids was 13 but I don't think they have actual sex. The Merling Queen does.

Arya also may or may not even get her period at 12 unless he wants to use that age as the benchmark. I'm not sure exactly how long she's been 12.

[Where Boars Glow]

She-wolves. My last thoughts about Lyanna and Sansa, Catelyn and Arya are about their resemblance. People say that Arya have taken her fierce and pation after her mother, but I suppose it's Lyanna's chacracter. Remember, how Lyanna have protected Reed at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

But Sansa as a full Stark woman? She's a little bird and remember the emblem of LF. May be she will play for Starks, but step by step, everything from her Stark side have been killed (as they killed Lady). She's not anymore Tully (her mother well-trained her in principles of their women) and the less resembling to Stark of all 6 children even in the beginning of tale.

I thought her idea of stepping up for the Starks was by telling any plans they may have to Stark enemies?

[Daenerys is my queen]

It would be interesting. I think mostly she'll find it a nuisance. She might start developing some crushes and things like that but that might not happen till later. She has more important things to think about after all.

[ShowOverBooks]

Og, jolly good topic! Why didn't I ever discuss this with everyone when my little sister was eleven? I can just imagine how much she would have appreciated that. I really missed my chance there, didn't I. Well I can redeem this now, can't I? That is, if the freaking MODS doesn't go ahead and DELETE THIS topic!

There must be a level of interest in these books that crosses the border into unhealthy. I'm just imagining what my wife would think if she saw me start this topic...

:ack:

WOW. Baffling.

Seeing people violently murdered is fine, but talking about a natural process without which none of us would even be alive is...OBSCENE?

Baffling.

[Where Boars Glow]

WOW. Baffling.

Seeing people violently murdered is fine, but talking about a natural process without which none of us would even be alive is...OBSCENE?

Baffling.

awww i was going to support you and then i read your name :P

[ShowOverBooks]

Can you IMAGINE the shitstorm that would erupt if Martin wrote pubescent Arya as wanting to settle down and make babies? I could legitimately see him getting death threats.

[ShowOverBooks]

If she flowers, and says, "Hey! I want to be a lady and rule by my lord and provide him with many sons," it completely ruins what GRRM has worked Arya up to being.

No more than having her die would.

Is she unkillable?

[ShowOverBooks]

Some insightful posts in this thread. I think something that is interesting is that while some readers label Arya as essentially a boy, she herself objects to being considered one. It has always been my impression that she fights against gender roles, not her gender itself. While she does not like the constraints placed upon women in her world, she doesn't seem to want to be a man in the same explicit way that say, Cersei does (which Cersei retains in adulthood.)

That being said, I can see her "flowering" having some effect on her. I am interested to see how her character will develop.

Cersei was actively discouraged from acting 'like a boy', while Arya has been enabled and aided in doing so. By Ned and Yoren in particular.

If Arya had been raised as Cersei was, I think she probably would harbour the very same distaste for her gender.

[ShowOverBooks]

That last sentence made me Lol, since i'm well endowed and have been since 16.

transitioning arya. yes, i think you and Florina are right. It's how you deal with it. and IRONY. i think it will be quite ironic when she becomes a beauty. and how she will transition that factor into her life. I've known beauties who were complete assholes. because of their beauty. i've known plain women who were beautiful because they knew what their lives were about and brought great beauty through their kindness and loving actions to others. i think both sansa and arya are heading that way. beauty is only skin deep. i think they will both be lovely. but internally, well, that's what counts. look to the Hound. god bless him.

Arya's great goal in life is to murder people. There is nothing beautiful in that. She's more like the Hound than she is like Sansa.

[Pod The Impaler]

I still haven't received an answer regarding how Briennes feelings tie into her not wanting to wear traditional women's clothing and following a path expected of her? Robert was crazy obsessed with Lyanna, but he never wore dresses.

Okay, here goes.

Brienne is not a true tomboy because on a deeper level, she does yearn for the traditional southron "feminine" role. She is good at the tomboy / warrior-woman activities, she has the physical and mental capabilities for it, but it's not really where her heart is. In her heart, she's more like Sansa than Arya - naive idealism, courtly love, songs and stories, etc. She yearns to be a woman more like (for example) Margaery Tyrell, but because of her build and looks, that is simply not available, so she has taken a path where she adapts to what physical gifts she has been given.

As a result of her martial prowess, Brienne is more confident in her ability to defend herself. Yet, emotionally and socially, she's basically been bullied her whole life, and has little confidence in her very ability to be womanly (by her standards, that is). Nowhere is this more clear than when Brienne pours her heart out to the Elder Brother at the Quiet Isle.

The most clear emotionally commonality Brienne has with Arya is a negative self-image about her looks. (And Arya may yet grow out of that if she realizes her ugliness is a myth, as we've discussed in this thread and others.)

Otherwise, I would not put Brienne down as a true tomboy, but rather a tomboy-by-default.

Arya seems to desire being a warrior woman, and unlike Brienne there is nothing to say she is naturally built for it. She is just combative, ferocious, and quick-to-the-kill. She has the wolf-blood, and whatever environment you'd put her in, she has as warrior's instinct and ferocity. Even Eddard Stark (who wanted a more conventional path for her) understands that about her, and decides not to pointlessly fight it.

[Where Boars Glow]

Arya's great goal in life is to murder people. There is nothing beautiful in that. She's more like the Hound than she is like Sansa.

She only murders people that are in need of it. Like popping zits.

[The Sleeper]

Arya's great goal in life is to murder people. There is nothing beautiful in that. She's more like the Hound than she is like Sansa.

Arya's great goal in life is to be in control of her fate. Killing is the means, not the end.

[jarl the climber]

Arya's great goal in life is to be in control of her fate. Killing is the means, not the end.

Is it? When the FM asked her she did not seem to be so sure what she wanted or why. I guess she still has her enemies list that she prays for but when thats done with, and its just a matter of time really, what then?

[Where Boars Glow]

Is it? When the FM asked her she did not seem to be so sure what she wanted or why. I guess she still has her enemies list that she prays for but when thats done with, and its just a matter of time really, what then?

She is what....12? How many great life goals does she need at a time? 12 year olds...even extremely intelligent and fiesty ones don't tend to make five year plans :)

[The Sleeper]

Is it? When the FM asked her she did not seem to be so sure what she wanted or why. I guess she still has her enemies list that she prays for but when thats done with, and its just a matter of time really, what then?

Of course it is. The one consistent thing about her actions is escaping situations where she is at someone else's mercy. Right now, she is where she wants to be working toward a particualr goal she has chosen herself, which it self hepls her being more independent. What then, is the question why I'm looking forward to seeing Arya growing up.

[jarl the climber]

Of course it is. The one consistent thing about her actions is escaping situations where she is at someone else's mercy. Right now, she is where she wants to be working toward a particualr goal she has chosen herself, which it self hepls her being more independent. What then, is the question why I'm looking forward to seeing Arya growing up.

I was actually responding to another poster so I did not ask you anything. When has Arya said that her goal in life was to be independent? Jon gave her a sword and she wanted to learn how to use it. Ned hired her a tutor when he found out about it. Then she had to flee for her life and people started killing her family anfd freinds. She decided that she wanted vegance, all though for most of the 2 and 3rd books she is trying to get to her family. Then at the end of the 3rd book she uses the iron coin because its the only option she has. Its not clear what her agenda is. At the same time she is losing her identity and becoming no one. She has clearly been told that is the point of the training, that she must give up who she was. How does that lead to independence. She actually has a tendency to be kind of reactionary not idependent.

[Pod The Impaler]

She is what....12? How many great life goals does she need at a time? 12 year olds...even extremely intelligent and fiesty ones don't tend to make five year plans :)

Or maybe she does ?

I lose, you win

I lose, you win

I lose, you win

I lose again

But you're on my five-year plan!

Your time will come

When you least expect it,

Expect it!

The five-year plan

You fucked me over

You did me wrong

You know why

I wrote this song

The five-year plan!

The five-year plan!

Until then, I'll just pretend

That you are still my friend

But in the end, your time will come

When you least expect it,

Expect it!

The five-year plan

I don't forget so easily, no

I'm not so quick to forget

The five-year plan!

I hold a grudge

I live for revenge

The five-year plan!

I win, you lose

I win, you lose

I win!

Lyrics to the song "Five Year Plan" by DRI. \m/ :devil:

[ShowOverBooks]

Arya's great goal in life is to be in control of her fate. Killing is the means, not the end.

Revenge is her motive, not freedom.

[tom_saxon]

What an amazing and entertaining thread! When Arya does have her period and the hormones flow, I see her taking it in stoic stride as she takes everything else that has happened to her. She will at first find it bewildering and perhaps even amusing, but in the end it will not change who she is, it will only further energize who she is becoming. I see the adult Arya as a woman who takes her pleasure where she pleases, not prone to "stupid crushes" or "illusions of romance", yet not also promiscuous or seeking to use her sexuality to her advantage in any way. In my life experience (and yes I know we are talking about a fictional character :P ) young girls who had the attitude of Arya grew up to be strong independent women who enjoyed their gender without making it either a handicap or a weapon. Just my opinion :)

[The Sleeper]

I was actually responding to another poster so I did not ask you anything. When has Arya said that her goal in life was to be independent? Jon gave her a sword and she wanted to learn how to use it. Ned hired her a tutor when he found out about it. Then she had to flee for her life and people started killing her family anfd freinds. She decided that she wanted vegance, all though for most of the 2 and 3rd books she is trying to get to her family. Then at the end of the 3rd book she uses the iron coin because its the only option she has. Its not clear what her agenda is. At the same time she is losing her identity and becoming no one. She has clearly been told that is the point of the training, that she must give up who she was. How does that lead to independence. She actually has a tendency to be kind of reactionary not idependent.

She outright refuses the possibility of being married. She refuses to reveal her identity on numerous occasions as it would mean placing her fate in the hands of people she doesn't know if she can trust. She tries to escape the BWB and was always looking to escape them until she made Beric swear to her that he would return her to her mother. She might have stumbled on the FM, but she stays with them willingly. It's not like she has thought twice before about striking off on her own. And learning the abilities of the FM, sure helps someone be self-reliant. She's reactionary because she hasn't turned twelve yet. That doesn't mean she doesn't have natural tendencies due to her character.