The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[Alia of the knife]

It always wonders me how people find creepy talk about sex topics and have no problem with violence like people getting part of their bodies cut. Puberty is natural part of life as well as menarche to half the world population. Though I would change the name of topic to how body development would affect Arya...

In my opinion the flowerig itself will not have grand impact, probably is something she will be expecting to happen; but being perceived as a woman by those around her would definectly impact in her character. Now some would say that she can disguise herself, but that is true just to some extent, it's no the same a child's body than a adult's body; she can change her face and dissemble her body but at the end pretend being a boy always entails the same dangerous possibility: just like Gendry asked her to show her penis, others could ask the same and she has none to show.

Faceless Men appears to be the kind of organization that encourages its disciples to use all the weapons at their disposal... accordingly, Arya could drink some potion that stops her growing like the waif girl or she could use the fact of being a woman as an advantage. In westerosi culture men usually treat women as harmless beings, this is a huge benefit: serving girls are treated like air and men are totally unprotected when dealing with prostitutes; she doesn't need to do the job she just has to play the part. Plus as a woman Arya will have access to several places where most men cannot enter.

I have the feeling that courtesan or mummer training are the next for Arya, the pretty face comment tip the scales to the courtensan side and I believe that Arya will love it, being a courtesan in Braavos seems really exciting. Yes, she said she doesn't want to be a Lady, she didn't say she doesn't want to be a woman; what she rejects are the social restrictions most westerosian ladies have (She would be BFF with Lady Mormont, the sand snakes and wildling women).

The Braavosi courtesan culture seems similar to Venice in the sixteenth-century. Venice was a city that was flourishing both economically and culturally. With the influx from the trade routes, it was necessary for Venice to sustain the tourists and merchants that came and went from the city to amuse male travelers in Venice, the predominant entertainment of the city resides in the use of courtesans. From The World of Venice...

The role of women in the sixteenth-century was limited, and it was with their skills and knowledge that courtesans of Venice became powerful and influential. Braavosi famous courtesans are powerful and wealthy, they needed intelligence and knowledge to reach their positions; a girl like Arya (who knows to read, is learning several languages and is good dealing with people) has no better place to hone and increase her set of talents and abilities.

And still love this parallel of the two cultures of Venice and Braavos.

[Ami Moonsinger]

And still love this parallel of the two cultures of Venice and Braavos.

:D Me too. I know I'm getting out of topic, but when I readed Arya's disembarking in Braavos, her first impression of the city, medieval Venice immediately came to my mind; beside the courtesan part you can draw other parallels between this two cities.

[Pod The Impaler]

It appears that there is enough time passing for Arya to pass into her coming of age. When she flowers, how do you all think that will impact her character development and also her overall arc?

As I see it, Arya is still an unknown. Some have suggested she is going to be uninterested in being sexual, but I have a feeling her flowering will lead to the opposite. The blood and mess will probably not frighten her (she prepares carcasses at the House of Black and White without flinching), but it may annoy her to the degree it undermines her ability to do things. I think she will be quite matter-of-fact about the physicality - she has seen women around her deal with their cycles, she has seen some having sex (Pretty Pia).

Sexual desire, on the other hand ... If she follows Lyanna in that, she will probably be a very passionate girl, and somewhat wild. Emotionally, we've already seen that when Arya tends to do something, she tends to do it full-throttle. She is no Sansa to wait to be be wooed, and shy away like a proper lady. Arya will probably be quite open to initiating things when she desires someone. (As she is quite bold in all things.) She has passionate spirit, and I think though she may be more than capable of having hers soar with the euphoria of love or spiral down into the darks depths of heartbreak or jealousy.

This doesn't mean Arya will desire capriciously. She is very reserved and untrusting, and also cynical about other peoples' motives. (Let's face it, Flea Bottom and Braavos are hardly safe for a girl alone, let alone the extreme danger of being at Harrenhal with Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers. Threat was not just perceived there - it was about as real as it could ever be.) Plus let's not forget, she has a lot of issues about believing herself ugly, and cannot imagine herself as the sort of girl men would fall over themselves to be near. Every time she hears someone call her pretty, she is puzzled or embarrased or defiant. She has built up a self-image where she scorns being pretty, but I think that's a social thing. If after she develops, she were to find out she is considered beautiful, I think this is the thing that she would find daunting - the idea that she is desired.

Arya has set herself up mentally as the family misfit up to this point, not as someone's future wife and a mother. Her father had seemingly more optimism about it, but then he's seen that all before with his own sister. Arya herself may do a 180-degree turn when she flowers and begins to feel real desire for the first time.

Plenty of people in real life tell themselves and others they will "never" want to be married and "never" have kids, and then end up making liars of theselves in short order. Being reminded of that later, they usually say "ah well, that's because I really didn't know what I was saying". In ASOIAF, we have a handy example - Jon Snow. He starts off much the same - though his elders like Benjen try to tell the boy he really has no idea what he's talking about, what it really means to have a man's longings and have to give them up. Then Ygritte enters Jon's life, and suddenly it's clear he really did know nothing.

Sansa was not ready for the practical aspects of adolescense, but had already been well-prepared for the idea of being in love and having a romantic life. Arya is the flipside of this - she is probably well prepared for the physical "how to" part of being flowered, just from observation. However, she has not prepared herself for the onslaught of emotions, of feminine desires that were never there before.

Well, that's my theory. I'm seeing a future that is much like Lyanna, or Daenerys in terms of emotion, maybe like Asha Greyjoy in terms of how she reconciles being a woman and a warrior.

[ARYa_Nym]

Braavos is like Venice.The FM also compares with the Council of Ten with the assassins using poison as a method of kill and using cloak and dagger methods.

As for being a tomboy I don't see the link there. Brienne and Arya aren't built the same. Arya is petite. As was said Arya is an assassin which is different to a warrior/soldier. She needs to be able to impersonate different types of people if she gets sent on missions where she needs to infiltrate and collect info.

There's this model who just won model of the year Cara Delevigne and she looked like a boy as a child. She just did the VS show for Pink. Megan Fox and Mila Kunis also claimed to be tomboys.

In the books Catelyn said that Dacey Mormont looked as good in warrior getup as she did in a dress. Her sister was different but they did not have the same build.

If Arya looks strange it's because she's not used to it. If she feels that she needs to do it in order to advance her goals with the FM then she will.

I think Arya won't have a problem with becoming a woman.

“I’m not a squirrel,” she said. “I’ll almost be a woman soon. I’ll be one-and-ten.”

[oprahnoodlemantra]

She's gonna be Gendry's queen.

[Alia of the knife]

I was just reading an article on Angelina Jolie, and she too was considered an "ugly duckling" as well as feeling rejected by her Mother, which caused her to " act out."

I don't think Arya will be quite that extreme, and she at least had a good relationship with her Father.

[Alia of the knife]

:D Me too. I know I'm getting out of topic, but when I readed Arya's disembarking in Braavos, her first impression of the city, medieval Venice immediately came to my mind; beside the courtesan part you can draw other parallels between this two cities.

I think it's a great comparison. :thumbsup:

[Hear Us Roar]

She will be fertile and have feelings for men. A marriage alliance could also be in her future.

[Old-Growth]

Maybe if you didnt make blanket statements like this:

"Either you are a tomboy or you are not"

People would be less inclined to be defensive.

That's not a blanket statement, it's a bloody tautology is what it is. (I know it was not meant to be so, but that is what was written.) The negative half could be anything: a speck of dust, a red giant star, a kangaroo, or what have you. Yes, injecting a bit of symbolic logic into this discussion is crass, but I did teach the subject once, and so was tempted.

[Pod The Impaler]

Well, this isn't creepy at all.

Sorry, I missed the point while watching Jaime and Cersei prepare to suck face in your avatar.

I hope at some point she gets to meet Arianne, or the Mormont women. Show her that she doesn't have to be so frustrated with her gender, she can be both a girl and a warrior or whatever she wants to be. Arya does of course identify as a girl, I think she just feels a bit alone in breaking traditional Westeros gender roles.

If I were to pick one she should meet, it's Daenerys or Asha Greyjoy. Both are pretty damn fierce, and would show Arya she is not alone.

I can't stop laughing at the "flowering" word choice. It makes me think she's somewhere in a glen having magical tea with singing woodland creatures or something.

Closer to the topic, I'm curious whether Izembaro will have something to do with courtesan culture, which would make a great deal of sense for a spy. And though I'm not suggesting Arya would actually sleep with gentleman callers, I think the way the courtesans are portrayed is really interesting in terms of holding power in Braavos. Arya somewhat admires them, if I'm not mistaken.

... I think it's an interesting twist because there's so much about being a courtesan that I think doesn't pertain to sex directly, but still uses femininity for power. Plus, the KM did say that she'd need a pretty face for her next task...a pretty face just like hers.

I can see her using more mature looks as a weapon, without it becoming indecent. Imagine her offering some victim a kiss, and when they embrace each other her dagger slides into his throat or heart from behind. It would work much better for a young woman than for a child, to be sure.

Why would she suddenly become a seductress? It's not the way she acts. And does not need to be, because the job she does, she is more than qualified for anyways.

"Flowering" is a funny euphemism, but these things are almost always expressed in such euphemistic ways.

I can imagine Stannis giving a sex-ed lesson about it, minus all euphemisms. "Once per month you will bleed out your vagina. Prepare yourself. Since this process will repeat monthly, do not look to me for comfort, since anything I say to soothe you would be redundant and pointless."

As for her using hr feminine wiles, I see no problem with her using it in the sense that it is a form of power, a way of getting past a man's defenses. The FM may send her to the courtesans for training - not sexual training, but as others have suggested, the subtle arts that are a sort of flirting and performance, as with geishas. In the movie "La Femme Nikita" we see something similar when they take the streetwise girl and teach her the ways of refinement and using that to make herself more intruguing to her targets. Another form of disguise, really.

She may also begin to act even more rashly, striking out, rebelling to a greater extent than she has already. She has a lot of pain and anger twisted up inside of her that 'raging' hormones would only make more difficult to deal with.

To answer the OP, and this is my opinion and not fact, I don't think her flowering will play a large role in the story. GRRM has spent 5 books developing this Tom Boy into an assassin. I can't imagine he tears it down in one paragraph when she flowers.

If she flowers, and says, "Hey! I want to be a lady and rule by my lord and provide him with many sons," it completely ruins what GRRM has worked Arya up to being.

I donlt think it would ever be something that simple - her first period happens and suddenly she becomes like Sansa or Margaery. But I do see the potential that if she found the right someone, maybe she would do as wolves do and mate for life - not for social obligation but because it's what she desires.

I don't see that at all. Either you are a tomboy or you aren't. Look at Brienne. Also, I sincerely doubt that books will go on that far.

The funny thing is, for all of Brienne's looks, strength, and fighting ability, a large part of her personality is not tomboyish at all.

She is more like Sansa than Arya emotionally.

Her chapters have been accelerated but I don't think they will move that fast. She's only 12 so I think the stuff the FM has been alluding to has been scrapped or will be a PG version. Le Cygne already posted it but I got the impression that it was something she would have to use. He said that he would take her eyes and we got a chapter of her blind. I can only guess what he would have her do if he took her privates.

It worries me, because the FM have said they will take everything she has - and when they said it, they said they would take all the lives she had in her. Meaning she would never bear children, she would be barren, I assume.

[jentario]

Gotta happen. When it does, will it be one of the things, other than Needle, that brings her back from being a FM?

Look at it this way - she's an assassin of death. yet her body is betraying that with a life-affirming natural process. I find that almost mutually exclusive. (not that she won't still be a badass warrior).

The kindly man told her she can't both bring life and take it, and she chose to be an assassin. I would guess there's no flowering for her...

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

The funny thing is, for all of Brienne's looks, strength, and fighting ability, a large part of her personality is not tomboyish at all.

She is more like Sansa than Arya emotionally.

What do emotions have to do with the fact that she more comfortable wearing mail and fighting?

[Quiet Isle]

"Flowering" is a funny euphemism, but these things are almost always expressed in such euphemistic ways.

I can imagine Stannis giving a sex-ed lesson about it, minus all euphemisms. "Once per month you will bleed out your vagina. Prepare yourself. Since this process will repeat monthly, do not look to me for comfort, since anything I say to soothe you would be redundant and pointless."

Still picking myself up off the floor over this. LOL!

[Kittykatknits]

She will be fertile and have feelings for men. A marriage alliance could also be in her future.

I strongly doubt that. Honestly, I don't think the traditional path is the future for either sister.

[Alia of the knife]

Just responding to the idea of Arya having to take certain vows that negates her "flowering," I think there may be a couple of reasons why it won't come to that and why I think much time will not be spent with the FM.

First of all, can the FM be trusted, because we don't know they're aren't using Arya for some reason.

I wonder what the Kindly Man really looks like and if he's as harmless as his appearance, and same with the Waif.

As in Nikita, her first serious mission may make or break her. If it breaks her then it puts her on the road again to running, or captured. She really is not that experienced yet, nor diciplined.

If you look at her and Jons journey, they really almost parallel one another, and if what I think is true, then Jon has been given just what he needs to get out of his vows, which could also happen to Arya.

At the end of the day, like most cults, the FM are a Death Cult and Arya is too young to know, or be held to any vow she takes. Whats worse, it's likely that the FM have become corrupt as well just like the NW, the KG, etc.

They started out as rebel slaves escaped from the Dragon lords of Valaryia, but who knows what they are now.

At the beginning of every apocolypse is the widespread corruption of once pure organizations and beliefs, (and I use the word pure not so much as moral, but in terms of the purity of their beliefs and adhering to them).

Nothing works anymore like it's supposed to.

And you see that with:'

-The KG- Thugs instead of Honorable Knights.

-The NW- Fugitives, Criminals, etc., who don't even believe in "the things beyond the wall" anymore just as much of the Nobility. Even Tyrion scoffs as Snarks, and Robb laughed at Nans tales.

-The FM- Noble Assasins with a cause, or just hired killers if the money is good enough, with perhaps the exception of a few like Jaquen.

And don't forget another HUGE factor for Arya, Shes a warg.

I doubt the FM are going to be able to get her to forget that. And I imagine it would be unknown if that talent would benefit the FM, or be an uncontrolled, unknown variable.

I imagine Nymeria will also not let her forget who she is.

Again, there is deliberately too much of the wolf imagry and symbolism for it not to mean anything, or be forgotten, and the factors of the wolf are:

- They do mate for life and they choose their mates to the degree animals choose.

- As Ned said, without the pack, (family) the lone wolf dies, and Arya is not a lone wolf because she's not a loner and her connection to her direwolf is a sprititual and psychic tether to who she is.

- They are seen as both predators and protectors which Arya fits that template.

Go back to the powerful opening scene of the Mother Direwolf and her cubs, the imagry that started Martin writing this series.

And wasn't it Tyrion who said that even a Dragon could be ridden, but a wolf would never be tamed?

That doesn't bode well for the KM.

There are way too many unknowns for the FM themselves when dealing with Arya, and who knows, she could even bring them down, but just as I think Jons destiny is greater than the Iron Throne, (though he may end up with it), I think Aryas destiny is greater than a Death Cult in Braavos.

It's where she lands for awhile, and where she gains strength and a "home," but in the end, Aryas experience could mirror Bruce Wayne and Ra's al Ghul.

I think she goes back to Westeros and takes her "flowering" knowledge with her.

[Quiet Isle]

Just responding to the idea of Arya having to take certain vows that negates her "flowering," I think there may be a couple of reasons why it won't come to that and why I think much time will not be spent with the FM.

First of all, can the FM be trusted, because we don't know they're aren't using Arya for some reason.

I wonder what the Kindly Man really looks like and if he's as harmless as his appearance, and same with the Waif.

As in Nikita, her first serious mission may make or break her. If it breaks her then it puts her on the road again to running, or captured. She really is not that experienced yet, nor diciplined.

If you look at her and Jons journey, they really almost parallel one another, and if what I think is true, then Jon has been given just what he needs to get out of his vows, which could also happen to Arya.

At the end of the day, like most cults, the FM are a Death Cult and Arya is too young to know, or be held to any vow she takes. Whats worse, it's likely that the FM have become corrupt as well just like the NW, the KG, etc.

They started out as rebel slaves escaped from the Dragon lords of Valaryia, but who knows what they are now.

At the beginning of every apocolypse is the widespread corruption of once pure organizations and beliefs, (and I use the word pure not so much as moral, but in terms of the purity of their beliefs and adhering to them).

Nothing works anymore like it's supposed to.

And you see that with:'

-The KG- Thugs instead of Honorable Knights.

-The NW- Fugitives, Criminals, etc., who don't even believe in "the things beyond the wall" anymore just as much of the Nobility. Even Tyrion scoffs as Snarks, and Robb laughed at Nans tales.

-The FM- Noble Assasins with a cause, or just hired killers if the money is good enough, with perhaps the exception of a few like Jaquen.

And don't forget another HUGE factor for Arya, Shes a warg.

I doubt the FM are going to be able to get her to forget that. And I imagine it would be unknown if that talent would benefit the FM, or be an uncontrolled, unknown variable.

I imagine Nymeria will also not let her forget who she is.

Again, there is deliberately too much of the wolf imagry and symbolism for it not to mean anything, or be forgotten, and the factors of the wolf are:

- They do mate for life and they choose their mates to the degree animals choose.

- As Ned said, without the pack, (family) the lone wolf dies, and Arya is not a lone wolf because she's not a loner and her connection to her direwolf is a sprititual and psychic tether to who she is.

- They are seen as both predators and protectors which Arya fits that template.

Go back to the powerful opening scene of the Mother Direwolf and her cubs, the imagry that started Martin writing this series.

And wasn't it Tyrion who said that even a Dragon could be ridden, but a wolf would never be tamed?

That doesn't bode well for the KM.

There are way too many unknowns for the FM themselves when dealing with Arya, and who knows, she could even bring them down, but just as I think Jons destiny is greater than the Iron Throne, (though he may end up with it), I think Aryas destiny is greater than a Death Cult in Braavos.

It's where she lands for awhile, and where she gains strength and a "home," but in the end, Aryas experience could mirror Bruce Wayne and Ra's al Ghul.

I think she goes back to Westeros and takes her "flowering" knowledge with her.

See above. all that. Arya and Sansa are coming back as full blown Stark women. and when they do, look out. neither one is going to have a lot of mercy. and both are going to escape their "cults" - as in the FM and the cult of Littlefinger. It's interesting how they will both have to shed their false personas to come back. Stronger, smarter. Wolves.

[straits]

I strongly doubt that. Honestly, I don't think the traditional path is the future for either sister.

Really? But Sansa's strongest political selling point is the value she has as a spouse, especially since she's surrounded by nobles now. Staying out of a marriage, even one on paper, doesn't seem likely if she is to shed Alayne at any point.

[Twilight Dragon]

See above. all that. Arya and Sansa are coming back as full blown Stark women. and when they do, look out. neither one is going to have a lot of mercy. and both are going to escape their "cults" - as in the FM and the cult of Littlefinger. It's interesting how they will both have to shed their false personas to come back. Stronger, smarter. Wolves.

She-wolves. My last thoughts about Lyanna and Sansa, Catelyn and Arya are about their resemblance. People say that Arya have taken her fierce and pation after her mother, but I suppose it's Lyanna's chacracter. Remember, how Lyanna have protected Reed at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

But Sansa as a full Stark woman? She's a little bird and remember the emblem of LF. May be she will play for Starks, but step by step, everything from her Stark side have been killed (as they killed Lady). She's not anymore Tully (her mother well-trained her in principles of their women) and the less resembling to Stark of all 6 children even in the beginning of tale.

[straits]

Brienne had a very Sansa-esque crush on Renly.

[straits]

She-wolves. My last thoughts about Lyanna and Sansa, Catelyn and Arya are about their resemblance. People say that Arya have taken her fierce and pation after her mother, but I suppose it's Lyanna's chacracter. Remember, how Lyanna have protected Reed at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

But Sansa as a full Stark woman? She's a little bird and remember the emblem of LF. May be she will play for Starks, but step by step, everything from her Stark side have been killed (as they killed Lady). She's not anymore Tully (her mother well-trained her in principles of their women) and the less resembling to Stark of all 6 children even in the beginning of tale.

Saying that Sansa is not Stark is like blowing the Horn of Joramun here :leaving: