The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[janedl]

I imagine she'll be a lot more dangerous when it's that time of the month.

Oh, for heaven's sake! That's ridiculous.

[Winter's Knight]

Oh, for heaven's sake! That's ridiculous.

I'm just surprised that it took three pages for someone to flog that particular equine carcass.

[Alia of the knife]

Lyanna grew out of what? She still had her "wolf's blood" in her, that is not something to grow out of. Her decision to run away with Rhaegar was impulsive and brave and I do not think these two exclude being romantic in any way.

Was she? I thought she was only better than Sansa.

I read that as it was something she liked and was good at, so another difference between what she and Sansa were drawn to.

[MaximumPatlickicus]

possibly off topic, but since we're talking about Arya's gender and also kind of the faceless men.. When Arya was standing as water bearer for the FM meeting, were there any other females present? I know there is the waif, but are there any other females that are proper faceless or is there some sort of glass ceiling where if you have a vagina, the best you can hope to do is train newbs in the art of poison and fill cups in meetings?

[Where Boars Glow]

Wolf's blood is what Eddard's father called Lyanna's and Brandon's rashness and impulsiveness. Arya has it too, Eddard said.

She was always wild, her running off with Rhaegar clearly proves it.

I do not think saying not wanting to be married to Robert is a mature thing to say at all.

Wrong. She also picked some flowers for her father in AGOT. ;)

That was before she got a taste for the other flowers :)

[Buckwheat]

That was before she got a taste for the other flowers :)

Exactly. But it was there. :)

[Silverx2]

I expect Her to quote predator "I don't have time to bleed"

[Cravensbayne]

Well, this isn't creepy at all.

haha

[Onarjyo Khsatriya]

possibly off topic, but since we're talking about Arya's gender and also kind of the faceless men.. When Arya was standing as water bearer for the FM meeting, were there any other females present? I know there is the waif, but are there any other females that are proper faceless or is there some sort of glass ceiling where if you have a vagina, the best you can hope to do is train newbs in the art of poison and fill cups in meetings?

well one can not say if there were any other females there because you don't know a FMs true identity.and as KM mentioned that it is very hard for a woman to become a FM.but I don't think there is any sort of glass ceiling,if you have it in you to become a FM you can become one,no matter what your gender is

[MaximumPatlickicus]

ah, so maybe the kindly man was originally the kindly woman.. okay, I'll buy that. :)

[Onarjyo Khsatriya]

@Maximumpatlickicus

Arya knows the KM and the waif for a long time now.and there are always close interactions between them.unlike those FMs in meeting.we also know they are teaching her to detect a lie and to see past glamour.this true seeing even not started here,it started with Syrio and we can see her using this through her arc if we follow her story closely.so we can assume that now it is hard to trick her with a false identity if someone spends a reasonable amount of time with her....so may be we should believe she knows right,and the KM is the kindly man and the waif is a woman,,

[Ice Turtle]

Arya has at least basic information about how menstruation works. From Cat of Canals:

One time, when Brea took to her bed with her moon blood, Cat had pushed her barrow to the Purple Harbor to sell crabs and prawns to oarsmen off the Sealord’s pleasure barge, covered stem to stern with laughing faces.

The other whores said that the Sailor’s Wife visited the Isle of the Gods on the days when her flower was in bloom, and knew all the gods who lived there, even the ones that Braavos had forgotten.

Arya is an observant girl and she lived with other girls and women in environments that provided little or no privacy (Harrenhall and the time spent with Gregor) so she most probably has much more information and outside experience than Sansa who had lived a very isolated life.

Considering that a lot of men in Westeros start to ogle girls when they reach age about twelve, I would guess that sexuality (not meaning actual sex) will play part in her arc. I wouldn't mind Arya doing courtesan training much, as existing in higher society will mean big challenge for Arya and big challenges mean interesting reading.

[The Great Walrus]

If you're going to be wed to Joff, then probably. :P

I think that, unless she doesn't know anything about ut, in which case she may be frightened, it won't change much. It won't take away her pain or sense of displacement, her hunger for vengeance or her love for her family.

It may however result in her developing physical desire.

And then we'll hear even more noise from those damn Jon-Arya shippers...

[Le Cygne]

On the Faceless Men and women, found this:

"It may be that the Many-Faced God has led you here to be His instrument, but when I look at you I see a child . . . and worse, a girl child. Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both."

He also says you have to give up your "private parts", figuratively, no doubt but I wonder if there's more to it:

"He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts."

And I think the others there were all men:

"Are the other men all priests?" she asked the kindly man the next morning.

GRRM's recent quote on "flowering", you are an adult:

"One of the reasons I wanted to do this with HBO is that I wanted to keep the sex," he admitted. "We had some real problems because Dany is only 13 in the books, and that’s based on medieval history. They didn’t have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books."

http://www.okmagazine.com/news/dance-dragons-george-rr-martin-talks-book-5-games-thrones-hbo

[I do not sew]

I'm just surprised that it took three pages for someone to flog that particular equine carcass.

Oh quite so quite so, yes, yes, indubitably. Irrehensible I say, most irrehensible. These sordid rogues are the bane of this board, with their boorish manner and, and, and...toilet mockery! The utter degradation and decline of our refined community! By jove.

[Quiet Isle]

Disclaimer: This opinion is about an adult Arya.

I agree that Arya will define her own way, but I would also say that her being a warrior does not necessarily have to conflict with her femininity, or even if shes beautiful; beautiful enough for the Kindly Man to have offered her the choice of staying with them, or going to the Daughter of the Dusk, or the Black Pearl.

In Amazon mythology, there are many examples of these women not eschewing love, passion, or beauty. And though it's been said they burned off a breast to better throw a javelin, or use a bow, in much of the art, they are depicted with both, with one covered.

- Queen Penthesilea ordered her male servants crippled "as the lame best perform the acts of love." (Okay, a little over the top).

- Gryne, an Amazon was courted by Apollo and was loved by him.

In the Heroditus Histories, intermarriage with men from other tribes often explained the origins of certain peoples, like the Amazons settling with the Scythians.

And the goddess Athena was the patron of war, justice, mathematics, (which I believe Arya is quite good at), and Arts and Crafts. (see the lethal contest between Arachne and Athena). :ack:

Also in the Iliad, they were merely referred to as Antiancirai, "those who fight like men," which is different from being as men, or masculine.

Mentioned in the Iliad as well is the Tomb of Queen of Myrine, who led her Amazons to victory against Libya and much of the Gorgon.

My point is that Aryas "flowering," potential beauty, or other feminine attributes and the impact it will have on her current path, (which I think was the point of this topic), does not have to compromise her desire or pursuit of justice, and taking for herself the ideal of honor, rather than being the extention of others Honor, (i.e., her House, or the men of her House), which would have been revolutionary in a time period when only men could claim the ideal of honor, nor does it mean she won't love or won't want passion.

I agree, and I never even posited the question because i thought she would magically throw off her tomboy persona and become a sansa like lady. but i do think her coming of age is going to impact her decisionmaking and also her feeling of family. and wanting to get home. it has to have some impact.

[cuendillar]

I can see her using more mature looks as a weapon, without it becoming indecent. Imagine her offering some victim a kiss, and when they embrace each other her dagger slides into his throat or heart from behind. It would work much better for a young woman than for a child, to be sure.

[Alia of the knife]

And then we'll hear even more noise from those damn Jon-Arya shippers...

No, just no.

On this, I truly believe Arya is the spiritual connection to Lyanna, but of course it won't make sense until Jon knows who his mother is, and realizes she never actully left him.

To me, it's a little too Oedipal.

And, if we're going to do Oedipal, I could envision Sansa before Arya given his issues with Cat and his experience with Ygritte, but, I'm not fond of that either.

[Ami Moonsinger]

It always wonders me how people find creepy talk about sex topics and have no problem with violence like people getting part of their bodies cut. Puberty is natural part of life as well as menarche to half the world population. Though I would change the name of topic to how body development would affect Arya...

In my opinion the flowerig itself will not have grand impact, probably is something she will be expecting to happen; but being perceived as a woman by those around her would definectly impact in her character. Now some would say that she can disguise herself, but that is true just to some extent, it's no the same a child's body than a adult's body; she can change her face and dissemble her body but at the end pretend being a boy always entails the same dangerous possibility: just like Gendry asked her to show her penis, others could ask the same and she has none to show.

Faceless Men appears to be the kind of organization that encourages its disciples to use all the weapons at their disposal... accordingly, Arya could drink some potion that stops her growing like the waif girl or she could use the fact of being a woman as an advantage. In westerosi culture men usually treat women as harmless beings, this is a huge benefit: serving girls are treated like air and men are totally unprotected when dealing with prostitutes; she doesn't need to do the job she just has to play the part. Plus as a woman Arya will have access to several places where most men cannot enter.

I got the sense the the life of a Braavosi courtesan is 60% intrigue, 39% awesome, 1% turning tricks. That's to say, I think it's an interesting twist because there's so much about being a courtesan that I think doesn't pertain to sex directly, but still uses femininity for power. Plus, the KM did say that she'd need a pretty face for her next task...a pretty face just like hers.

I have the feeling that courtesan or mummer training are the next for Arya, the pretty face comment tip the scales to the courtensan side and I believe that Arya will love it, being a courtesan in Braavos seems really exciting. Yes, she said she doesn't want to be a Lady, she didn't say she doesn't want to be a woman; what she rejects are the social restrictions most westerosian ladies have (She would be BFF with Lady Mormont, the sand snakes and wildling women).

The Braavosi courtesan culture seems similar to Venice in the sixteenth-century. Venice was a city that was flourishing both economically and culturally. With the influx from the trade routes, it was necessary for Venice to sustain the tourists and merchants that came and went from the city to amuse male travelers in Venice, the predominant entertainment of the city resides in the use of courtesans. From The World of Venice...

Courtesans, in sixteenth-century Venice, were not only celebrated and honoured, but often people of cultivation, with a taste for art and poetry (though the law at one time decreed that each such girl must carry a red light at the prow of her gondola). In earlier centuries there was a celebrated brothel, the Casteletto, at the end of the Rialto bridge, famous throughout Europe for the beauty and skill of its girls. Later, when Venice was beginning her decline, the prostitutes became courtesans, increased in wealth and respectability, burst the confines of the bordels, and gave the city its lasting reputation for lascivious charm. At the end of tke sixteenth century there are said to have been 2,889 patrician ladies in Venice, and 2,508 nuns, and 1,936 burgher women: but there were 11,654 courtesans, of whom 210 were carefully registered in a catalogue by a public-spirited citizen of the day, together with their addresses and prices or, as the compiler delicately put it, the amount of money to be paid by noblemen and others desirous of entering their good graces . The cheapest charged one scudo, the most expensive thirty, and the catalogue reckons that the enjoyment of them all would cost the intemperate visitor 1,200 gold scudi.

The role of women in the sixteenth-century was limited, and it was with their skills and knowledge that courtesans of Venice became powerful and influential. Braavosi famous courtesans are powerful and wealthy, they needed intelligence and knowledge to reach their positions; a girl like Arya (who knows to read, is learning several languages and is good dealing with people) has no better place to hone and increase her set of talents and abilities.

[-Ghost-]

I can see Arya growing into a more badass version of Lyanna. She's gonna be a warrior but she's still gonna be a girl, like the Mormont women. She liked Gendry, so when she gets older I can see her wanting kids to fill the void of having lost so many family members, maybe even with Gendry. Arya and Jon are my favorites but I dont like the idea, which I just started seeing, of her and Jon together. Thats not even cool, why would people want that?