The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[Kittykatknits]

Really? But Sansa's strongest political selling point is the value she has as a spouse, especially since she's surrounded by nobles now. Staying out of a marriage, even one on paper, doesn't seem likely if she is to shed Alayne at any point.

I'm quite serious. :) I've got to step away from the computer for next several hours but I'll explain what I mean later. Her storyline is just as untraditional as Arya's, but not quite so obvious. She's started on the traditional path but has been moving steadily away from it since the end of the first book.

[Twilight Dragon]

Saying that Sansa is not Stark is like blowing the Horn of Joramun here :leaving:

Oh well, not only here - everywhere xD But that's my opinion. She was a half-Stark and half-Tully, but it was destructed.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Brienne had a very Sansa-esque crush on Renly.

I still haven't received an answer regarding how Briennes feelings tie into her not wanting to wear traditional women's clothing and following a path expected of her? Robert was crazy obsessed with Lyanna, but he never wore dresses.

[straits]

I still haven't received an answer regarding how Briennes feelings tie into her not wanting to wear traditional women's clothing and following a path expected of her? Robert was crazy obsessed with Lyanna, but he never wore dresses.

Wearing armor and feeling girly-feely feels for a man are not mutually exclusive actions (one does not need to tie in with the other), and the second is quite like Sansa before she was disillusioned. And Brienne shies away from wearing anything to betray that she might be a woman, because she is sensitive about her looks - no one wants ridicule.

The Mormont women embrace femininity and fighting, on the other hand. And the Robert thing is irrelevant.

[straits]

I'm quite serious. :) I've got to step away from the computer for next several hours but I'll explain what I mean later. Her storyline is just as untraditional as Arya's, but not quite so obvious. She's started on the traditional path but has been moving steadily away from it since the end of the first book.

I do not mean to say that Sansa will have a traditional role, but that whatever role she takes may not avoid being a spouse on account of her Stark name and current location.

And I'd like to add that Arya potentially has far more freedom in choosing to be with someone she likes, should she want to.

[Quiet Isle]

I do not mean to say that Sansa will have a traditional role, but that whatever role she takes may not avoid being a spouse on account of her Stark name and current location.

And I'd like to add that Arya potentially has far more freedom in choosing to be with someone she likes, should she want to.

I don't think Sansa Stark will EVER marry (discount marriage to tyrion for a moment - involuntary). She's seen the consequences - you become chattel in this world. But i bet she has a baby.......

[Cat of the Banal]

I think this topic becomes quite pertinent in the fact that Arya has garnered some protection from being a scrawny disheveled child. She can easily pass for a boy. As she becomes sexually mature, her hip widen, her breast develop, and yes she "flowers", it is going to become harder to NOT be noticed. The world of ASOIAF is very dangerous for young women (the small folk that is). If she does develop to be as attractive as Lyanna, she will be in constant peril. Her training so far will help her to an extent, but a lovely young maid, often alone, out in the world, will need a lot of skill and luck to keep from being harmed.

[Éadaoin]

She-wolves. My last thoughts about Lyanna and Sansa, Catelyn and Arya are about their resemblance. People say that Arya have taken her fierce and pation after her mother, but I suppose it's Lyanna's chacracter. Remember, how Lyanna have protected Reed at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

But Sansa as a full Stark woman? She's a little bird and remember the emblem of LF. May be she will play for Starks, but step by step, everything from her Stark side have been killed (as they killed Lady). She's not anymore Tully (her mother well-trained her in principles of their women) and the less resembling to Stark of all 6 children even in the beginning of tale.

Eh. I still hold that Arya takes after Catelyn (and yes, Lyanna) quite a bit, and that Sansa takes after Ned in a lot of ways. But they share traits from both of their parents, and they are both Tully and Stark.

Still not seeing how Sansa "isn't a Stark", I wish someone would explain this to me. Is it because Lady died? I have a totally different interpretation of Lady's death. Is it because at the beginning of the books she had dreams of being a southron lady? What has taken away her mystical Starkness?

If Sansa isn't Stark or Tully, then what on earth is she?

[Quiet Isle]

I think this topic becomes quite pertinent in the fact that Arya has garnered some protection from being a scrawny disheveled child. She can easily pass for a boy. As she becomes sexually mature, her hip widen, her breast develop, and yes she "flowers", it is going to become harder to NOT be noticed. The world of ASOIAF is very dangerous for young women (the small folk that is). If she does develop to be as attractive as Lyanna, she will be in constant peril. Her training so far will help her to an extent, but a lovely young maid, often alone, out in the world, will need a lot of skill and luck to keep from being harmed.

And a direwolf.

[Cat of the Banal]

And a direwolf.

She doesn't have Nymeria close to her if she stays across the narrow sea.

[Quiet Isle]

She doesn't have Nymeria close to her if she stays across the narrow sea.

Yes she does. nymeria is advancing her cause. and ghost can channel Shaggydog, and he's on Skaagos, and Jon sees SD's actions through Ghost. one can warg over vast distances if the bond is strong.

[Quiet Isle]

Eh. I still hold that Arya takes after Catelyn (and yes, Lyanna) quite a bit, and that Sansa takes after Ned in a lot of ways. But they share traits from both of their parents, and they are both Tully and Stark.

Still not seeing how Sansa "isn't a Stark", I wish someone would explain this to me. Is it because Lady died? I have a totally different interpretation of Lady's death. Is it because at the beginning of the books she had dreams of being a southron lady? What has taken away her mystical Starkness?

If Sansa isn't Stark or Tully, then what on earth is she?

Sansa is both, still. But she builds winterfell in the snow. and wishes to be back there. she's keeping her mouth shut, learning the game. she's going to be quite a Stark force to reckon with. and most of us think she's already warging some animals. she needs to keep developing that innate skill.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think this topic becomes quite pertinent in the fact that Arya has garnered some protection from being a scrawny disheveled child. She can easily pass for a boy. As she becomes sexually mature, her hip widen, her breast develop, and yes she "flowers", it is going to become harder to NOT be noticed. The world of ASOIAF is very dangerous for young women (the small folk that is). If she does develop to be as attractive as Lyanna, she will be in constant peril. Her training so far will help her to an extent, but a lovely young maid, often alone, out in the world, will need a lot of skill and luck to keep from being harmed.

Given her experiences it's already a reality for her. She prepares for it.

"The clothes she wore were rags…Under them she hid three knives…there were always a few bad ones who might see her as someone they could safely rob or rape. The blades were for them, though so far the blind girl had not been forced to use them.”

That's not to say that she can't be harmed but as a child she was already exposed to this reality. She has been around men and a woman (Amabel) who did not care that she was not developed and when Rorge wanted to sodomize her it made no difference to him whether she was a girl or a boy.

[Kittykatknits]

I do not mean to say that Sansa will have a traditional role, but that whatever role she takes may not avoid being a spouse on account of her Stark name and current location.

And I'd like to add that Arya potentially has far more freedom in choosing to be with someone she likes, should she want to.

Later than I thought but following up. Also, if this turns out to be a long OT posts, I'd rather take it to a new thread.

OK, the point I was making originally is that Sansa's development is just as unconventional as Arya's, even if that is less apparent. The assumption that Sansa will not be able to avoid marriage or a political marriage, or a spouse because of her name/status/location/politics or what have you is to limit what we are seeing going on here.

It's commonly thought that Sansa's future is to be a player in the game or that she will eventually marry for a political alliance. I used to see ALOT of claims that Sansa would marry to help get revenge for the Stark out of duty. Lately, Harry the Red Herring is being brought up alot, as if LF's plans for yet another betrothal are the logical outcome for her.

Ultimately, I look at Sansa's story arc as being about agency. It's been completely stripped from her, she's been a hostage and prisoner from the end of the first book. It's pretty apparent in KL where she is being beaten, spied on, and forcibly married. In the Vale, LF is achieving the same thing by making her complicit in his crimes and attempting to alienate/isolate her from those she might be able to trust.

So, Sansa's path back to agency is done partly through playing the game and partly through seizing control over her marital/love/sex life. There are other important elements but I'm not going to get in to that.

So, look at Sansa's exposure to all of the above. She started out as a dutiful girl, in love with the idea of Joffrey in GOT. Life was a romance and a story and she wanted to live it. As we all know, that naive belief was abruptly ripped from her during the death of her father. In Clash, the prominent female role model (for good or ill) for Sansa is Cersei. They have two important conversations and in each of them Cersei rips apart many of Sansa's ideas of what marriage and motherhood is. A woman is a horse to be ridden and then tossed aside, you give birth and your husband goes hunting, marriage means you will never love your husband but you must do your duty. More of Sansa's ideals are being cast away. It's also important to note that the person telling Sansa this is Cersei, a woman who chose not to do her duty and decided who would father her children. In the same book, Sansa sees Lollys, a gang rape victim, being ignored and almost outcasted by those at court. Despite her status, she is now only good for a former sellsword.

Fast forward in to Storm and Sansa is placed in to a forced marriage. She attempts to run away, she refuses to kneel, she has her thoughts that no one is wanted for her claim, her rejection of Septa Mordanes teachings "all mean are beautiful", and her "never" to Tyrion. Martin grants the female gaze to Sansa and that chapter serves as a bridge on what she believes about marriage and love. Next, Sansa meets Ellaria Sand, a paramour and a bastard. But, Sansa notices the relationship between her and Oberyn. It's mutual respect and desire. She isn't doing her duty, heck she's not even married. Sansa seems very intrigued by Ellaria. She's not condemning her for who she is at all. Fast forward even further, and LF tells Sansa that he loved her mother and that she gave him her maidenhood. Sansa is not upset or angered, she seems rather accepting of this fact. It's not a condemnation at all.

Next up we have the Fingers. One woman has fathered multiple bastards and feels no shame over her decisions in life. Her aunt has decided to marry for love, she will not hide any more. Then, we get in to Feast where Sansa meets Mya and Randa. Mya has refused the attempts at an arranged marriage and wants to live her life on her terms. Randa is very open and comfortable about her sexuality. Sansa is once again intrigued by both of them and is now in a situation where she will likely learn from and be further influenced by both of them.

What would have happened if her parents had not died and her engagement to Joffrey (or whoever her father selected) continued? No different viewpoints, no rejection of her Septa's teaching, no desire to be loved for herself, no exposure to someone like Randa. The idea to select her own partner would never have even occured to her.

So, as I said, her exposure to love/sex/marriage is extremely unconventional. But, she's trapped at court and tossed from one man to another. Yet, we have access to Sansa's thoughts. She's reject her Septa, she's rejected the idea that her husband can still be attractive - she recalls Tyrion's statements as a Lannister lie, she's rejected the idea of doing her duty, she's rejected the idea that she is an object to be used for her claim. Now, it's not that love has ceased to matter to her. Rather, she wants them on her terms - not on the terms that her society wants to set for her. Sansa has completely flipped from where she was at the start of the series.

OK, so back to the agency theme again. Sansa has been engaged or married (Joff, Willas, Tyrion, Sweetrobin, and Harry) five times so far in the series. Her actual marriage was a forced one, done under duress. Her patriarch is dead (no Ned and no Robb). For Sansa, the personal is the political. WF is home and memory. It is not duty or obligation and she is done with her duty - remember she's already rejected all of that. Her reaction to another marriage was a negative physical response and she even uses Tyrion as way to get out of it. I'd also add that after all of this, it is significant that Martin left her storyline on a cliffhanger.

Martin has been exploring the themes of marriage and love with Sansa from the beginning and both have been a tool for him to explain the impact of Sansa's loss of agency. Is the path back to reclaiming it to merely assume another political match and be a dutiful wife and mother? Martin has visited marriage with Sansa once and she rejected it. If he chooses it again, why should we assume it would follow this same path? Is the fact that she is currently in the Vale enough for us to assume that someone else will force her to marry?

It is a different path than Arya but they are arriving at the same place - a desire to live life on their terms. Part of the story for each of the Stark children has been to put them in circumstances that would allow them to grow and develop in ways that would not otherwise be possible.

So, if we assume that because she is surrounded by others of the noble class, that she will not have options in the way that Arya does, I think is to ignore much of what has happened to her and to ignore how she has changed. To be clear, I am not saying that Sansa will not be married at the end and I am not saying that politics will not be a part of her storyline. But the text does clearly show us that this particular life is not, by default, her only option. I think she's going to have far more freedeom in any future choices than many initially be apparent.

[Light a wight tonight]

I think she will be quite confident in being a woman since she always insisted that she is not a boy, she always accepted her female identity.

A girl who doesn't let herself be limited to what's expected of a young lady. Who seems to defy limits. Which is why I see her leaving the FM when they try to box her in.

[Djinn]

Arya's flowering will end her career as a faceless (wo)man since it's impossible to perform crazy-like ninja skills while wearing Manolo Blanik's and obcessing about Mr. Big(maybe Gendry).

[ARYa_Nym]

The kindly man told her she can't both bring life and take it, and she chose to be an assassin. I would guess there's no flowering for her...

I think they make female recruits infertile rather than prevent the puberty process. The KM did tell Arya that she could be like the waif if she wanted to though.

I think the Kindly Man intends for Arya to enter the tutelage of a courtesan. He even says something like "Men will begger themselves for your maidenhead." Arya doesnt even have much of a reaction to that, whereas, if that was said to her in AGoT, she would be all "wtf..no!" I believe her flowering will lead to a bit more of an understanding of the female ways and will start her on a path of maturing as a woman.

It was one of the alternatives that the KM offered her if she decided to leave.

“You believe this is the only place for you.” It was as if he’d heard her thoughts. “You are wrong in that. You would find softer service in the household of some merchant. Or would you sooner be a courtesan, and have songs sung of your beauty? Speak the word, and we will send you to the Black Pearl or the Daughter of the Dusk. You will sleep on rose petals and wear silken skirts that rustle when you walk, and great lords will beggar themselves for your maiden’s blood. Or if it is marriage and children you desire, tell me, and we shall find a husband for you. Some honest apprentice boy, a rich old man, aseafarer, whatever you desire.” She wanted none of that. Wordless, she shook her head."

[Sand Snake No. 9]

For the record, I hate the term "flowering." It sounds like something a cook does to a veal cutlet before throwing it in the pan.

In the unlikely event that the story ever gets to Arya's post-flowering blossoming, I hope she gets to do something unconventional. I don't care who she wants or screws, I just don't want the story about it to bore me to death.

I also thought that the scene where Sansa announces to the assembled Lords of the Vale that she was "a maiden flowered" or whatever, lacked a certain, uh, authenticity. Sure all us female peeps menstruate, but how many announce that fact to a room full of men?

And oh, Sansa, Sansa, Sansa . . .

To me, Sansa is to Stark as Fredo is to Corleone, whereas Arya is to Stark as Michael is to Corleone.

Michael: Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

Fredo: I'm your older brother, Mike, and I was stepped over!

Michael: That's the way Pop wanted it.

Fredo: It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

Right.

[The Mother of The Others]

It's difficult to envision her going back to civilized life and having a normal Sadie Hawkins dance in her future. She's like an image of youth caught in time, always underfoot. Arya should never bleed anyways; that's other people's job, the people on her list.

[Cruella]

I am mostly curious how readers will deal with Arya having interest in boys. It didn't go so well for Sansa and Dany, although maybe Arya will have more likable suitors. Right now she's really a tomboy, will she be 'forgiven' for having feelings over than rage, sadness, and desire to get back home? I can see her as more dangerous and reserved Asha. She'll probably have hard time letting people close, but it's quite possible she won't hesitate to scratch an itch if she feels like it, to clear her head if nothing else. After everything she's been through it can seem like some minor thing.

Martin puts a lot of emphasis on this side of life, sexual desire and the like, so I see it as quite probable that we'll see at least something from Arya, much as some readers would be more comfortable if she never grew up in this sense.

Well, life goes on, and your precious tomboy might start noticing cute, or not so cute, boys and dream of kisses.