Has Theon deserved all that happened to him for betraying Winterfell?

[Nox the Blackblade]

Who had it worse? Comparing who and who?

And I think it's time for Theon to die. His fractured psyche can't be fixed at this point, and he's been punished enough. I see it more of a mercy killing.

I agree. Before I got ADWD, I always thought Theon deserved death for his betrayl. Now that I'm almost done with ADWD and reading everything that happened to him at Ramsey's hand, I was thinking 'just...just put him out of his misery.' But of course, Ramsey was the Bane before Bane.

[Nox the Blackblade]

( anybody else think that Theon should have killed his father? Could that have raised the him in the eyes of the Ironmen?).

Probably. If you think about House Greyjoy's words-'We Do Not Sow.' So, if Theon had killed his father to claim lordship over the Iron Islands, he would just be following House Greyjoy's words.

Then again, as Aeron constantly stated, 'No Godless man shall sit on the seastone chair,' and no matter what religion people in Westeros practiced, kinslaying is the greatest of crimes. So killing Balon might have sent him to his death. But that didn't stop Euron from getting the throne.

[The Killer Snark]

No, not in the slightest, but I've a seperate theory regarding Theon's experience that I'm going to be posting as a seperate thread.

[Nelapsi]

I would like him to fulfill a bigger purpose before he dies. That would complete his redemption arc.

[Arya Stalka]

Theon got beyond what he deserved. Nobody deserves to get "that other thing" cut off. Even that made me cringe. I hated Theon, but had liked how he saved Bran. I can't hate Reek. I pity that reek. Theon was just a fool who tried too hard. Now this was a bitter dude. Does Theon/Reek deserve the gift of mercy? Maybe he'll end up at the House of the Undying House of Black & White. <Ooops. Thought one thing and wrote another.

[Leviathan I]

Theon is scum and a disgrace to the proud Greyjoy name. But if you don't feel a little sorry for him after reading his POV chapters in Dance you're either a sociopath or a fierce Stark supporter.

[TheButcherCrow]

Fact: Theon ordered/was complicit in the murder of two small children.

Is this not the treatment that we hear so often should be dealt out to the child murderers of today? Is this not what people are asking for ? "Yeah, prisons to good for his sort, cut his balls off!!". I ask, are you not entertained by the reality of what's been asked for? Or in the light of what it does to a person do you find yourself saying, "no-one deserves that kind of treatment". This is the question GRRM is posing us with Theon, it's why his crimes must be so vile, so unforgiveable. It becomes a measure of society whether we believe what he got was deserved. Personally, I dunno, a quick death seems like justice, torture seems like vengeance & what Theon got, seems to me, like enjoying it.

[The Killer Snark]

It was Ramsay who killed the children, and Theon hates everything he's forced to do at Winterfell. He does it out of fear of being disrespected by his family and his troops. Don't get me wrong; the guy is a bit of an asshole, but I've always liked the character and see him as a victim all the way.

[Arya Stalka]

I guess he chose to be castrated. Wouldn't you rather have your tongue cut off given the choice? Hmmm. Yes he indirectly killed those children. Am I terrible for just being relieved it wasn't Bran and Rickon? Sure it was gruesome and terrible... but we commoners are easily forgotten. That whole stint worked to the Starks children's advantage. They're dead to the world.

[Nelapsi]

the guy is a bit of an asshole, but I've always liked the character and see him as a victim all the way.

A victim of his stupidity, yeah... I always felt he was nothing but a petulant kid, always trying to hard to be accepted and considered a man. Of course, he had identity problems because of his pupil/hostage status... still, to me, he's always been plain stupid

[ILoveSummer]

I think he suffered enough. In my opinion he should go to the temple of the god with many faces...it sounds like a good place to rest. He should enjoy a few peaceful days or weeks or even years and then he can die. Theon and Reek are both dead at the end of aDwD.

[The Killer Snark]

He certainly appears to be under imminent execution via mercy killing at the hands of Stannis in his preview chapter for the next novel. But at least he redeems himself into the good character he should have been and does something useful (saving Jeyne and helping Stannis) before he dies. The information he provides will help ensure the retaking of Winterfell if any justice is to be done.

Incidentally, if Roose were to be killed and usurped by his bastard, and Ramsay proclaimed himself King of the North before he was captured, if he doesn't die in the battle, he will face by far the worst death in the series. First, he will be fully castrated by Stannis as a rapist. Next, on account of the fact that flaying while the Starks still held supremacy was technically illegal, he will be flayed by inches by Stannis in order to make sure he survives the skinning process before he's handed over to be burned alive. This will happen if Winterfell is retaken and he's captured, so Ramsay had best hope he gets killed first.

[bemused]

I don't think GRRM is finished with Theon just yet. I think he will be given further opportunities to atone for his past mistakes.So I think it's too soon to judge whether he deserved what's happened to him. ( And I truly can't see Ramsay as an agent of justice. )

The end of the gift chapter doesn't fill me with foreboding as much as feeling a " pregnant pause " that will lead to other things.. and that Theon's feeling that the old gods are speaking to him is just the first sign of developing a new ability ..( as Bran's dreams of the 3 eyed crow were for him ).

There's been lots of speculation as to whether Bran could "warg" Theon.. but because of the Varamyr prologue, and Bran inhabiting Hodor ..we automatically think of this as an act of violation to one degree or another. ( And I guess some take the Hodor business to be a sign of Bran "turning to the dark side" .. but I'm just not feeling that.)

But what would happen if Theon invited the experience.. surrendered to it , as a medium at a seance goes into a trance to allow spirits to speak through him/her ? I can't help feeling Theon is on the verge of something like this , that it would be a natural progression from his experiences in the godswood. And it would provide him a way of making some sort of recompense to the Starks and the old gods. ...( I suppose mainly as a means of communication , but as has been hashed out on other threads, Theon has been left with enough fingers to be able to draw a bow , and archery was his forte )

[Gogossos]

Just a thought, even though now he's doing it for much nobler reasons, he is still lying about Arya/Jeyne, in addition to his continued lie about Bran and Rickon's "deaths". Tell Stannis the truth and be done with it. But since this is Theon, he is going to try to leverage some kind of benefit out of it.

[JonNonRegis]

The real question is: Do we, the readers, deserve an appalling, way-over-the-top subplot about Theon, Jeyne, Ramsay, and his dog... just because GRRM can't get Dany out of Fauxrope with a horsewhip?

[The Killer Snark]

JonNonRegis -

It is morbid! I think that's the point, that it has a car-crash fascination. Martin is obviously following Shakespeare here (King Lear, Titus Andronicus etc.) in appealing to reader fascination for Grand Guignol effects. It's as if he's saying, "So this is what you came for", then delighting in making your flesh crawl. The point of this whole story axis is it's meant to be over the top.

[TheButcherCrow]

Theon is scum and a disgrace to the proud Greyjoy name. But if you don't feel a little sorry for him after reading his POV chapters in Dance you're either a sociopath or a fierce Stark supporter.

:agree: ^Yes!!!

[Theda Baratheon]

No, I don't think he deserved what Ramsay did to him, this is out-right torture you guys; you might hate what he did to the Starks (I, myself hate it) but I will not ever clap my hands and say HAHAHA THEON SHOULD HAVE HAD A WORSE PUNISHMENT because that's pretty sick.

That said, I believe this has changed his character for the better and whilst I find it hard to forgive him for taking Winterfell (though I don't really hate him for trying to bond with his Father at all). Taking Winterfell was Theon's idea and I think it'd be unfair to say he didn't care at all about the Stark's; it's evident in his POV that he did and I also can't condone the killing of two small children in front of their family (the mill).

HOWEVER, Theon is a different character to Theon/Reek; he has been reborn in a way and I see him as a gollum figure too (someone earlier in the thread mentioned this and I agree) so i'm very interested to where where his fate lies.

Sadly, someone earlier in the thread also said Theon is ''damaged beyond repair'' and I might be inclined to agree, but I hope not.

[The Killer Snark]

Let's also bear in mind that Tywin Lannister, perhaps the worst character in the whole series, dies a relatively humane death. Same thing applies to Joffrey 'Hill'.

[ckongo]

Unless Theon was guilty doing the following to people:

1)flaying fingers, toes and manhood

2)smashing teeth with a hammer and pulling them out

3)whipping and cutting

4)starving

5)leaving people in cells with no light whatsoever for long periods

then no, he did not deserve it. The punishment should fit the crime. Trying to come up with a vengeance ranking for crimes will differ with everyone. Only people like Roose and Ramsey should suffer what Theon did because they've done it to others. People like Vargo Hoat should get amputated (which I feel was one of the rare justices of the story). Theon deserved death for killing innocents.

About betrayal, some have said that Theon became a true turncloak when he took Winterfell, and have suggested he should have just stuck to raiding the coast. But remember, he's already against Robb once he aligns with Balon. He might as well jump in with both feet. How could he honestly war against Robb but not take measures to win that war when he sees opportunity? It was an impossible situation. One of two that I remember in ASOIAF; the other being Ned's choice after King Robert died.

Theon's life was hard in many respects. He was not lacking in all essentials except for family. He did not truly have one, and in a world where birth and blood mean so much, he could never be accepted with the Starks. Theon's like a foreign exchange student living with a family for an excessively long time.