The concept of "Starkness"

[Dr. Pepper]

They do have qualities that set them apart from other houses in the 7 kingdoms.

Each region has qualities that sets them apart from houses in the other 7 kingdoms.

I think that when attempting to describe the Starks, to put a definition on "Starkness", we find that we'd be pretty much describing and defining nearly everyone in the north. The only thing that sets apart the Starks is the name and this idea of wolf's blood, which can't really be easily defined anyway. It's like the 'blood of the dragon' nonsense. Viserys was a different sort of crazy from his father, Dany is a different sort of leader than Rhaegar. Jaehaerys I shares little with Maekar I. Baelor Breakspear and Aerion Brightflame were nothing alike.

[Éadaoin]

Each region has qualities that sets them apart from houses in the other 7 kingdoms.

I think that when attempting to describe the Starks, to put a definition on "Starkness", we find that we'd be pretty much describing and defining nearly everyone in the north. The only thing that sets apart the Starks is the name and this idea of wolf's blood, which can't really be easily defined anyway. It's like the 'blood of the dragon' nonsense. Viserys was a different sort of crazy from his father, Dany is a different sort of leader than Rhaegar. Jaehaerys I shares little with Maekar I. Baelor Breakspear and Aerion Brightflame were nothing alike.

What IS wolf's blood? Wildness, rashness, boldness?

[Summer is Ending]

Except Brandon at the very least. And Robb, and so many others, as the quote implies. I think "Starkness" tends to refer to "Nedness," tbh.

When people talk about Starks they talk about solemn and reserved people. Ned confirms this in his own thoughts of how Starks are. The wild wolves are the exceptions as pointed out in Ned's talk with Arya.

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

[ab aeterno]

When people talk about Starks they talk about solemn and reserved people. Ned confirms this in his own thoughts of how Starks are. The wild wolves are the exceptions as pointed out in Ned's talk with Arya.

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

Unreliable narrator, as everyone else is. Starks Ned has known, not including his children: Rickard; Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen, possibly Rickard's father, I can't remember. Lyanna: not reserved/quite wild; Brandon: not reserved/pretty wild; Benjen: inconclusive, possibly quite reserved; Rickard: inconclusive. And Ned himself. So at the very best, out of the Starks Ned has known, the breakdown is 3-2, and that's assuming that both Benjen and Rickard are/were reserved like Ned.

Also, if this is what the Starks are like, and the "wild" ones were an exception, why would they need the "wolf blood," description?

[Porcelain Steel]

How is "Starkness" defined? Sansa is every bit as much Stark as her siblings. She, like Robb and Rickon, has her mother's physical attributes, but shares more of her father's introverted personality. Arya looks more like Ned, but tends to be more feisty and quick to react like Cateyln. No one has disputed Robb's Starkness even though he looks like a Tully, or Rickon's, even though we don't really know anything about him, other than he also looks more like a Tully. So, I call b.s.

So much this. The only real argument I can see for Sansa being more like Catelyn, other then physically, is that Sansa seems to easily adapt to and enjoy the 'Southron' lifestyle that Cat comes from. Otherwise, I do see more of Ned in her, especially as she gets older. Arya can be said to be like Cat in her attitudes, because ironically, if I had to say whether Catelyn or Ned could be better described as having a 'wildness' about them, I would pick Cat. Basically, all of the Stark kids probably have inherited things from both of their parents, as one would expect.

I do think that other houses have certain traits associated with them as well (Lannisters are witty & clever, Targs have fiery tempers, etc.) but these tend to be one dimensional and stereotypical, and the concept of 'Starkness' is the same way. The strange thing about 'Starkness' is that there seem to be two different stereotypes associated with it-the idea of 'wolf's blood', and the idea of 'ice water blood', which are totally at odds with each other.

[Free Northman]

Starkness is "specialness".

As in, "the special people of the series". They are the protagonists, simple as that, and Starkness doesn't have to be defined any more clearly than that.

Other than perhaps saying that you have more Starkness if you hold your family and northern culture in general as something apart from the rest of Westeros. Sansa valued their "seperateness" less than the rest of her family did, and thus rightly gets branded as being less of a Stark.

Stark = good. Anti-Stark = bad.

That sums it all up.

[Pod The Impaler]

Just for fun:

A STARK-NESS QUIZ:

1. Your gods are:

a - Gods? There are none. [0 pts.]

b - The Great Shepherd or Great Stallion or R'Hillor [1 pt.]

c - The Seven or the Drowned God [2 pts.]

d - The Many-Faced-God [3 pts.]

e - The Old Gods [4 pts.]

2. Someone needs execution. The proper method for achieving this is:

a - Nobody deserves execution, be a humanitarian ! [0 pt.]

b - Have your men kill them secretly when you're not around [1 pt.]

c - Order your men to hang them, behead them or burn them alive [2 pts.]

d - Draw your blade and kill them yourself [3 pts.]

e - Open their throat yourself, spilling their blood next to a heart tree [4 pts.]

3. Your opinion on wolves:

a - Wolves are dirty vermin, get rid of them all [0 pt.]

b - Wolves pelts are useful to keep you warm [1 pt.]

c - Wolves are okay, so long as they do not threaten you [2 pts.]

d - Wolves are weapons: the more dire, the better [3 pts.]

e - Wolves and direwolves are sacred creatures, and also happen to be your close friends [4 pts.]

4. Why does House Stark say "Winter Is Coming" ?

a - All the good mottos were taken by the time they learned to read, LOL. [0 pts.]

b - They like to state the obvious, so they can always be right ... eventually. [2 pts.]

c - To always remind themselves of the inevitably of death [4 pts.]

5 - The Night's Watch is ...

a - An ancient and honourable order that guards the realms of men from the horrors beyond the wall [4 pts.]

b - A strange group of misfits who spend their lives worrying about grumkins and snarks [2 pts.]

c - A convenient dumping-ground for all the scum of Westeros [0 pts.]

6. What is good name for a fine sword ?

a - Ice, Needle, Longclaw [4 pts.]

b - Dark Sister, Dawn, Nightfall [3 pts.]

c - Who cares what it's called as long as it's Valyrian ? [2 pts.]

d - Lion's Tooth, Joso's Cock [1 pt.]

e - Supreme Maiden-Raping Traitor-Killer Deluxe [0 pts.]

7. How do you want to die ?

a - I will never die, I am the blood of the dragon / lion / harpy / etc. ! [0 pts.]

b - At the age of 80, in bed, with a girl's mouth around my cock [1 pt.]

c - Death by fire is the purest death [2 pts.]

d - One day I'll just tell the family I'm going hunting, and walk out into the snow [3 pts.]

e - In battle! Let me bathe in Bolton / Frey / Lannister blood before I die ! [4 pts.]

8. If you know what Hodor actually means, add 2 bonus points.

If you scored less than 10 points, you're no Stark, and better run south come winter.

If you scord 17 points or more, maybe you're a Snow

If you scored 20 or more points, you are worthy of the name Stark

If you scored over 25, you're probably a full-blooded warg going back at least 5 generations.

[straits]

I think the Starks rule the North because they have just the right mix of brutality and composure. I don't see how else they didn't just extinguish the Boltons and give their fort to either a cadet branch or another family.

[Éadaoin]

So much this. The only real argument I can see for Sansa being more like Catelyn, other then physically, is that Sansa seems to easily adapt to and enjoy the 'Southron' lifestyle that Cat comes from. Otherwise, I do see more of Ned in her, especially as she gets older. Arya can be said to be like Cat in her attitudes, because ironically, if I had to say whether Catelyn or Ned could be better described as having a 'wildness' about them, I would pick Cat. Basically, all of the Stark kids probably have inherited things from both of their parents, as one would expect.

Same, I think they clearly share similarities with both of their parents. When people say things like, "Arya is absolutely nothing like Cat", I actually feel a bit surprised. It's interesting how people's interpretations differ so much.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

On the boards it's a way to discredit Sansa. In the books it consistently refers to icewater for blood, frozen features, keeping everything inside. The wolf doesn't rage at the deer. The Starks don't rage at their enemies. They watch with cold eyes until it's time to attack.

Which brings you of course to the wolf blood, though this is hardly described as a good thing.

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

This seems very contradictory to me. If "Starkness" is defined as "icewater for blood, frozen features, keeping everything inside", then how Arya and Lyanna (the most hot-blooded Starks) have it? And how the hell is Brandon, of all people, whose boldness is said to border stupidity, unlike the calm and collected Eddard, the one with the most "wolf blood"?

To me, "Starkness" in terms of personality is a very stupid concept, because different people have different personalities within the same family, as it seems obvious.

I do believe in Starkness more in terms of appearance (Robb, Sansa, Rickon and Bran don't have it, Arya and Jon do), but even so, this is only for this generation, although people mention "Stark look" on the books, which suggests that probably it is a northern look and features which this generation doesn't have because of the unusual Tully marriage alliance.

I guess you could also talk about "Starkness" in terms of costumes or how much you value your own northern heritage, and that's when it becomes interesting: In this sense, Jon is the "Starkest" than all of Ned's trueborns.

Bran is also pretty "Stark". And little can be said about Rickon because we barely know him. Robb is pretty much a Stark, probably the more "Stark" after Jon.

Sansa begins the story fascinated by the south, courtly life and pretty much "forgets" her Starkness. But I believe she comes around as she is thought a sharp lesson by her own (and her father's) bad choices and even find solace in the gosdwood and reminesces about her home later.

Now that I think about it, this is a fault of Ned and Cat's parenting. They probably shouldn't have let her grow up so silly and spoiled, so she wouldn't have to suffer later because of that.

[Doheredw]

The strange thing about 'Starkness' is that there seem to be two different stereotypes associated with it-the idea of 'wolf's blood', and the idea of 'ice water blood', which are totally at odds with each other.

But aren't the two just different interpretations of the same thing, but from different perspectives. As the most basic aspect of both seem, to me at least, cold,calculating and dangerous. With the only differences being on acceptance by those that have it or not causing the different interpretations. And in terms of Starkness is it not a way people recognize there moral code and family upbringing.

[Ami Moonsinger]

From what I read of Arya - she is nothing like Cat - not even close. She is described as having the wolf blood - not the fish blood.

Your comment just make picture Edmure yelling "I am the blood of the fish, I will take what is mine with flippers and bathtuve water!"

[Éadaoin]

Now that I think about it, this is a fault of Ned and Cat's parenting. They probably shouldn't have let her grow up so silly and spoiled, so she wouldn't have to suffer later because of that.

I think I recall a thread that questioned Ned and Cat's parenting skills, and how they let their kids do pretty much what they wanted. It was interesting.

[jons nissa]

i think what people are talking about when they talk about starkness and use it as a way to single out sansa is the author's own bias. that's why it's so hard to put into words or find examples to support it.

grrm has stated that he created sansa last because the stark family was too similar and families aren't like that. so her raison d'etre from page 1 was to be different from the others. i don't believe that means she isn't as good or anything like that and i would wager that if you asked grrm what he thought of his own journey with sansa, he would state that he's grown to respect her a great deal more than he did at the start of the series. her story line has become one of the more interesting arcs and the tone with which she is written has softened, imho.

i agree that sansa has more of ned's character of doing what's required of a them (duty calls!) and being loyal. ironically those are the tully words but they really describe both ned and sansa very well. they were both interested in diplomacy and keeping the peace. arya indeed has more of cat in being more adventurous, stubborn and willing to fight for what she wants.

arya has the wildness that's associated with the north and by default, the starks. i agree that there are just as many quiet strarks as wild ones but it is the wild ones that people think of when they think of the north. sansa has the sophistication of the south and since her mother is from the south, people assume she's more like her. the truth is cat was perfect for the lady of winterfell. she clearly had the toughness to thrive there, something i couldn't imagine cersei, margery or ariannne doing if they had married a stark.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I think I recall a thread that questioned Ned and Cat's parenting skills, and how they let their kids do pretty much what they wanted. It was interesting.

I'm pretty libertarian in terms of parenting (not that I would ever try my hand at it: I'm a childfree for life!), but I do think Sansa needed some counseling. I mean, at the start of the series, Arya was a pretty cool and smart girl, while Sansa was very spoiled and intolerant of "non-beautiful and non-cool" people. Not to mention very attached to social status. Her uncaring for Jon and her thoughts when she saw Tyrion in Winterfell shows just that. Back in GoT she reminded me of Manson's Beautiful People... rs. Her story really is one of growth. She has became both a better and more effective person since.

[Summer is Ending]

This seems very contradictory to me. If "Starkness" is defined as "icewater for blood, frozen features, keeping everything inside", then how Arya and Lyanna (the most hot-blooded Starks) have it? And how the hell is Brandon, of all people, whose boldness is said to border stupidity, unlike the calm and collected Eddard, the one with the most "wolf blood"?

To me, "Starkness" in terms of personality is a very stupid concept, because different people have different personalities within the same family, as it seems obvious.

I do believe in Starkness more in terms of appearance (Robb, Sansa, Rickon and Bran don't have it, Arya and Jon do), but even so, this is only for this generation, although people mention "Stark look" on the books, which suggests that probably it is a northern look and features which this generation doesn't have because of the unusual Tully marriage alliance.

I guess you could also talk about "Starkness" in terms of costumes or how much you value your own northern heritage, and that's when it becomes interesting: In this sense, Jon is the "Starkest" than all of Ned's trueborns.

Bran is also pretty "Stark". And little can be said about Rickon because we barely know him. Robb is pretty much a Stark, probably the more "Stark" after Jon.

Sansa begins the story fascinated by the south, courtly life and pretty much "forgets" her Starkness. But I believe she comes around as she is thought a sharp lesson by her own (and her father's) bad choices and even find solace in the gosdwood and reminesces about her home later.

Now that I think about it, this is a fault of Ned and Cat's parenting. They probably shouldn't have let her grow up so silly and spoiled, so she wouldn't have to suffer later because of that.

I'm not sure what it is you and Abby are arguing about here.

“They say it grows so cold up here in winter that a man’s laughter freezes in his throat and chokes him to death,” Ned said evenly. “Perhaps that is why the Starks have so little humor.”

...

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

...

Ned’s father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity,

...

Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn.

...

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Solemn faces, quiet dignity, humorless, frozen. Quiet, reserved. Cold. These are all used in broad generaliztions of Stark personality traits. Traits Ned would learn listening to his father tell stories of Stark ancestors as Rickard would have learned listening to his father and so on.

Then you have,

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

To me that sounds prettly clearly like Ned considers that 'wolf blood' an exception rather than the rule of 'normal' Stark traits. Is he right? Of course not, people are people. There's nothing genetic going on here, what traits are passed on are learned at the knee, but enough Starks have clearly been cold and reserved people for this impression to form with the ones like Brandon possessing the 'wild wolf blood' to be considered different than the norm.

It's how the Starks have been portrayed from the beginning of the books. House Stark, the name alone brings it to mind. Their colors are white and grey. Their words are stark words. Winter Is Coming.

Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

the truth is cat was perfect for the lady of winterfell. she clearly had the toughness to thrive there, something i couldn't imagine cersei, margery or ariannne doing if they had married a stark.

Cersei would likelly kill Ned way faster than she killed Robert. And probably end up screwed (executed for treason) because of that a lot sooner.

Margaery is a lot smarter than people give her credit for and I think she would be ok, specially since Eddard would treat her very well and the Stark-Tyrell alliance would be a very strong alliance because of that. Margaery would trive as a winter flower.

Arianne, if she could survive the climate, would do well, too. She probably would be bored by Ned's personality and outraged she couldn't have a paramour, but other than that, she'd be ok.

[Éadaoin]

I'm pretty libertarian in terms of parenting (not that I would ever try my hand at it: I'm a childfree for life!), but I do think Sansa needed some counseling. I mean, at the start of the series, Arya was a pretty cool and smart girl, while Sansa was very spoiled and intolerant of "non-beautiful and non-cool" people. Not to mention very attached to social status. Her uncaring for Jon and her thoughts when she saw Tyrion in Winterfell shows just that. Back in GoT she reminded me of Manson's Beautiful People... rs. Her story really is one of growth. She has became both a better and more effective person since.

What's interesting is that while both Cat and Ned are well aware of social mores, they both do not hesitate to interact with those society considers beneath them. (Well, disregarding Cat and Jon, which is a bit more complicated.)

I think GRRM set out to make Arya likable to the readers from the start. And it clearly worked. He seemed to take a different tack with Sansa. While there are those who have been fans of her from the beginning, it seems like in general she has the tendency to grow on people as she develops. She really was quite different in AGOT. I wonder how she would've grown had she not endured the hardship that she did.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

To me that sounds prettly clearly like Ned considers that 'wolf blood' an exception rather than the rule of 'normal' Stark traits. Is he right? Of course not, people are people. There's nothing genetic going on here, what traits are passed on are learned at the knee, but enough Starks have clearly been cold and reserved people for this impression to form with the ones like Brandon possessing the 'wild wolf blood' to be considered different than the norm.

The way you have put it before (if you reread your other post) it seemed you were equating the "wolf's blood" with "Starkness". If that's not the case and you understand that most Starks are said to be cool and collected, Arya, Brandon and Lyanna being the exceptions, then you are right, but have written it on a dubious way before, since the quotation seemed to reinforce your concept of "Starkness". Why would you quote exactly the exception for what you are saying at the end of your (original) post?

[Summer is Ending]

The way you have put it before (if you reread your other post) it seemed you were equating the "wolf's blood" with "Starkness". If that's not the case and you understand that most Starks are said to be cool and collected, Arya, Brandon and Lyanna being the exceptions, then you are right, but have written it on a dubious way before, since the quotation seemed to reinforce your concept of "Starkness". Why would you quote exactly the exception for what you are saying at the end of your (original) post?

Is that the confusion here? I was merely bringing up the wolf's blood description as a contrast to what they consider normal Stark traits, not an additon. Thanks for letting me know I wasn't being clear.

Not sure why you would tie the two descriptions together, I clearly said it's not considered a good thing as Ned described the wolf blood to Arya as directly leading to Brandon and Lyanna's deaths but if people find it confusing I guess it's confusing.