Jojen's future

[Miss]

Or Meera (at that specific time in that specific place within a very small area of a massive cave network). Where is the Meerapaste theory? Far more likely is that they were kept away from meeting Bran after he had just seen his father at the time when he was praying to the Weirwood after bringing Jon back because they most likely know about R+L.

Far more likely this. Far more likely that. Truth is you are also asking people to believe you without offering any proof. I do not think Meera is dead. I don't know where she is. But I do think Jojen is, mainly because he was dying anyway, and second because he knew he was going to die from his dream and was very solemn about it. - See, at least I back my ideas up with evidence, rather than the term "far more likely"

[Miss]

aryagonnakill

I'll reply to your post later. No time now.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

... so you think these bones are just natural deposits of nature? ... and you think I have issues with believability?

The cave was STACKED with bones. They were on the floor, in alcoves, twisted through weirwood roots. And all this INSIDE the Children's hidey hole... I'll just leave it at that. If you walked into my house and found bones all over the place, you'd be a darn fool not to be nervous...

Noted (didn't remember the bones were on the floor, thought they were in the soil above), but this still doesn't prove anything.

Far more likely this. Far more likely that. Truth is you are also asking people to believe you without offering any proof.

The burden of proof isn't on me though. I'm offering an alternative view which I believe far less strongly than you believe Jojenpaste. My point is far more logical on the basis that it is a more logical conclusion than Jojenpaste. I'm not presenting this view as fact as you are doing with Jojenpaste.

Especially when we consider this quote.

There most interesting question was about what Meera and Jojen Reed know about the Tower of Joy. George said that the Reeds might know something about it.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6494

If the Reeds know something abotu the ToJ, then it makes sense they weren't present when Bran was beginning to see its aftermath (even if at that point Ned hadn't actually spoken to the Weirwood about Jon).

I do not think Meera is dead. I don't know where she is. But I do think Jojen is, mainly because he was dying anyway, and second because he knew he was going to die from his dream and was very solemn about it. - See, at least I back my ideas up with evidence, rather than the term "far more likely"

Yet you don't, this is the whole point. None of your arguments point to evidence of Jojen being dead.

[Miss]

When I read the scene from Dance of Dragons where they encountered the bone pit in the cave I actually thought they were there to commune with, perhaps Bloodraven can draw on all of their knowledge. In the scene I quoted Jon took the skull from the mouth of a weirwood and it was in that context that Mormont referenced the cotf. Now this really doesn't disprove the Jojen paste theory but since you used it to indicate a sinister nature in the cotf, it takes away from your claim.

How does it take away from my claim? You don’t think communing through the dead using skulls is in line with what else I’m saying? I was speaking of dark rituals and so on, this certainly sounds like one of them. If I met someone who could speak to skulls, I would certainly get the “dark witch” impression.

Second Dance with Dragons 460 "but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, brandon Stark could taste the blood." Bran knows what blood tastes like, and he does not remark that the paste tasted like blood.

Bran knows what blood tastes like from the thousand times he’s tasted it on Summer’s tongue. You don’t need to use this quote. But this means nothing, anyway. The paste Bran was given was affecting his taste on a magical level, so there is no pretext for it. Plus, the weirwood seeds likely had such a potent taste that they would drown out the taste of blood that was lightly mixed through it. The first mouthful made him gag (no doubt because of the horrid taste of the seeds), but after that the magic kicked in and he woofed it down. But I doubt you can guess ingredients in a lot of strange things you eat – I bet you’ve had all chili, coconut and pepper before, but if you ate Thai curry, would you know what was in it? Really? I don’t think so, regardless that all the ingredients are familiar to you.

These quotes together suggest to me that if men are buried in the North, possibly in areas overtaken by glaciers, after a very long period of time they become White Walkers.

Do they? I think it is just superstition that opening graves releases angry ghosts…

We know the Wights and or White Walkers will attack animals because of the bear involved in the attack on the Fist of the First men, but it is pretty confusing as to how this arrangement has come to be and what exactly it is. A sheep turned Wight is useless, as is a baby, but...

Perhaps they just found the dead bear and chose to raise it? It does not mean they attacked it. Though I would not be surprised if they did.

2.) The cotf are as best as can be ascertained, warm blooded life forms who would likely be as fine a target for a wight or White Walker as a human or bear.

Not unless the bear can ward its cave against them. Otherwise, bear is easier target.

3.) If the cotf created the Others, why have we been hearing about a great other for 4 books?

I personally think the Greenseers are the Great Others. The Greenseers are the Old Gods, as far as I can tell. The Old Gods are the Great Others. It would explain a lot about the idea that the Starks are connected to it all closely, being that they worship the Old Gods.

4.) We are told that the cotf provided the nights watch with obsidian blades

Like Sam says, “Everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes actually comes from the accounts of Septons set down thousands of years later.”

“There are Maesters in the Citidel that question it all.”

The truth is none of the oldest history can really be relied upon. And if there is some truth to it, it is entirely possible that huge amounts of it have been left out. I think Bran will be the one to fill in the gaps in the next books. He will get access to the knowledge of time that is left in the weirwood trees.

Edit: This quote almost makes me think humans could have created the White Walkers via blood sacrifice, as humans can hatch dragons with blood sacrifices. Ygrittes pure hatred of the wall makes me think there could have been people with enough anger and hatred to offer their lives for revenge.

It’s entirely possible. Like the Anvil of the Void? Hahaha

[Miss]

Here’s more from the same chapter that Bran ate the paste in:

Jojen said, “[…] Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the Old Gods. The singers believe that they are the Old Gods. When singers die they become a part of that godhood.”

Bran’s eyes widened. “They’re going to kill me?”

“No,” Meera said. “Jojen, you’re scaring him.”

“He is not the one who needs to be afraid.” [Jojen said]

So from here you can see, in the context of the Children killing people, Jojen believes he is the one who needs to be afraid. Is there a reason for this, anybody?

A few paragraphs down, they have a meal together. Blood stew. Jojen thought it was squirrel. Meera thought rat. Saga thought it might be stewed ranger. But again, the kids are eating things and we really have no idea what it is.

Later on, Leaf tells them not to go exploring in the caves because it’s “dangerous.” I think she just does not want them to stumble on their abattoir.

The chapter is very dark, guys. It’s not hard to see. These are no white witches of dawn.

After Bran eats Jojen paste, Meera is gone also. I do not think Meera is dead. This would mean Bran would turn against the Children because he is in love with Meera (and they would not make that blunder). He’d be more accepting of Jojen’s death because Jojen knew what was coming and it might be viewed (and no doubt Leaf would tell him) that he was doing a duty that he knew he was going to do all along. I think Meera is probably in a hole crying somewhere. I think we’re not shown her in this book because she knows what happened and will tell Bran, and Martin wants to give the situation a bit of time to stew before cracking the eggs and telling us that Bran and the Children are cannibals.

I think Meera will show up in the next book very early and say goodbye to Bran. Meera, Hodor and Summer will return south. I don’t think Summer can stay with Bran because Bran notes Summer gets thinner every day as there is not enough game for him. Plus, Bran does not need Summer in that cave anymore. He’s safe enough there. Plus, Bran no longer needs to be close to Summer to warg him. Nor Hodor, I reckon. I think Bran will use Hodor as a mighty Warrior with Summer by his side – Hodor will start talking as Bran breaks his silence, and no doubt the most intelligent and revealing stuff will be spoken from Hodor’s lips (role reversal). What I want to know is will Bran get some romance going with Meera through Hodor’s body?! That is truly disturbed, but Bran has already been thinking about it, about how useless his body is when Meera was crying over Jojen’s health and dreams, and Bran wondered if he should slip into Hodor’s skin so he could hold her…

[Miss]

Noted (didn't remember the bones were on the floor, thought they were in the soil above), but this still doesn't prove anything.

Yes. Decorating your home with skulls and bones proves little about ones character, I admit...

Yet you don't, this is the whole point. None of your arguments point to evidence of Jojen being dead.

I've provided plenty of evidence. Especially in my last few posts. The words you mean is fact - I have no facts. But often, neither does the story. In all the cases I am mentioning, we are led to not know the truth. We don't know about Jojen's death/dream. We don't know what the Children/Coldhands are feeding them. We don't know what's in the paste. These things are all left unanswered and the characters in the books are only "supposing" their conclusions (and they literally use that word "Bran supposed" "Meera thought" so on).

Martin is clearly leaving a lot unanswered and is leaving it up to the reader to fill in the blanks. When I point out what we do have is potentially a very dark tale/group of people, what I am saying starts to become believable...

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Yes. Decorating your home with skulls and bones proves little about ones character, I admit..

There's an army of wights outside the cave. Doubt they'll get in the habit of simply picking up a broom and sweeping them outside the cave.

I've provided plenty of evidence. Especially in my last few posts.

Evidence has to make logical sense.

The words you mean is fact - I have no facts. But often, neither does the story. In all the cases I am mentioning, we are led to not know the truth. We don't know about Jojen's death/dream. We don't know what the Children/Coldhands are feeding them. We don't know what's in the paste. These things are all left unanswered and the characters in the books are only "supposing" their conclusions (and they literally use that word "Bran supposed" "Meera thought" so on).

Martin is clearly leaving a lot unanswered and is leaving it up to the reader to fill in the blanks. When I point out what we do have is potentially a very dark tale/group of people, what I am saying starts to become believable...

Still none of this suggests that Jojen is dead. Martin leaves clues with enough evidence for us to join in the dots. The evidence is in the text (usually spread with several subtle allusions over a significant period of time) for us to formulate a strong argument because of what we know about history, characters and circumstances. Saying a paste is blood-like so Jojen is dead is not evidence, no matter how you spin it.

[The Chequered Raven]

I did not ousmart Martin. I made use of the hints he left.

The Chilren are blood mages and cannibals.

Well, this does not convince me at all, sorry.

Which hints has he left? What evidence do we have?

We have the paste, which looks like made of blood. Could be blood, but must not be. We know that the weirwood-sap looks like blood.

You say that ist must look either pink when sap and seeds are mashed together. Is there any mention about the colour of the weirwood-seeds? I Can't remember any, may you give me the quote?

We have the bones. Do we have evidence that they are human bones? Could also be animals bones. And IF they are human - is this evidence for canibalism? They are just bones, their former "owners" cold have died in a natural way.

We have meat, which Coldhands has declared as pig. Why should not live pigs in the haunted forest? Is there any mention that there are no pigs in the hounted forest? Ghost finds prey north of the wall, so there must be at least some animals, so why not pigs?

Do we have any other part in the books where ist told or at lest are a hint that the CotF are cannibals? Bloodmages?

[Aryastarkisawesome]

I assumed immediately the bones belonged to the deceased Children of the Forest

[Jynessa Blackmont]

I assumed immediately the bones belonged to the deceased Children of the Forest

True. If they don't have as many taboos about death and they lack equipment like shovels, it's entirely possible that they'd leave off until the body becomes only bones. I think it would smell horrific, but I'm not one of the children so I can't speak to their olfactory input.

As for Jojen, I think it's pretty simple. He had a task. A major task — get Bran from Winterfell to go find the three-eyed crow. He was in charge of the entire trip and didn't brook dissent, but now he's basically superfluous, Bran being far more important to the children themselves. I think depression would be a normal reaction to lacking further purpose.

I haven't made up my mind about Bloodraven. I think the nature of his powers is ambiguous, although useful. It seems entirely rational to me that they could be used for good or evil.

I agree with the earlier poster who said it was a very dark chapter. The entire storyline once they reach the cave is not only literally in the dark, it's, at best, a neutral place. They seem entirely solemn for the most part and not social beings. That wouldn't lift my mood either.

[aryagonnakill]

I don't think the bones are sinister, but I also realized that my entire post didn't really end up refuting you, I came around to your theory a bit, still not sure tho.

[aryagonnakill]

Do they? I think it is just superstition that opening graves releases angry ghosts…

certainly possible, but when you take all three points together, them sleeping in the ice for thousands of years supposedly, ygrittes comments, and their appearance I form that conclusion. Also if you read the scene where Sam stabs the Other, it describes how white bones linger a moment when the flesh melted before the bones themselves melted. They seem very human like, and I don't see a better option. The bones to me mean they are not simply ice, but then again dragons have bones too so I guess that means little. It actually fits with your theory kind of nicely, the cotf put a curse on humans by turning their dead and the only solution was to burn them. Do you have a different theory about what the others actually are? like that they were never humans

[Miss]

Evidence has to make logical sense.

No it doesn't. Do you know what evidence means? A cigarette butt found at a crime scene is evidence. The butt alone makes no sense, but it might add to a larger story as evidence that will help piece together a compelling theory.

[Miss]

Is there any mention about the colour of the weirwood-seeds? I Can't remember any, may you give me the quote?

The paste is white. If you use your brain, the dominant ingredient (the seeds) must be white. Any ingredient of any other color would darken the whiteness. Seeds are white as the wood. This conclusion comes easy to smart people.

[Miss]

We have the bones. Do we have evidence that they are human bones? Could also be animals bones. And IF they are human - is this evidence for canibalism? They are just bones, their former "owners" cold have died in a natural way.

I'm not going to answer this since you obviously can't remember a single thing in the chapter.

[Miss]

I assumed immediately the bones belonged to the deceased Children of the Forest

I had that thought too. Especially the bones that belonged to the Giants. They were just overgrown Children.

[Miss]

I think depression would be a normal reaction to lacking further purpose.

Yes. I don't think the greendream where he dies plays any significant part to his mood either.

[andrew_]

Can we at least agree that Jojen won't live to see the end of tWoW?

[Empire]

Jojen is a delicious paste and will not appear anymore.

Jojen mysteriously vanishes in a chapter where he says he needs to be afraid instead of "today I am not going to die".

There is deliberate, unsettling imagery (bones, decay, sacrifice, death, etc.).

It is possible that Bran ate Jojen (I believe that is going to be the case) or maybe he didn't. I think it is very clear that we are not meant to leave that chapter feeling happy. I think the act of evil that would be sufficient to necessitate a heel-face turn for Bran/Brynden/COTF would be killing a Reed.

Look - this is fiction so it is what the author wants. Martin eventually wants Jojen dead, and I wouldn't put it past him to kill him in an awful fashion.

[Miss]

Can we at least agree that Jojen won't live to see the end of tWoW?

No. He won't be in the WoW. Not unless Bran sees him in the past through a tree thingy as he's getting butchered for supper.

_________

Sorry all my posts were sarcastic and lazy yesterday. But a lot of people are coming here and telling me I'm wrong when they clearly have only read the chapter once and forgotten most of it at that. Bones all belonging to the Children just there as natural deposits, for example, when it clearly said that human and giant skulls had been deliberately placed in small hollows to decorate the walls...

The thing I want to make clear and you should go read is Bran is not told the paste contains weirwood sap - that is Bran's own unbacked theory. He looks at it and reflects it looks like blood and then "supposes" it must be sap, all without being told or asking. So looks like blood, supposes sap, both are 50 50 what it might actually be. But to those who read the Children chapters again with this theory in mind will begin to see a very dark side that is clearly there, evidence of what I'm saying.

I've got nothing left to add. So I'm out of this thread.