Jojen's future

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

"He wants to go home, he won't even fight his fate he says the greendreams do not lie."

"He's being brave"

"He's being stupid. I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow(we could go home?).... now I wonder why we ever came(if he's going to die)."

Give Jojen credit. He knew he was going on a suicide mission and was pretty brave about till it got close to the end. Howland sent them to Winterfell to free the winged wolf from his chains. Check. They brought him to the three eyed crow. Check. Jojen says that his part in this is done.

What did Meera hope would happen when they found Bran's three eyed crow? Did she have some childhood fantasy like Bran getting his legs fixed?

He wants to go home but he knows that he can't, it goes against what he's seen in his greendreams.

Bran is trying to act brave and not cry but yet Meera cries a few times that chapter. Being almost as old as Robb. It pretty much says that Jojen is going to die soon.

I don't believe Jojen is ground up into weirwood paste though. The blood mixed in with the weirwood seeds is from people would've been sacrificed infront of heart trees. Jojen could've been or will be that person.... It makes sense for weirwood paste to be what they say it is because we see how he easily starts seeing things through his connection with his most familiar heart tree at winterfell.

[Brownk48]

I was not aware of the Jojen paste theory when I started this post, but whitefawn's multiple quotes has pushed me to this theory. What confuses me is why Jojen would do this... I always felt that Jojen knew how he would die (remember the direwolf part in aSoS) so why would he subject himself to this fate? Perhaps BR has been tricking his greendreams into believing the journey north of the wall would be beneficial for them all....

On a side note, you would think that the bones in the cave would have been devoured into the soil by now if they have been there for hundreds of years...

[Chocolate_dream]

Jojen was sacrificed. His death has been foreshadowed since he first appeared and that final chapter is littered with clues.

Bran's last weirwood vision was probably Jojen being sacrificed which is why he screamed and then woke up to the taste of blood.

[chrisdaw]

The final vision is not Jojen being sacrificed, the visions descend through history and the people doing the sacrificing are no-one in the vicinity of the cave.

[Chocolate_dream]

Ahhh Saga Whitefawn, I can't wait till the next book comes out, we shall see who wins and who dies.

Four words: two Reeds one bowl.

I can't believe that a religious sacrifice is so hard for people to believe. It's not like it's unheard of.

[Mulled Wino]

Well this is the thing, the Others either might not be evil, or they might be at least misunderstood. Are the Others trying to destroy the realm? Do you have proof? That is an assumption. Saying the Others want to destroy the realm is no different than saying Dany wants to destroy the realm. They might both be invaders, yes, but who's to say that the Others do not have a right to do so? Dany wants to reclaim the realm. If there is a connection between the Others and the Children and the Starks, it is entirely possible that the Others are a tool used by the Children to reclaim their lost Kingdom, along with the firstmen (Starks) who also worship the old gods and respect the same things the Children do.

You have jumped to a conclusion that every block headed Black Brother and Wildling makes. Open you eyes and mind and try to think more objectively.

I appreciate that you had this idea, but I think you missed something.

Mel describes an arch nemesis as something like sitting in shadow, one eyed - she is describing Bloodraven, her ultimate foe.

When you say "Same side" you are meaning sides of good and evil, I think. Which is where you er. Niether are good and evil, I think. They are simply two forces fighting each other for domination. In which case, Mel has not misinterpreted her foe. She has merely identified him for us. That Mel points the finger at Bloodraven when she is actively fighting the Others paints a clear connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others (assuming Mel is right, which I think she is in this at least).

But if I'm right, then Jojen also worships the old gods and thus is allied with the Others. He would not be sad about it. I think he is sad because he will die, but he does his duty anyway for the greater good (aiding the Others and the old gods).

There's more evidence that the Others want to destroy the realm and are evil than there is that Bran drank Jojen paste.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Four words: two Reeds one bowl.

I can't believe that a religious sacrifice is so hard for people to believe. It's not like it's unheard of.

It's more the crippling lack of evidence and/or logic that makes it hard to believe.

[Harlan]

Some problems with the Jojen paste theory:

1. Even if the red stuff Bran ate was blood, that doesn't mean the blood was human blood. It doesn't even mean the blood donor is dead. I donated blood 3 times last year and spilt my blood more times than i can count. I'm not dead. Bran may have eaten jojen-paste and jojen could still be alive.

2. As far as I can tell, the only evidence anyone has that jojen is actually dead (as opposed to "will be dying soon") is that jojen isn't seen in the last Bran chapter. There is no sign of a struggle between say, meera and the CotF. Wouldn't meera fight to protect her younger brother? Why is their no evidence of this fight?

Now, on to the other evidence for jojen-paste theory

the following quote is courtesy of the sellsword Saga Whitefawn

Jojen said, “[…] Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the Old Gods. The singers believe that they are the Old Gods. When singers die they become a part of that godhood.”

Bran’s eyes widened. “They’re going to kill me?”

“No,” Meera said. “Jojen, you’re scaring him.”

“He is not the one who needs to be afraid.” [Jojen said]

Whitefawn believes that this quote means that Jojen is saying that Jojen should be afraid. This is not necessarily true. Jojen simply states that someone (who isn't bran) should be afraid. Isn't it perfectly possible that jojen was talking about meera or someone else who was around at that time?

(I seem to recall that the quote comes from when Bran was with the CotF. As there are no citations to go with Whitefawn's quote I have been unable to check who could have been around.)

Also, cannibalism is the practice of eating the flesh of your own kind. COTF eating humans isn't cannibalism. Cannibalism isn't even all that bad. It can be observed throughout the animal kingdom. According to the wiki page, cannibalism has been observed in over 1500 species. It is a normal part of many animals lives. In the World of Ice and Fire (WoIaF) the only blood magic we've seen has nothing to do with cannibalism and the only cannibalism we've seen has nothing to do with magic.

I feel like I'm rambling so I'm going to start this post right...

[Khal_Rhaego]

You left out some other pieces of evidence.

1. Within ASOIAF, magic always comes with a price

a. Only death can pay for life

b. The only other human Greenseer has lived much longer than a person normally could

2. Jojen gets very depressed in the cave (by itself not very damning, but...)

3. Jojen knows the day he will die

4. He tells Bran "My task was to get you here. My part in this is done."

5. Meera mentions a greendream Jojen has about returning to Greywater Watch. It's not a happy hoecoming.

6. In his last vision inside the weirwood, Bran sees a women kill a man as a sacrifice to the Old Gods. We also know that the First Men dismembered people and hung them up Xmas ornament style. And in the cave there are hundreds of human and animal bones, but the children haven't brought fresh meat to any of their guests (besides cave fish). Why are the bones there?

It's because human sacrifice is a major part of the Singer's religion. If a person is conscious inside a weirwood receiving the sacrifice, I'd say cannibalism has played a role in that magic.

[xRobbStarkx]

"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."

I don't see how this quote doesn't completely dispel the Jojen paste theory. The quote as written means that Jojen going home is directly tied to his fate. If his greendream showed him being eaten by a wolf, what would that have to do with him going home? For you to read this and think Jojen saw himself being turned into paste or eaten in the cave, why would there be a reference to his home at all. If his dream said he would die in the cave, then him wanting to go home would be him wanting to fight his fate, which it says he is not. Or else Meera just threw in a non sequitur about Jojen wanting to go home, which seems pretty unlikely.

To the Jojen paste theorists, please explain the reference to his home and this sentence which seems to be in direct conflict with your theory. Maybe George R.R. Martin suddenly got super spiritual and religious, and Meera was speaking cryptically about Jojen going home to heaven....................not a chance. This seems to be hard evidence that Jojen's home and his fate are directly linked.

[Khal_Rhaego]

If I knew I was going to be killed and part of me was going to be made into a paste, I would want to go home too. It doesn't say he doesn't want to fight his fate, only that he won't even try.

Bran only had a bowl of paste. There is still some Jojen left over to be taken back to Greywater Watch where he will be remembered as the hero that helped the wolf get his wings.

[JungWheats]

"my job was to get you here...my part is done." My part was to get you here, not to get sausaged for you. I'm pretty much down for the Jojen paste, though. That provides Bran the catalyst to make an escape from the Children who are actually the others and Jon up with the Reanimated Jon (possibly to save him from his Night's King status), against the big wight army at the end. Jojen paste gets Bran back out of the cave with his powers, and knowledge of the real enemy. In the Dunk and Egg stories nobody really has any positive thoughts about Bloodraven, and I find it hard to believe that he's living underground allied with the side of good.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Let us not forget another controversial clue. I realize this can be read many ways, but on my first reading, when I got to the last Bran chapter, I recalled this quote and immediately recognized the connection:

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only...

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

This quote came all the way from Clash of Kings. Some interpret this as the wolf sensing Bran in the Crypts. I never did. Later, I always connected it to Bran in the Cave. Sure, it happens way before Bran gets to the cave, but the Wierwood network doesn't follow linear time, so the Wolf could have been sensing what was to come and/or Bran may have been reaching out through the past.

And there is something else that struck me: (From the last chapter in DoD)

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their

own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens

could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him

and peck his skin when they heard the songs.

Why do the ravens caw and peck at his skin when they hear the songs? Is it that they are interpreting the words and trying to warn Bran?

And with regards to the bones they step on as they descend into the cave - throughout history, people had funerary rights for their dead. When someone died, they were buried, or burned or put into a river, with ceremony and reverance. Why would the Children of the Forest simply leave the bones to rot on the floor? It doesn't make sense. You would think that they would have some sort of funerary customs for their own dead.

When I read these chapters, I get a sense of dread and foreboding. Whether Jojen was made into paste, or not, I don't think the Children of the Forest has customs that Bran and co. would consider savory.

And then there is the emphasis on blood sacrifice for those who hold the old ways. The books are littered with references to blood sacrifice, and none more prominent that the blood sacrifice that Bran actually witnesses. Why is this called up time and time again if it doesn't mean something? I believe that the Children of the Forest do practice blood sacrifice for their magic. Why not? The dragon's birth required it. Melisandre requires it for her magic. Only life can pay for life, etc. Anything worth doing requires the blood sacrifice in these religions it seems. The CotF may not be evil, necessarily, but they may know that this is the only way to acheive their means. And they don't tell Bran and co because they don't want to scare them.

Lastly, with regards to Jojen, he sits at the mouth of the cave, morose. As if he's trying to get away from whatever is scaring him. If he was more afraid of what's outside, he might sit away from the cave entrance. He's clearly not comfortable inside the cave with the CotF. Remember also that Jojen's dreams are hard to interpret clearly outside of context. Until Winterfell was taken by Theon, he didn't immediately understand the sea coming over the walls. It made sense only after. Maybe the reason why Jojen has only become afraid is because he understands the context of his death now that he's in the cave, understands Bran's training, and has talked with the CotF. Now the reality of his death has become clear, and he wants to go home. Now, he's acting more like the child that he is - afraid of dying, but knowing he can't do anything to change it. Besides, he knows he can't leave and get back without freezing, or getting wight-ified, so he's helpless to do anything but fret.

[bemused]

There's nothing to say the CoTF practised blood sacrifice , but there are some hints that the first men did. Their particular practices could have been a blending of the CoTF beliefs with long held beliefs they brought with them. We don't know.

If Ygritte's " All men die ,and all women ,too" traces back to CoTF beliefs , it seems to me to suggest death is just part of the natural cycle , not in itself ,particularly pleasing or displeasing to the gods ..while something that threatens to break the cycle ( i.e. the Others could wipe out the "life" part of it , completely) would probably be seen as an offensive to the gods.

All the bones suggest to me putting the dead in the most likely place for them to be able to become one with the gods...with the weirwoods ,by the roots , if possible. Perhaps only greenseers can truly physically "bond" with the trees , but being interred close to them is the next best thing. The bones of men and the bones of animals suggest skinchangers.

ETA. The bones aren't all just on the floor .They fill side galleries , are placed in niches all over the place. If this is the last main CoTF refuge , they may be just running out of space.

The ravens may be warning Bran , or just trying to get his attention..sort of punctuating the singers' song ? ( like we see Mormont's raven behave so often )

[Patrick Tully]

This quote came all the way from Clash of Kings. Some interpret this as the wolf sensing Bran in the Crypts. I never did. Later, I always connected it to Bran in the Cave. Sure, it happens way before Bran gets to the cave, but the Wierwood network doesn't follow linear time, so the Wolf could have been sensing what was to come and/or Bran may have been reaching out through the past.

But the next time we see Bran (when he is revealed to be alive) we get this:

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that.

[MDT]

I can't seen them killing Jojen and feeding him to Bran without Brans knowledge for the simple fact that Bran's reaction would be unpredictable once he finds out (he's still a kid).

[SeanSnow]

He knows his death is close. Maybe he knows it will be painful. OR he suspects he will become a white walker!

I like the blood sacrifice theory, its plausible.

[Tyrion4President]

Make sure you read my previous post.

It's possible the Others are created as a weapon, some think. The way Coldhands is controlled suggests they might have been created to be controlled, but control was lost for some reason (I doubt cutting down weirwoods helped, for example).

I'm not ready to dismiss the entire idea of the alliance I suggested based on one thing that the Children armed the Brothers with obsidian. I think there is too much in support to be overthrown by one thing. You must needs do better.

This may have already been established but do you think there is someone possibly warging the dead hence why the wights rise? We've seen so far that Bran and Varymr have both had trouble warging another person but what if that person is dead then their mind cant fight warg-er. Maybe the great other(s) is controlling them by warging them. Any ideas to expand my theory?

[The_Lord's_Kiss]

Maybe Jojen is so frail because it is actually Howland Reed, who has not been seen in person by the reader, to protect Bran because he saw was what was to happen to Bran, Ned, and the Starks. As an ally and friend to Ned, and his greendream to take Bran to the 3EC he poses as a child. Might explain why he acts like a grandfather.

[Tyrion4President]

Maybe Jojen is so frail because it is actually Howland Reed, who has not been seen in person by the reader, to protect Bran because he saw was what was to happen to Bran, Ned, and the Starks. As an ally and friend to Ned, and his greendream to take Bran to the 3EC he poses as a child. Might explain why he acts like a grandfather.

Although we havent seen Howland other people in the story have and they know jojen is not howland.