Jojen's future

[bemused]

Wait a minute..cannibalistic blood mages? ..The whole race ?

There's a possibility there were factions among the CoTF from time to time , some more extreme than others ( we don't know yet ).. if they're anything at all like humans , that wouldn't be strange.. But if blood magic and cannibalism was very prevalent among them, you'd think more references to those things would have made their way into the human folklore about them...So far , I don't think we've heard anything like that.

The Giants, their brothers and their bane , called them the squirrel people ... Leaf says, because they were small and quick and were fond of the trees . But we can associate other things with squirrels ...They are known as hoarders ; tree squirrels live in trees ; ground squirrrels live in burrows in the ground. Some ground squirrels hibernate for part of the year ; tree squirrels don't , but stick so close to their nests in winter , that many people think they do. They mostly don't eat meat, but will supplement their diet with it now and then...

We haven't heard what Giants have to say , yet , but they might have named the CoTF for more reasons than those Leaf ennumerates....The ones we meet are living in a cave , but apparently in the past, they also had tree cities .. I'm waiting for Wun Wun or someone to elaborate.

( And just as a matter of curiosity , I'd like to know in what way the Giants were their brothers and in what way their bane . )

"It's said the CoTF could commune with the dead ".. this could be an idea growing out of the greenseers' ability to see the past, their keeping of history..watered down for human consumption... except we have Leaf's emphatic warning to Bran not to seek to call Ned back ( I took her to mean Ned's spirit , since his body was not present ).. So it must be possible , or there would be no need for a warning. Perhaps such a thing has been done..but didn't work out well.

I have to say, the bones conjured up no images of abattoirs or blood magic to me, nor did the absence of any mention of Meera and Jojen in the latter part of that chapter. I did think that the Reeds and "Hodor's" explorations were probably setting the stage for some future action , though.

Leaf says the Cotf have been in that place for ,I think , a thousand thousand years ..In light of that , the bones do bring a number of things to mind, but not cannibalism or blood magic sacrifices... Bones on the floor of birds and beasts ..well the CoTF do eat some meat .They keep goats in the cave, all those ravens can't live forever, and there are rats ( that could account for some )..We know they hunted in the past ..maybe until fairly recently , when the game began to disappear.. But the skulls in niches carved into the walls, ( and the whole side caverns filled with bones ) suggested other things..it seemed rather reverential ( not decoration ,so much as shrines )..like the special repositories kept by people who either worship their ancestors , or commune with them , or regard them as guardian spirits... And the vast majority of the bones were of CotF.

A wolf skull was mentioned among the animal skulls and that made me think of Ned returning Lady's bones for burial at Winterfell. The CoTF were always skinchangers. What would they do with an animal they were bonded with that died before them ? ..Then again , Bran noticed a half a dozen human skulls .. (that still didn't make me think , dinner ) .. perhaps they were skinchangers ..perhaps they were allies .. or even much respected enemies.

Likewise , with the skulls and bones of giants ..would they be more in the brother category, or the bane ?

And speaking of Ned ,are we not reminded of the crypts under WF? There is, of course, another similarity... As in the cave , the lower crypts at WF are said to be too dangerous to explore..however it's widely speculated that there is something down there , some object , magic or possibly a secret passage...Hmmmmm. ( but I don't think it will be an abattoir in either case ).

There are lots of rumors of cannibalism in the books and there are different forms of cannibalism, but so far , the only actual case we can be 100% sure of is that of the poor starving culprits that were burned in Stannis' camp. That's not to say some form of it doesn't or didn't , at some point , exist in the places where it's been reported. We'll have to wait to see how those play out.

And I'm not entirely sure about the rangers..they were foes , and CH probably did need to kill them ..and he did need to get some sustenance into his charges , or they weren't going to make it ...and he might also have found a pig..we don't know... If it was Ranger flesh, it was an act of extreme necessity , but not necessarily indoctrination or initiation.

Weirwood sap has made many characters think of blood , and people, especially those not of the old religion often find weirwoods creepy. But even those perfectly familiar with them frequently liken the sap to blood.When Bran thinks it looks like blood , we think..oh, like weirwood sap. The seeds have never been described as far as I recall.

The greendreams don't lie..but they're subject to interpretation. Even Jojen believes that of the two , greendreamers and greenseers ,the greenseers are the greater.. and we see that greenseers , if they act rather than just observe, can influence/ affect the future. Therefore, Jojen's dream about his death ( which he dreamed much earlier) is plausibly subject to change ( or to a new interpretation - it's always more difficult to interpret things involving oneself , than those involving others ).

I see the fact that we haven't been told what his dream was as a hopeful sign..it would be most effective( from a storytelling standpoint ) coming from him ( I don't think he's even told Meera, yet ).

I could go on , but that's it for now. Needless to say, I think the claims of Jojen's demise are premature.

ETA: I'd like to know what the dream was that Jojen had when he woke up by the fire in the cave " I just had the strangest dream ".. maybe it was of the rescue , or...?

[The Chequered Raven]

bemused, I totallky agree to yor post.

Maybe, in some cases the Weirwoods require blood-sacrifices or human sacrifices, but thats something different to "all CotF are Cannibals".

I do not see any evidence of cannibalism.

I've reread the passage with the bones in the cave, and the first thing that came to my mind were the catacombs of Paris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris

[bemused]

That's a really good example , DogsOfWar... They may have been in that place for a very long time..but it doesn't seem to me like it was originally a dwelling, or city .. it feels more like a sanctuary...

It makes me think of the wildlings ( and Wun WUn) that Jon and the new brothers found when they went to swear their vows ... The wildlings said the Gods were there, so they thought it was the safest place they could be.

Historically , the cave may just have been a place where the CoTF brought their dead to be one with the gods, a religious site .. but in extremity, it's the safest place they can be. Leaf doesn't say they've lived in that place... Bran estimates there's only about 60 of them ( which may not include the other CoTF singers he finds ). Still , that's it ? If their magic is necessary to help stop the others, everyone really better get it right this time.

[andrew_]

Ahhh Saga Whitefawn, I can't wait till the next book comes out, we shall see who wins and who dies.

[johnsnowisnedsnephew]

Well this is the thing, the Others either might not be evil, or they might be at least misunderstood. Are the Others trying to destroy the realm? Do you have proof? That is an assumption. Saying the Others want to destroy the realm is no different than saying Dany wants to destroy the realm. They might both be invaders, yes, but who's to say that the Others do not have a right to do so? Dany wants to reclaim the realm. If there is a connection between the Others and the Children and the Starks, it is entirely possible that the Others are a tool used by the Children to reclaim their lost Kingdom, along with the firstmen (Starks) who also worship the old gods and respect the same things the Children do.

You have jumped to a conclusion that every block headed Black Brother and Wildling makes. Open you eyes and mind and try to think more objectively.

I appreciate that you had this idea, but I think you missed something.

Mel describes an arch nemesis as something like sitting in shadow, one eyed - she is describing Bloodraven, her ultimate foe.

When you say "Same side" you are meaning sides of good and evil, I think. Which is where you er. Niether are good and evil, I think. They are simply two forces fighting each other for domination. In which case, Mel has not misinterpreted her foe. She has merely identified him for us. That Mel points the finger at Bloodraven when she is actively fighting the Others paints a clear connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others (assuming Mel is right, which I think she is in this at least).

But if I'm right, then Jojen also worships the old gods and thus is allied with the Others. He would not be sad about it. I think he is sad because he will die, but he does his duty anyway for the greater good (aiding the Others and the old gods).

Not sure about the others somhow turning out to be good guys. Here's a quote from George himself

Martin also reflects on why his series is called A Song of Ice and Fire, saying, “People say I was influenced by Robert Ford’s poem, and of course I was, I mean… Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.”

I kind of like what you're saying though in that right from the start these books have the theme that power belongs to those who can take and hold it. If the others can take it then it belongs to them, but i don't think that they are misunderstood, they are what they appear to be.

[bemused]

Mel is severely hampered by her religious views. She worships a jealous and cruel god. Since she's been taught that there is only R'Hllor and the Great Other , any source of power she sees or senses that doesn't seem to be connected to her god ,to her mind must be evil, and connected to the Great Other.

I wouldn't take her interpretation of her vision of Bloodraven and Bran as evidence of anything except her own brainwashing.

[northernshe-wolf]

I personally think Jojen's depression is because he know's he's dying. Probably not, but it's possible. Meera also starts crying during that scene, so maybe she knows, too. He never said "Today is not the day I die," around that time, so that's what I'm predicting.

[Bronn's Son]

My first post. This forum is awesome. Saga Whitefawn, you're starting to win me over with the whole Jojenpaste theory. I think it's possible. I'm not sold on the Children being "bad guys" though.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

No it doesn't.

Um, yes it does.

Do you know what evidence means? A cigarette butt found at a crime scene is evidence.

Only if it's relevant and logical and coherent.

The butt alone makes no sense, but it might add to a larger story as evidence that will help piece together a compelling theory.

So when you find evidence (not conjecture, not stabs in the dark, actual text based evidence which suggests that Jojen is dead), I shall give Jojenpaste the time of day.

[liliette]

Though I too suspect that Jojen has dreamed of his upcoming death, he usually tempers his greendreams w/ a sagacity which gave him the nickname "little grandfather." I wonder if there wasn't a natural explanation for his depression. He's a green fella. He comes from a warm, swampy place. He's in the snowy north lands, which almost killed him from the trek alone. He's now underground in a dark, damp cave. If you were 1 who thrived being in nature, wouldn't you go batty being stuck underground in a cave w/o the ability to escape into other creatures like Bran?

[liliette]

Not sure about the others somhow turning out to be good guys. Here's a quote from George himself

Martin also reflects on why his series is called A Song of Ice and Fire, saying, "People say I was influenced by Robert Ford's poem, and of course I was, I mean… Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books."

I kind of like what you're saying though in that right from the start these books have the theme that power belongs to those who can take and hold it. If the others can take it then it belongs to them, but i don't think that they are misunderstood, they are what they appear to be.

I know that you were quoting a source, but I wanted to point out that the source is incorrect. It's a Robert Frost poem- "Fire and Ice". I didn't want there to be any confusion. And also, in the poem, both fire and ice are sufficient to destroy the world. =)

[Whitering]

I don't know about how being super cold, and dehydrated and poorly fed can lead to death even after you are warm and fed, but I am sure there is some sort of deadly disease out there associated with such a situation, I just don't fee like googling it.

He probably destroyed himself making the trip and is fading, maybe there really is nothing he can do to stop it, I mean, he was not exactly buff before the trip, like Meera, and not young and resilient like Bran. Hodor is half giant, so he's fine of course.

[SkyBry]

So Bran eating uncle BJ is possible?!

*crackpot*

[Miss]

I wonder if there wasn't a natural explanation for his depression. He's a green fella. He comes from a warm, swampy place. He's in the snowy north lands, which almost killed him from the trek alone. He's now underground in a dark, damp cave. If you were 1 who thrived being in nature, wouldn't you go batty being stuck underground in a cave w/o the ability to escape into other creatures like Bran?

Yes, but all this asks more of belief than anything I said. The part I quoted where Jojen said that Bran's "not the one who needs to be afraid" in respect to the Children coupled with his mysterious greendream he does not talk about and the fact he's so weak give more cause to believe that he thinks he's going to die SOON rather than making up random stories like you do...

[Mr Hodor]

i dont think jojen was fed to bran.

1. bran would know...he is a greenseer afterall.....and would be pissed off at 3EC. Might refuse to help him

2. Jojen would not have entered the cave if he know his death was there (unless he was a willing sacrifice)

3. Even if blood was required why not use some other greenseer rather than a friend of bran. There are many in the wildlings i suppose.

[bemused]

Jojen probably does believe he's going to die soon. That's not a reason to jump to the conclusion that he already has died. ..We don't know his dream .. he could be wrong ... We also don't know what the dream was that he had when they first arrived.. It may have been some awareness of their rescue... but that whole scene was very tense , action-filled and frightening.. and he was smiling as he thought of the dream . He called it the strangest dream..not the most exciting or terrifying , as you might expect after what they'd been through ... I think there's something worthy of curiosity there.

And as GRRM has said , if we haven't seen a character die , our doubts are not misplaced ( paraphrase ).. He may still kill him off , mind you... but I don't think it will be before we know more about Jojen's dream(s). I think it would be very un-George like. He's told us so many characters' dreams ..(that we're still discussing )..it would be very odd not to tell us of Jojen's , of all people...and it just wouldn't be the same if it was related after the fact.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

Jojen will die. It is known.

Valar Mourgulis

[Miss]

He's told us so many characters' dreams ..(that we're still discussing )..it would be very odd not to tell us of Jojen's , of all people...

Yes... it is very odd indeed. Yet none of you seem to make use of that fact.

[Runaway Penguin]

One theory that sounded plausible: Jojen was on remote by Howland. Connection was lost when he passed through the Wall... So now he is suddenly in "what the hell am I doing here?" situation.

[Black Crow]

bemused, I totallky agree to yor post.

Maybe, in some cases the Weirwoods require blood-sacrifices or human sacrifices, but thats something different to "all CotF are Cannibals".

I do not see any evidence of cannibalism.

I've reread the passage with the bones in the cave, and the first thing that came to my mind were the catacombs of Paris http://en.wikipedia....acombs_of_Paris

Its worth remembering that hollow tree at Whitetree with the skulls and ashes inside. As was discussed long long ago it wouldn't have been possible to cremate anyone in the tree without burning the whole thing down, so presumably here we have at least two individuals whose bodies have been burned rather than put into the earth - presumably to prevent them being raised again as wights - but then the bones, which of course remember, have been placed directly within the weirwood.

Interpreting the bone chambers as catacombs is entirely consistent with this. The Children believe that when they die they go into the earth and through the earth into the roots and so into the trees to become part of the godhead, and that's what we could be seeing here. Digging actual graves in the earth obviously isn't an option in stone caverns, hence the catacombs.