bemused Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Yes... it is very odd indeed. Yet none of you seem to make use of that fact.Well , I'm making use of it..It leads me to think that it will be revealed in future , and by Jojen himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Magic Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Ive read somewhere that J has to go back home before he dies.. No J paste.. I think he's depressed because his journey with Bran is over and he has to go home..to his death. I'll find quotes later. On my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Ive read somewhere that J has to go back home before he dies.. No J paste.. I think he's depressed because his journey with Bran is over and he has to go home..to his death. I'll find quotes later. On my phone.I think thats the case too.Knowing you will die if you go but also you have to go for some reason.His sister is sad because he has to go alone someone has to stay with bran and since there is no use for him staying he will go.Maybe bran and meera are destined to be more then friends?By the way is it official that Bran will never have children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlan Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 He's paralyzed from the waist down. I think it's safe to assume bran can't have children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Ive read somewhere that J has to go back home before he dies.. No. (For the millionth time) Meera tells him in her distress that he is being silly and is going to die in the Neck where Reeds are supposed to die old and gray. But this has nothing to do with his dream and Jojen doesn't believe it. It is just Meera trying to talk things up. You all have misremembered.The closest evidence we have to Jojen's fears and perhaps greendream is what I already quoted. Again:Jojen said, “[…] Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the Old Gods. The singers believe that they are the Old Gods. When singers die they become a part of that godhood.”Bran’s eyes widened. “They’re going to kill me?”“No,” Meera said. “Jojen, you’re scaring him.”“He is not the one who needs to be afraid.” [Jojen said] Which suggests Jojen fears that he is in danger (where Bran is not) and it has to do with the Children and thus his immediate self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 That does not say that he fears for himself. He tells Meera that she should be scared, too. Bran is the only one needed, both Meera and Jojen have served their purpose already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Magic Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Ive read that quote a million times and it means nothing. Look on the wiki it says Jojen has a greendream about his fate when he goes back to Greywater Watch meaning he is going home and hes going to die there... End of argument!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Magic Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Jojen said he wants to go home and that he does not wish to fight his fate anymore which implies he will die on his way or when he is home.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Yes. There's nothing in what Jojen says that implies that what he fears is coming from the Children. He may be right that his dreams are always true..but often in a roundabout way..and even he doesn't always fully understand the implications . He knew the sea was coming to WF ... but not that it would manifest as an invasion by Ironborn.He saw Bran and Rickon dead on the ground and Reek skinning their faces. Well , Bran and Rickon are still with us , yet the dream was true.. So Jojen's dream of his own death may not be as "right" as he thinks it is , at least not in the way he imagines.Then we have the fact that all BR's efforts in convincing Jojen to get Bran to the north appear to be part of his attempt at altering ( or ensuring )the future . And there are hints from the Theon chapters , including the gift chapter , that imply that with Bran's powers added to BR's efforts , such alterations have more hope for success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 That does not say that he fears for himself.It seems to imply that, in my eyes. It's a pretty common way of speaking. And if he is not talking solely about himself, including Meera in the warning hardly changes things. If he had a greendream where he was getting eaten by a wolf pup (which is what I think), there's no real reason he should not worry for Meera too without it changing the idea.He tells Meera that she should be scared, too.Where? Quote it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Ive read that quote a million times and it means nothing. Look on the wiki it says Jojen has a greendream about his fate when he goes back to Greywater Watch meaning he is going home and hes going to die there... End of argument!!The wiki just makes stuff up. It does not confirm int he book that Jojen's fate seen in the greendream ends at Greywater Watch. I'd challenge you to quote from the book where it actually does confirm that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Jojen said he wants to go home and that he does not wish to fight his fate anymore which implies he will die on his way or when he is home..He says he wants to go home, not that he will go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Yes. There's nothing in what Jojen says that implies that what he fears is coming from the Children.How can you say that? That is directly what it implies. Whether or not that is what it is is open for debate, but it is certainly implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_ Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 How can you say that? That is directly what it implies. Whether or not that is what it is is open for debate, but it is certainly implied. learn to multiquote please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 *** She would often sit with Bran beside their little fire , talking of everything and nothing, petting Summer where he slept between them , whilst her brother wandered the caverns by himself. Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave's mouth when the day was bright, he would stand there for hours , looking out over the forest , wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same. "He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. " he will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie. " ***He wants to go home. He will not even try and fight his fate. To me , this clearly links his fate with home.Jojen is restless , wandering the caverns even by himself , though that's dangerous .What is he looking for ? ..Possibly a way out ? He stands for hours looking out over the forest during the day ( when the wights are inactive ), shivering ...But he's wrapped in furs , so he's not shivering from cold.If his death is destined in that place and he will not try to fight his fate, why does he seem to be seeking ...something ? Why not just throw himself down one of the chasms...or into the river ? Why not just start out across the snow and let the wights finish him ? Why not just lie there and wait for it ,instead of prowling around ? ...For that matter , he and Meera both have knives...It seems to me he feels his fate calling to him , but it's elsewhere. He wants to go home.. I think he would set out across the snow , but he knows he wouldn't get far, so he's wandering the caverns looking for some other route. If he's not fighting his fate ( and Meera ought to know if anyone does) , then his actions are part of what he thinks will fulfill it.He believes his part in the great adventure has ended . He sees no other purpose but to go to meet his fate. He wants to go home.How can you say that? That is directly what it implies. Whether or not that is what it is is open for debate, but it is certainly implied.I don't see that as the only possible implication.. it's one of many possible implications (I guess , since there are people who read it that way ) .. but I happen to think it's one of the less likely ones. Your understanding ( and you're welcome to it ) is not mine. In the absence of direct proof ,we'll just have to wait to find out Jojen's precise meaning.I assume Jojen does have a future .. How lengthy a future , I don't know .. but nothing anyone has said on this thread or others , convinces me his life is over ,due to his blood being used in the preparation of weirwood paste....The arguments simply don't hold up , to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 *** She would often sit with Bran beside their little fire , talking of everything and nothing, petting Summer where he slept between them , whilst her brother wandered the caverns by himself. Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave's mouth when the day was bright, he would stand there for hours , looking out over the forest , wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same. "He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. " he will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie. " ***He wants to go home. He will not even try and fight his fate. To me , this clearly links his fate with home.That's not how I read it at all.If his death is destined in that place and he will not try to fight his fate, why does he seem to be seeking ...something ? Why not just throw himself down one of the chasms...or into the river ? Why not just start out across the snow and let the wights finish him ? Why not just lie there and wait for it ,instead of prowling around ?That's not very realistic."Why doesn't the little boy just go get eaten alive by the zombies? I can't understand it."Right...It seems to me the paragraph implies Jojen wishes he could go home. As you say, he is making no plans for going anywhere. It's not unnatural to long for home as your life is in its dusk whilst you're in a far away place, I'd imagine.But this does not at all imply that his greendream makes him think he will die on the Neck. It just says two things,1. He wants to go home2. He has given up and fallen into despair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I'm not claiming to know where he will die , or by what means. And I threw in an outre example or two ,just to illustrate the idea that if he really was resigned to meeting his death in the caves, he wouldn't be behaving so restlessly . If he was going to die there and couldn't stand the waiting , there are many options available for speeding up the process.... and the two staements he wants to go home and he will not even try and fight his fate ( spoken together as parts of the same idea , without , e.g. ,a but or a yet to separate them )are only compatible if the act of going home will somehow lead to that fate. ( either at home , on the way , or somewhere he will go after first going home ).And I don't say he's making no plans for going anywhere ... I think his behavior suggests the opposite. I think his continued explorations suggest looking for a path to take him somewhere else , and his gazing out of the mouth of the cave ,trembling, although he's wrapped in furs, suggests that's the one open route he knows of , but the consequences of trying it are too terrifying.( I'm somewhat amused that the idea of Jojen Paste should be considered more "realistic" than suicide by throwing oneself to zombies. ;) They're both pretty fantastical , if you ask me .)However ,I see no point in this circular argument. No one has yet put forth a proof of Jojen Paste that I can accept , without further input from George. We only have Bran's POV to illuminate us and Jojen would not necessarily have explained himself to Bran. Bran is where he needs to be .. what Jojen needs to do next is Jojen's concern , and he may not want to burden or distract Bran with it. He may have explained more to Meera ( it seems he probably has ), but we don't know yet.I expect we'll either get a POV from one of the Reeds , or one of them will explain the situation more fully to Bran , perhaps in the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chequered Raven Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 *** She would often sit with Bran beside their little fire , talking of everything and nothing, petting Summer where he slept between them , whilst her brother wandered the caverns by himself. Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave's mouth when the day was bright, he would stand there for hours , looking out over the forest , wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same. "He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. " he will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie. " ***He wants to go home. He will not even try and fight his fate. To me , this clearly links his fate with home.Jojen is restless , wandering the caverns even by himself , though that's dangerous .What is he looking for ? ..Possibly a way out ? He stands for hours looking out over the forest during the day ( when the wights are inactive ), shivering ...But he's wrapped in furs , so he's not shivering from cold.If his death is destined in that place and he will not try to fight his fate, why does he seem to be seeking ...something ? Why not just throw himself down one of the chasms...or into the river ? Why not just start out across the snow and let the wights finish him ? Why not just lie there and wait for it ,instead of prowling around ? ...For that matter , he and Meera both have knives...It seems to me he feels his fate calling to him , but it's elsewhere. He wants to go home.. I think he would set out across the snow , but he knows he wouldn't get far, so he's wandering the caverns looking for some other route. If he's not fighting his fate ( and Meera ought to know if anyone does) , then his actions are part of what he thinks will fulfill it.He believes his part in the great adventure has ended . He sees no other purpose but to go to meet his fate. He wants to go home.I don't see that as the only possible implication.. it's one of many possible implications (I guess , since there are people who read it that way ) .. but I happen to think it's one of the less likely ones. Your understanding ( and you're welcome to it ) is not mine. In the absence of direct proof ,we'll just have to wait to find out Jojen's precise meaning.I assume Jojen does have a future .. How lengthy a future , I don't know .. but nothing anyone has said on this thread or others , convinces me his life is over ,due to his blood being used in the preparation of weirwood paste....The arguments simply don't hold up , to me. :agree: very good post, nothing more to say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winteriscome Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 He's just depressed because he knows he will die soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal_Rhaego Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Dead. Deadsies. Deadwood. Paste.Jojen was the sacrificial lizard-lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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