Tower of Joy

[SerNotAppearingInThisFilm]

I think GRRM referred to there being something like a Luke Skywalker situation involved here, which lends some credence to the seperated twins theory. I don't personally believe Jon has a twin, but it's possible.

As for the TOJ event, although the crannogmen are known for their guerilla warfare prowess, I think Howland probably saved Ned with his words as opposed to a poisoned dart or something of that nature. Perhaps his greensight had given him access to some knowledge that helped him persuade Dayne to parley. "Ned is the only one who can save Rhaegar's heir" or something to that effect would probably have given him pause. That said, Ned seemed to remember pretty clearly building the cairns, so I think Dayne probably did die.

Almost as intriguing as what happened at the TOJ is, what happened at Starfall? Given that the current Lord Dayne is nicknamed Ned, I think we can safely assume that Ned Stark is held in some esteem there. We're pretty sure that at least one cover story and false identity were created at this time, it's certainly possible that there were more, and that the Daynes were somehow involved.

[Patrek Stark]

Also, it is said that Ned tore down the ToJ to make Cairns for those who died, but on the map in ADWD (I checked the PDF version online on Randomhouse)

What is the full link for this site?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Can anyone tell me why ToJ appears to be a still intact structure on the map if Ned destroyed it to make cairns?

It's probably just an error. They happen.

[Lord of the Hillbillies]

Can anyone tell me why ToJ appears to be a still intact structure on the map if Ned destroyed it to make cairns?

It takes a long time to update maps, especially when they are painstakingly hand drawn and colored on treated deerskins or whatever they are using in Westeros. Even now with paper and advanced printing capability, it was years after the fall of the old Soviet Union and many schools had maps that still featured a place called the USSR.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

The maps are for the convenience of the reader. It's handier to tell us where the ToJ was than to leave it out for the sake of the map being correct.

[Starks Among Us]

I have the theory that Benjen joined the Night's Watch out of shame. Benjen was close to Lyanna. Ned was older, 4 or 5 years older than Lyanna, and was busy becoming Robert's best friend in the Vale. Brandon was older still and busy chasing tail across the north. The two younger Starks were therefore closer to one another. We get a vision of this in the play fight that Bran sees through the weirwoodnet.

At Harrenhal, Benjen offered to help Howland get setup to redeem his honor. After Howland turned down the help, Benjen helped Lyanna dress up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. When Rhaegar, and possibly Dayne and Whent, tracked her down, Benjen was there assisting her.

Later, when Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, Benjen was convinced to help them or at least let them go.

After the war, the deaths of two siblings, his father, and countless others. Benjen felt responsible. Once Ned had his heir, Robb, Benjen joined the Night's Watch. Ned was aware of his actions by now and with his own strong sense of honor, let him go, instead of having Benjen get married and help refuel the Stark bloodline.

Also, in this theory, Benjen knows about Jon's true parentage. Either he figured it out on his own, maybe hearing Lyanna or Rhaegar talking about the need for a 3rd dragon, because he knows Ned's honorable nature, or Ned told him.

I like this theory and it also absolves Benjen in having to take any responsability for knowing or being punishable for knowing what could have or did take place.

[Starks Among Us]

What is the full link for this site?

I will have to hunt it down (I did not favorite it) but it was a link I found on this site....I believe one of the forums was dedicated to maps and I used one of those links which took me to a website that had all the maps from each of the books (I guess) in PDF format, I checked the one that was in the ADWD, it shows Summerhall as being a ruin but ToJ as still intact....I have to go make dinner and such but will try to find the link in the near future. Unless of course someone else knows exactly what I'm talking about and would like to direct us or post it somewhere ....

[-Ghost-]

Can anyone tell me why ToJ appears to be a still intact structure on the map if Ned destroyed it to make cairns?

Now that you mention it, Im kinda curious as well. In the Lands of Ice and Fire map book it isnt drawn as a destroyed castle in any of the maps. I dont remember exactly but I though in the book it said that he tore the tower down, that could have been something I read here though, and in the FAQ it says "Pulling the tower down so that the stones could be used for cairns for the fallen" like you have said.

The wiki is different though, it says, "Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make cairns for the dead." Maybe thats your answer and he didnt pull the entire tower down.

[Starks Among Us]

Now that you mention it, Im kinda curious as well. In the Lands of Ice and Fire map book it isnt drawn as a destroyed castle in any of the maps. I dont remember exactly but I though in the book it said that he tore the tower down, that could have been something I read here though, and in the FAQ it says "Pulling the tower down so that the stones could be used for cairns for the fallen" like you have said.

The wiki is different though, it says, "Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make cairns for the dead." Maybe thats your answer and he didnt pull the entire tower down.

Ok, glad you have seen it too. Thought maybe I was losing it. That would be curious though if he only pulled some of the stones down, I mean, that would be a fun game of life or death Jenga, pull the wrong stone out and get smooshed beneath it. It would be interesting to know if anyone has gone there or seen it since. And I wonder what happened to the servants that were there...they must have gone somewher if there were some and I can't imagine so many people keeping there mouths shut. I also wonder at Lyanna dying and there not being a Maester there...I mean if she was the kings consort or wife or whore or whatever you think that would be enough for him to have a Maester by her side, if there was a baby involved, you would think the need to have a Maester there would be even more important.

[-Ghost-]

In a Ned chapter in GoT it does say "when they found him he was still holding Lyanna's hand", or something like that, so there was at least 1 other person besides Howland, unless it was a mistake. My thoughts are that Wylla was there as a wet nurse and there could have been a maester from Starfall, since Arthur Dayne was there, and they returned to Starfall when Ned brought Dawn back. I doubt there were many more people than those since the ToJ wasnt a big place.

[Maester Rigney]

Now that you mention it, Im kinda curious as well. In the Lands of Ice and Fire map book it isnt drawn as a destroyed castle in any of the maps. I dont remember exactly but I though in the book it said that he tore the tower down, that could have been something I read here though, and in the FAQ it says "Pulling the tower down so that the stones could be used for cairns for the fallen" like you have said.

The wiki is different though, it says, "Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make cairns for the dead." Maybe thats your answer and he didnt pull the entire tower down.

I believe it says that Ned pulled stones from the Tower to make cairns. It does not say, to my knowledge, that he razed the tower to make cairns. So it's likely that the tower is just missing parts at this point.

[Pompeius Magnus]

I don't know if we have an actual description of the tower to back up/refute this, but it's very possible it had surrounding walls/outbuildings/whatever that would have been infinitely easier to tear down to build cairns than an actual tower. Thus the tower could still stand, but part of what was the Tower of Joy -- as a location that is more than just a tower -- was torn down.

That said, there is something very poetic about the tower being torn down to make the cairns, as impractical and potentially contradiction-causing as it may be. Really, beyond the basic fact of the fight with the Kingsguard and Lyanna's presence there, we don't know anything about what actually happened there.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

I believe it says that Ned pulled stones from the Tower to make cairns. It does not say, to my knowledge, that he razed the tower to make cairns. So it's likely that the tower is just missing parts at this point.

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge" (AGOT, 427).

[Starks Among Us]

I don't know if we have an actual description of the tower to back up/refute this, but it's very possible it had surrounding walls/outbuildings/whatever that would have been infinitely easier to tear down to build cairns than an actual tower. Thus the tower could still stand, but part of what was the Tower of Joy -- as a location that is more than just a tower -- was torn down.

That said, there is something very poetic about the tower being torn down to make the cairns, as impractical and potentially contradiction-causing as it may be. Really, beyond the basic fact of the fight with the Kingsguard and Lyanna's presence there, we don't know anything about what actually happened there.

I realize that most keeps/castles have outbuildings, several towers, walls etc, but from the way I interpretted the quote that he pulled down the tower to make the cairns, I thought it was GRRM's way of saying that Ned destroyed it (the entire ToJ area) ...in a way to erase any memory of what happened there and to ease his grief/guilt over what happened there. That being said, I still find it odd that two men destroyed an entire tower and burried eight people, managed to secure his sisters bones etc all while having squaling child and (I'm assuming) the child's caretaker/nurse/wetnurse with them....then proceeded to travel to Dorne (I think?) to return the sword to Ashara, then go all the way back to KL then all the way to WF...there must have been more people....I wish we had more information.

[Greymoon]

Can anyone tell me why ToJ appears to be a still intact structure on the map if Ned destroyed it to make cairns?

I've always assumed the map was made that way before the dream came up. Doesn't seem likely as the dream comes up in the first book already but...either way, I thought it was a faulty map. Didn't read much into it. I don't think GRRM re-checks the map before a new printing. So...if it was made with a mistake, it would be re-printed with that same mistake times and times again.

Else, we are assuming it’s a ruin, when really, it's not. Could be, it was just one wall of the tower that gave the stones for the cairns. Winterfell was quite a bit destroyed, and it’s still not a ruin on the map. See what I'm saying?

Either way... I really don't want Lyanna to be alive and turn out to be septa Lemore. Sure, Lemore is about the right age... a bit too old if you ask me, and she's had a child and she's 'handsome'. How many other women aged between 30 and 40 are handsome, bear the marks of childbirth and have something to hide? Lemore, to me, is just a random character...could be she's westerosi women of some minor house and fled during the rebellion, but I don't expect her to have a major role to play...She didn't come to westeros with Jon Connington, did she?

Twins....na. We already have Jaime and Cersei, that's enough of a pair of twins, I think.

As for the dreams... I think its possible Ned is remembering different events and mixed them up, say, if he didn't meet Lyanna and the KG at the same time/place. Though, that's already a bit of a stretch.

Most likely though, Lyanna couldn't have called out for him if she was dying in her bed of blood. She'd have to see him first for that to happen, and the fight probably occurred outside of the tower. I just don't see her getting up from bed, looking through a window and call out for her brother, when she's minutes away from dying.

It’s possible also, that Lyanna didn't die right away and Ned actually stayed with her for a few days.

[Greymoon]

I think GRRM referred to there being something like a Luke Skywalker situation involved here, which lends some credence to the seperated twins theory. I don't personally believe Jon has a twin, but it's possible.

As for the TOJ event, although the crannogmen are known for their guerilla warfare prowess, I think Howland probably saved Ned with his words as opposed to a poisoned dart or something of that nature. Perhaps his greensight had given him access to some knowledge that helped him persuade Dayne to parley. "Ned is the only one who can save Rhaegar's heir" or something to that effect would probably have given him pause. That said, Ned seemed to remember pretty clearly building the cairns, so I think Dayne probably did die.

Almost as intriguing as what happened at the TOJ is, what happened at Starfall? Given that the current Lord Dayne is nicknamed Ned, I think we can safely assume that Ned Stark is held in some esteem there. We're pretty sure that at least one cover story and false identity were created at this time, it's certainly possible that there were more, and that the Daynes were somehow involved.

I thought the Luke Skywalker situation went along the line of "I'm your father" and not "I'm your twin"?

Okay...So...I'm not at all knowledgeable in all things Star Wars...but...does Luke Skywalker have a twin? Oh...is it the Princess? I've always fallen asleep trying to watch these movies...anyway...if its the Princess...its also an 'incest' situation no? or am I confusing the whole story line here?

And where...where did GRRM say this? So...those of you who believe Jon has a twin...who would it be? FAegon? Would the younger brother be pretending to be his dead older brother? Because if it isn't FAegon (and we do have reasons to wonder about his true age, don't we?) then we have yet another contender running around somewhere. And if it is FAegon...why pretend? unless FAegon and Jon are bastards? does it mean also...if FAegon is Aegon second-born, that Lemore is Ashara? or Wylla? (I hope not. The world is small, but come on! we can't have all kinds of old characters showing up once again, that would be too much of a coincidence and taste more than a bit sour)

[Starks Among Us]

I didn't realize that there are people who thought Lyanna is Septa Lemore....I thought people thought Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne...????

As far as the twins theory, I think there are people who feel that Jon and Meera could potentially be twins....

As far as Ned's dream, I don't think it's completely legit, I'm thinking those things happened but either not in the literal sense that they are presented or that some of the memories are altered...I don't think we can take it at face value as exactly the way it's presented, more so I think it's along the lines of symbolism...

As far as ToJ being a ruin on the map and WF not being a ruin...WF didn't turn into a "ruin" until the reader is pretty far in the series, wheras with ToJ (and Summerhall) they are supposed to be a "ruin" prior to the story starting (for the reader)....

[The guy from the Vale]

GRRM never said so, Alfie Allen (the GoT actor for Theon Greyjoy) did. But we don't know what Alfie knows about Star Wars, and I also think people are overthinking what he?s saying there - the parallel is that both Jon and Luke are the sons of the Dark Prince who supported the evil emperor/mad king. Remember that the series hasn't gone into the details of Robert's Rebellion yet, at least way less so than the books.

[-Ghost-]

I thought the Luke Skywalker situation went along the line of "I'm your father" and not "I'm your twin"?

Okay...So...I'm not at all knowledgeable in all things Star Wars...but...does Luke Skywalker have a twin? Oh...is it the Princess? I've always fallen asleep trying to watch these movies...anyway...if its the Princess...its also an 'incest' situation no? or am I confusing the whole story line here?

And where...where did GRRM say this? So...those of you who believe Jon has a twin...who would it be? FAegon? Would the younger brother be pretending to be his dead older brother? Because if it isn't FAegon (and we do have reasons to wonder about his true age, don't we?) then we have yet another contender running around somewhere. And if it is FAegon...why pretend? unless FAegon and Jon are bastards? does it mean also...if FAegon is Aegon second-born, that Lemore is Ashara? or Wylla? (I hope not. The world is small, but come on! we can't have all kinds of old characters showing up once again, that would be too much of a coincidence and taste more than a bit sour)

Alfie Allen said something about the Luke Skywalker thing in an interview. Its been posted here before. I dont think its twins, I think its more along the lines of Luke being raised by someone who was thought to be his father then finding out was actually his uncle and his father was someone else. I dont remember much about Star Wars, was never really into it, but Im pretty sure thats what others have said.

Where did you hear Septa Lemore was really Lyanna? Ive only heard she could be Ashara Dayne. Lyanna is dead and in the WF crypts, so I dont think you have to worry about that.

[Starks Among Us]

Most likely though, Lyanna couldn't have called out for him if she was dying in her bed of blood. She'd have to see him first for that to happen, and the fight probably occurred outside of the tower. I just don't see her getting up from bed, looking through a window and call out for her brother, when she's minutes away from dying.

It’s possible also, that Lyanna didn't die right away and Ned actually stayed with her for a few days.

I agree with this. If Lyanna was truly dying, chances are she was too weak to scream for Ned...On the other hand, when I first read about Ned's dream and his recollection of events, I pictured Lyanna in the throws of childbirth and screaming his name while she's in the throws of labor. That's the only way I could see her screaming for Ned. And I think the timeline shows that Jon was born a bit before Ned's arrival (though I have differing views than many on that topic thinking that Jon was present a couple/several months prior to Ned's arrival)...anyway....I agree with you. If Lyanna was truly dying from some sort of illness, chances are she was not screaming out, but would have been weakend by the illness...unless she was in the throws of labor (or miscarriage).....but many know my views on that and disagree.