Tower of Joy

[Starks Among Us]

When asked does HR know who Jon's mother is, GRRM replies "The Shadow knows".

Also, it is said that Ned tore down the ToJ to make Cairns for those who died, but on the map in ADWD (I checked the PDF version online on Randomhouse) it gives the key and shows ruins and still standing castles- it reflects Summerhall as a ruin, but ToJ as still standing/intact....

Also, 2 men, one a small crannogman, managed to pull down a tower to make cairns for the dead while possibly caring for a baby?

When asked if Jon's vows to the NW would stick due to his age, GRRM replies that once you say the words you're in, but that being said, someone who is seriously minor (like a 12 year old) would not be allowed to take his vows....why did he make a point of that? Are there a lot of 12 year olds trying to take the black?

He also states that the KG new what was in the ToJ, but that Ned's dreams are fever dreams and should not be interpretted necessarily as literal....so, (wild crackpot theory coming) is there a chance that the KG that were present, as well as Ned's men, did not literally have a fight? Is it possible that Lyanna may have been in a bed of blood but not died in the literal sense? I guess what I'm saying is, if Lyanna did have a baby (or babies depending on your theory) and Ned took it (or they split them up) and then say the KG went with the baby or perhaps Ned even split his men up to go with the baby (babies) as Ned only had honourable men and the KG were all honorouble men...do we have the setting for the best kept secret in Westeros?

And as far as Jon and Edric being nursed by the same woman, GRRM points out that Jon "had long been parted from Wylla's breast when Edric came along" ...also given from the approximate time line given by reading about Roberts Rebellion in FAQ it sounds like from the time of the feast at Harrenhal, until the sacking of kings landing and Ned going to ToJ to get Lyanna it could be a couple- to several - years...GRRM himself states that it takes many months to travel from Dorne to Winterfell....so then perhaps Lyanna died giving birth to a second child? That timespan would have been enough for her to have 2 children ...

And is it possible the Benjen went to ToJ with Ned? He joined the NW shortly after Ned returned to WF...I find it difficult to believe that in a house that has almost completely died out (the only Starks are Ned, his children and Benjen) that Benjen would take vows forsaking his claim on WF and fathering children....wouldn't they have wanted to expand their family more? With Brandon dead and Lyanna dead (or gone) that means the only children they could depend on would be the children of Cateylns body...what if Rob would have died in infancy, and she had stillbirths after that....I think Benjen took the black to either atone for some sin he thought he committed, or so he would be untouchable by Royal's if something came under speculation about his part in ToJ or L+R = J theory...

thoughts?

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

If Ned's dreams can't be taken literal than holy shit anything could happen

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think that when GRRM says that it's not all literal, it means that some things (like, possibly, the storm of blue roses or Lyanna calling his full name) aren't meant to be taken literally. I'm not a fan, at all, of reading too much into it beyond that, because if you start disregarding the dream because "it's not entirely literal," where does it stop? Do we discount the whole thing? The parts that clash with our theories? Where do you draw the line? I think the "meat" of the dream — the dialogue, the people, the fight, etc. — is "real," based on a real memory, while the storm of roses is largely symbolic. I do not doubt that Ned's other five men and the three Kingsguard died in a fight and that Lyanna died in childbirth. If you start questioning that — at the very least, the former — then where does it stop? At some point, you have to draw a line and say, "This happened."

And no, Benjen was not at the Tower of Joy. He was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. Doesn't discount him joining the Watch out of atonement, but he was not in Dorne with Ned.

The war itself lasted "about" a year. The Harrenhal tournament took place in 281 and the war concluded in 283.

[The Dragon has three heads]

...just to put my sudden fear to rest, septa Lemore can't be Lyanna correct? Surely she has to be dead. Apple has the right of it...some lines have to be drawn or it all falls apart.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

...just to put my sudden fear to rest, septa Lemore can't be Lyanna correct? Surely she has to be dead. Apple has the right of it...some lines hag to be drawn it t all falls apart.

GRRM has referred to Lyanna (and Rhaegar) as a dead character. They're dead.

[The Dragon has three heads]

I hope so.

Or or the speculation and neds inner turmoil is kinda for nothing.

[Fire Eater]

Benjen couldn;t have gone with Ned to the ToJ, he was still a boy at the time, and Ned doesn't mention him as one of the companions who accompanied him.

Also, Jon is 14 at the beginning of the series, not 12. By the time Ned Dayne states his age, Jon is around 16 at the time, so Ned is 3-4 years younger than Jon. The KG at the ToJ are dead.

[kephv]

I don't think there's any way to doubt that there was an actual fight (something happened to those missing lords). However, the thought that maybe they all didn't die might hold some weight. As for the theory that she had a second child (as pointed out, timeline doesn't exactly work for this unless they were twins) doesn't really hold up in light of what happens with Jon -- meaning Ned isn't just going to protect one child and ditch the other. He would've kept them both close.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

I don't know if it's already been discussed, but (if R+L=J is true) my theory is that just before the arrival of Ned and his men, Jon was taken to Starfall by Wylla, as he was his child; so, bringing back Dawn is just an excuse to go there and fulfill the promise he made to Lyanna (take care of the child)

[Adam Carmack]

I would be so disappointed if they were twins. Jon you have a sister, her name is Ygritte Skywalker

[Hardstone]

He would've kept them both close.

I don't know. Luwin suggested keeping Bran and Rickon separate after the Sack of Winterfell. This is sound advice so maybe Ned would have done the same thing.

[The Mountain That Flies]

When asked does HR know who Jon's mother is, GRRM replies "The Shadow knows".

Since in the dream Ned's companions were only remembered as shadows, this statement makes sense. Though it has long fascinated me how Ned and Howland would have transported all the dead (9 in total).

[Ghost of Groat]

I think regarding the Benjin sins that led him to the wall that it was simply a notion that struck Benjin early in life. Winterfel had frequent contact with the NW and to a boy they must seem like bigger than life heroes. The boy Benjin was enamored with the idea of it. He was the youngest son with no chance at being warden of the north so the idea grew on him. This notion would only be strengthened by his father telling him he is a fool for wanting to join the NW. Youth rebelling and all that. We don't need a big ominous reason for Benjin to be a ranger.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think regarding the Benjin sins that led him to the wall that it was simply a notion that struck Benjin early in life. Winterfel had frequent contact with the NW and to a boy they must seem like bigger than life heroes. The boy Benjin was enamored with the idea of it. He was the youngest son with no chance at being warden of the north so the idea grew on him. This notion would only be strengthened by his father telling him he is a fool for wanting to join the NW. Youth rebelling and all that. We don't need a big ominous reason for Benjin to be a ranger.

The point is, though, that Benjen joined the Night's Watch after Rickard's and Brandon's death, and before Bran was born. At that time, Benjen was third in line to Winterfell, and there needed only something to happen to Ned and Robb for Benjen to become Lord Stark. Still, he went to the Wall instead of helping his brother. No, it's not conclusive, but it's still quite unusual otherwise.

[Starks Among Us]

I guess after I read that GRRM said that the dream was a dream, a fever dream at that, and should not be taken literal, I started looking at it for symbolic meanings.....has anyone been to ToJ or Summerhall since Rhaegar? How funny would it be if Ned's guys, the 3 KG, and Lyanna were just kinda sittin there chillin...(sorry) ahem....anyway...I guess perhaps I thought maybe they are "dead" in the sense that they could no longer live their lives the way they were, they had to assume identities, become someone else and forget who they were, in essence, dead. I mean, if you had to forget who you were, everything you ever knew, change your identity, leave everything you knew, never have contact with anybody you ever knew again...you would probably consider yourself dead to the world. And if you were the person who had to make those people go into hiding, you would probably feel guilt the rest of your life and it would probably haunt you that while you live your life, they all have to suffer for the expense of the better good.

As far as Ned remembering his friends as shadows (are you talking about the wraiths he sees?)....GRRM said "The Shadow" not the wraiths or the shadows, but speaks of it like it's an acutal person place or thing (hence the capatalizing of Shadow)...which immediatly made me think of Quaithe for some reason. Then I started re reading some parts of the text and he refers to (can't remember where) the shadow of the ToJ and the shadow of summerhall....

GRRM also pointed out that it's many months from Dorne to Winterfell....and that Jon and Dany are 9 months appart, Jon is 9 months older than Dany, and Storms End was being sieged prior to Ned's venture to ToJ....

[Vuron]

....GRRM said "The Shadow" not the wraiths or the shadows, but speaks of it like it's an acutal person place or thing (hence the capatalizing of Shadow)...which immediatly made me think of Quaithe for some reason. Then I started re reading some parts of the text and he refers to (can't remember where) the shadow of the ToJ and the shadow of summerhall....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

"The introduction from The Shadow radio program, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!", spoken by actor Frank Readick Jr., has earned a place in the American idiom. These words were accompanied by an ominous laugh and a musical theme"

I think you're just reading too much into it. GRRM has a habit of messing with people's minds.

[Starks Among Us]

welll...i know there has been speculation that ashara dayne is quaithe, and quaithe is thought of as the shadow...so that would fit nicely, lol.

[corbon]

When asked does HR know who Jon's mother is, GRRM replies "The Shadow knows".

Also, it is said that Ned tore down the ToJ to make Cairns for those who died, but on the map in ADWD (I checked the PDF version online on Randomhouse) it gives the key and shows ruins and still standing castles- it reflects Summerhall as a ruin, but ToJ as still standing/intact....

Also, 2 men, one a small crannogman, managed to pull down a tower to make cairns for the dead while possibly caring for a baby?

They had 10+ horses. And ropes. And brains.

And possibly there were a few servants already at ToJ - some of the 'they' who found Ned and Lyanna. Probably Wylla, unknown who else.

And as far as Jon and Edric being nursed by the same woman, GRRM points out that Jon "had long been parted from Wylla's breast when Edric came along"

Edric Dayne is around Sansa'a age.

[Starks Among Us]

Can anyone tell me why ToJ appears to be a still intact structure on the map if Ned destroyed it to make cairns?

[intheswamp]

I have the theory that Benjen joined the Night's Watch out of shame. Benjen was close to Lyanna. Ned was older, 4 or 5 years older than Lyanna, and was busy becoming Robert's best friend in the Vale. Brandon was older still and busy chasing tail across the north. The two younger Starks were therefore closer to one another. We get a vision of this in the play fight that Bran sees through the weirwoodnet.

At Harrenhal, Benjen offered to help Howland get setup to redeem his honor. After Howland turned down the help, Benjen helped Lyanna dress up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. When Rhaegar, and possibly Dayne and Whent, tracked her down, Benjen was there assisting her.

Later, when Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, Benjen was convinced to help them or at least let them go.

After the war, the deaths of two siblings, his father, and countless others. Benjen felt responsible. Once Ned had his heir, Robb, Benjen joined the Night's Watch. Ned was aware of his actions by now and with his own strong sense of honor, let him go, instead of having Benjen get married and help refuel the Stark bloodline.

Also, in this theory, Benjen knows about Jon's true parentage. Either he figured it out on his own, maybe hearing Lyanna or Rhaegar talking about the need for a 3rd dragon, because he knows Ned's honorable nature, or Ned told him.