An Examination of Revenge and Vengeance in A Song of Ice and Fire

[Fetch me a block]

It's said by some that's the only reason she did not get vengeance but I don't think it's certain. I also think that Uncat will also fail and will not kill Jamie due to his plot armor.

True, he has so much plot armour, like every Lannister

[ab aeterno]

Yes, I agree. I think this thread is not-so-subtley trying to paint vengeance as a bad thing, when I don't think this is really a fair analysis in ASOIAF where revenge is more often than not the closest thing to justice.

I wouldn't say that this thread was necessarily started with this goal in mind, rather, we considered that there are many cases where vengeance is seen negatively in real life and within the context of the series, and in fact, the tragedy of the pursuit of vengeance is one of the most common themes in literature. Vengeance often (seemingly) damages those who pursue it more than it does the target of that vengeance. We wondered how people might respond to he different actors pursuing vengeance and their differing goals, and whether we would want our favorite characters to pursue vengeance, given the consequences, actual or potential, to those characters.

Would you not rather have slightly disproportionate or unfair justice than no justice at all?

It is not a question of whether vengeance constitutes justice, rough or otherwise, but whether this "justice," or retribution outweighs the potential damage the character pursuing that vengeance.

You all speak as if revenge/vengeance whatever you want to call it is avoidable and the need for it is easy to get over. It isn't. You say revenge leads to nothing but pain. Well so does holding in anger. At least with revenge people feel like they can defend themselves. I wouldn't say all people who pursue vengeance die. So what if Arya feels a bit empty? Surely she prefers it to being filled with pain and hatred?

You seem to be suggesting that a character dying is the only terrible fate that can await them. I'm not sure I am able to agree with this. If you look at Sandor Clegane, I might suggest that for his character, for the longest time, death might have been a mercy.

As for getting over it, perhaps there is something to be learned there, in forgiveness. Aemon Targaryen had more reason to wish vengeance than almost any other character, but he seems to bear no malice towards those responsible, and, I would argue, is much better off for it.

Tyrion has definitly felt better since his revenge.

Has he now? He's has become entirely embittered, is in exile around the world, and he has embraced his worst instincts almost fully. I'm not sure he is feeling better, personally. (Assuming you are referring to Tywin.)

And what's to say the just do well either? Dondarrion died, it may have taken him a while to die but he did, and he never managed to kill Gregor like he was meant to.

Again, this is nothing to do with justice, but about the consequences of the pursuit of vengeance, so I'm not entirely sure that Dondarrion is the best example here. Having said that, in the end, Dondarrion chose his own death peacefully. He certainly wasn't consumed by vengeance, I would argue, as his trial with the Hound shows.

True, he has so much plot armour, like every Lannister

Along with most of the Stark children and Danaerys and the other characters who are important to the narrative.

[Lykos]

<snip>Tyrion has definitly felt better since his revenge.<snip>

:lmao: :rofl: :lmao: Best joke all day, can I quote you at the Tyrion reread? I want the others to have a laugh as well.

[Fetch me a block]

:lmao: :rofl: :lmao: Best joke all day, can I quote you at the Tyrion reread? I want the others to have a laugh as well.

Well it is the impression I got. He doesn't actually sound much more miserable

[Lyanna Stark]

Well it is the impression I got. He doesn't actually sound much more miserable

Wait, are you talking about Tyrion in ADWD? Who is a miserable, self destructive wreck, embracing all his monstrous sides?

Or does your copy of ADWD contain different chapters than mine?

[Fetch me a block]

I wouldn't say that this thread was necessarily started with this goal in mind, rather, we considered that there are many cases where vengeance is seen negatively in real life and within the context of the series, and in fact, the tragedy of the pursuit of vengeance is one of the most common themes in literature. Vengeance often (seemingly) damages those who pursue it more than it does the target of that vengeance. We wondered how people might respond to he different actors pursuing vengeance and their differing goals, and whether we would want our favorite characters to pursue vengeance, given the consequences, actual or potential, to those characters.

It is not a question of whether vengeance constitutes justice, rough or otherwise, but whether this "justice," or retribution outweighs the potential damage the character pursuing that vengeance.

You seem to be suggesting that a character dying is the only terrible fate that can await them. I'm not sure I am able to agree with this. If you look at Sandor Clegane, I might suggest that for his character, for the longest time, death might have been a mercy.

As for getting over it, perhaps there is something to be learned there, in forgiveness. Aemon Targaryen had more reason to wish vengeance than almost any other character, but he seems to bear no malice towards those responsible, and, I would argue, is much better off for it.

Has he now? He's has become entirely embittered, is in exile around the world, and he has embraced his worst instincts almost fully. I'm not sure he is feeling better, personally. (Assuming you are referring to Tywin.)

Again, this is nothing to do with justice, but about the consequences of the pursuit of vengeance, so I'm not entirely sure that Dondarrion is the best example here. Having said that, in the end, Dondarrion chose his own death peacefully. He certainly wasn't consumed by vengeance, I would argue, as his trial with the Hound shows.

Along with most of the Stark children and Danaerys and the other characters who are important to the narrative.

You're comment about revenge causing personal harm in some cases is true, but if revenge is about making someone as feel as bad as you do, surely if you put yourself in more danger, it doesn't really matter? It is easy for us as readers to note that revenge is destroying someone, but I would argue that for the revenger, a lot of the time they don't really care if it is destroying them, as long as they get their vengeance. True, Robert for example, may have been bored after Rhaegar's death, but I'd take bored over hateful.

[Fetch me a block]

Wait, are you talking about Tyrion in ADWD? Who is a miserable, self destructive wreck, embracing all his monstrous sides?

Or does your copy of ADWD contain different chapters than mine?

I'd argue he's not much worse off than in Westeros, where he was disrespected, undervalued and lied to by his family constantly.

[Cas Stark]

I'd argue he's not much worse off than in Westeros, where he was disrespected, undervalued and lied to by his family constantly.

His mental state is much worse. He is bitter, he drinks too much, he has externalized his rage and now he abuses the weak, whereas before he attempted to protect them, and he continually fantasizes about killing his sister.

I'm not even sure murdering his father and Shae can be fairly called revenge, since the punishment seems disproportionate to the crime.

Lady Stoneheart hanging Freys in exacting revenge. Arya checking people off her kill list is exactly revenge.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'd argue he's not much worse off than in Westeros, where he was disrespected, undervalued and lied to by his family constantly.

His mental state in ADWD, up until the latter part at least, is awful. It's not about being "disrespected" and "undervalued". Tyrion is in psychological agony throughout most of ADWD. He even considers suicide, which is pretty dire.

[Fetch me a block]

Wait, are you talking about Tyrion in ADWD? Who is a miserable, self destructive wreck, embracing all his monstrous sides?

Or does your copy of ADWD contain different chapters than mine?

Also, what are these 'monstrous sides' you speak of? I'm not calling you wrong, but I want some specific examples

[Lykos]

Fetch me a block,

<snip>. The experimenters asked the first––who'd been allowed to punish––to predict how they'd feel if they hadn't been allowed to, and he asked the second, non-punishing, group how they believed they'd have felt if they had. The punishers said they would’ve felt worse if they hadn’t had revenge, and the non-punishers told they’d have felt better if they’d had revenge… and both groups were wrong!

Because an objective examination of both groups found out that the non-punishers were the happier and most satisfied lot in the end, and the punishers did in fact feel worse, thus demonstrating that people are awful at predicting the emotional outcome of revenge. <snip>

[ab aeterno]

You're comment about revenge causing personal harm in some cases is true, but if revenge is about making someone as feel as bad as you do, surely if you put yourself in more danger, it doesn't really matter? It is easy for us as readers to note that revenge is destroying someone, but I would argue that for the revenger, a lot of the time they don't really care if it is destroying them, as long as they get their vengeance.

Perhaps, and this is the question we are asking. Does vengeance benefit those pursuing it? If the goal is to cause pain, they might achieve that, but what do they really achieve if they end up causing themselves as much pain as they cause to their enemy?

True, Robert for example, may have been bored after Rhaegar's death, but I'd take bored over hateful.

"In my dreams, I kill him every night. A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

This, in addition to how he talks about Dany and Viserys as "dragonspawn," suggests to me that Robert was not only bored but also still very hateful even after killing Rhaegar and deposing his family.

[Fetch me a block]

His mental state is much worse. He is bitter, he drinks too much, he has externalized his rage and now he abuses the weak, whereas before he attempted to protect them, and he continually fantasizes about killing his sister.

I'm not even sure murdering his father and Shae can be fairly called revenge, since the punishment seems disproportionate to the crime.

Lady Stoneheart hanging Freys in exacting revenge. Arya checking people off her kill list is exactly revenge.

His mental state in ADWD, up until the latter part at least, is awful. It's not about being "disrespected" and "undervalued". Tyrion is in psychological agony throughout most of ADWD. He even considers suicide, which is pretty dire.

Does his sister not fantasize about killing him, too? Tyrion has tried his entire life to be a better person than the rest of his cruel, backstabbing, incestuous family, but that did not serve him any better. All he's done is gone to a different part of the world. In a way, revenge has liberated him, since he now plans to return to Westeros.

You say revenge destroys purpose, but now Tyrion has found a purpose again

[Hallyington]

Absolutely great read, Great work.

[Lyanna Stark]

Also, what are these 'monstrous sides' you speak of? I'm not calling you wrong, but I want some specific examples

Sure, there are loads. Tyrion refers to himself as a monster several times throughout ADWD. He also acts cruelly and scares and abuses people who have no chance off fighting back (the slave prostitutes). For threads dealing with this, the Tyrion re-read threads are excellent. The first post contains links to the previous, so you can go back and follow the careful chapter by chapter analysis for ADWD.

The "monster" theme comes up a lot. For a more chatty discussion, the "Monster inside me" is quite interesting. The "monster" also refers to that Tyrion refers to himself as a monster in ADWD. If you have a Kindle, you can search for the word "monster" in ADWD and get all the hits for it.

[Fetch me a block]

Perhaps, and this is the question we are asking. Does vengeance benefit those pursuing it? If the goal is to cause pain, they might achieve that, but what do they really achieve if they end up causing themselves as much pain as they cause to their enemy?

"In my dreams, I kill him every night. A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

This, in addition to how he talks about Dany and Viserys as "dragonspawn," suggests to me that Robert was not only bored but also still very hateful even after killing Rhaegar and deposing his family.

So... you think with revenge people are tempted to take it too far? Perhaps, but Robert wanted to kill every Targaryen before he killed Rhaegar as well.

Since we are all quoting classical literature etc. I think I should do a bit of referencing too.

SPOILERS FROM OTHELLO

In Othello, where Iago ultimately succeeds in bringing about Othello's downfall, he expresses no regret and is clearly calm now that he has destroyed Othello, despite being arrested.

EDIT: Spelling

[Cas Stark]

Does his sister not fantasize about killing him, too? Tyrion has tried his entire life to be a better person than the rest of his cruel, backstabbing, incestuous family, but that did not serve him any better. All he's done is gone to a different part of the world. In a way, revenge has liberated him, since he now plans to return to Westeros.

You say revenge destroys purpose, but now Tyrion has found a purpose again

Yes, but his sister is a bat shit crazy sociopath who started her killiing career at the age of 10.

No, I can't agree with you here, Tyrion killing his father wasn't revenge. Revenge for what? For giving him access to the Lannister bankroll his entire life? For making him Hand of the King? The punishment for being a cruel, distant father who gives you "sharp lessons" when you do something he considers demeaning to the family is not death. It was a pure emotional reaction, yes, he did put himself down to his sister's level when he killed his father, and that is bad, not good.

I hated him in ADWD. I hated his self pity and his anger and his lack of remorse.

[Fetch me a block]

Sure, there are loads. Tyrion refers to himself as a monster several times throughout ADWD. He also acts cruelly and scares and abuses people who have no chance off fighting back (the slave prostitutes). For threads dealing with this, the Tyrion re-read threads are excellent. The first post contains links to the previous, so you can go back and follow the careful chapter by chapter analysis for ADWD.

The "monster" theme comes up a lot. For a more chatty discussion, the "Monster inside me" is quite interesting. The "monster" also refers to that Tyrion refers to himself as a monster in ADWD. If you have a Kindle, you can search for the word "monster" in ADWD and get all the hits for it.

Yes, this is true, he does refer to himself as a monster and does some bad things. However, I think that because Tyrion has found a purpose again, this previous phase can be seen as a low point. We all have low points, but I would argue it is because, in equal part, of Tyrion's tired state, the change of setting and knowing now that he really has nothing to lose.

[Fetch me a block]

Yes, but his sister is a bat shit crazy sociopath who started her killiing career at the age of 10.

No, I can't agree with you here, Tyrion killing his father wasn't revenge. Revenge for what? For giving him access to the Lannister bankroll his entire life? For making him Hand of the King? The punishment for being a cruel, distant father who gives you "sharp lessons" when you do something he considers demeaning to the family is not death. It was a pure emotional reaction, yes, he did put himself down to his sister's level when he killed his father, and that is bad, not good.

I hated him in ADWD. I hated his self pity and his anger and his lack of remorse.

His father also refused to acknowledge him as his heir, had his guards gang-rape his wife at an early age, and this cruelness and distance is a lot worse than you make it seem.

Arya started her killing career at earlier than 10. I wouldn't call her crazy.

[Lummel]

...Tyrion has tried his entire life to be a better person than the rest of his cruel, backstabbing, incestuous family, but that did not serve him any better. All he's done is gone to a different part of the world. In a way, revenge has liberated him, since he now plans to return to Westeros...

tried to be a better person? Seriously? In Tyrion II AGOT he tells Jon that he fantasises about watching his sister burn to death and genuinely seems surprised when Jon denies having similar thoughts.

Now having killed Tywin, he had to be dissuaded in Tyrion I ADWD from a plot that would lead to the death of his niece and in Tyrion VII imagines having his sister made into a shit shovelling slave and later confesses his desire to rape his own sister. In other words the man is getting angrier, his casual thought in Tyrion VI ADWD is to identify with the Dothraki, a desire for revenge has driven out any ability to savour or enjoy life from him all together.