Ashara Dayne - all we know about her

[niamh]

Someone mentioned this thread was welcome so I ran a search in my ebooks and came up with everything that pertains to Lady Ashara Dayne in the 6 books. It's little and less I fear, as George would say.

A game of thrones

Catelyn

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother' date=' not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.[/quote']

Eddard

[MtnLion]

A couple of points that seem to be repeatedly mistaken from Barristan's quote:

Barristan notes that "a man" dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, the award of the crown was at the end of Harrenhal, so it is logical that she was dishonored before the crown was awarded. He does not identify the man, whether he knows or not who. If he does know, then logically it could only be the royal family, that would be a secret that he must keep. Barristan notes that Ashara was mad with grief over the child she had lost, but only perhaps grief over the man who had dishonored her. After Harrenhal is when Ashara turns to a Stark (we don't know which one) and Barristan would have preferred that Ashara would have considered him to turn to. Ashara did not know Barristan's feelings towards her, but if he had awarded her the crown, as was his plan, then he hoped that she would understand his feelings towards her.

[niamh]

I agree. That quote of Selmy's could be construed any which way and is not entirely helpful (obviously on purpose, and isn't it fun to discuss what it could mean) , except to dispel the notion that Jon is Ashara's son by Eddard.

[DrunkSister]

A couple of points that seem to be repeatedly mistaken from Barristan's quote:

Barristan notes that "a man" dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, the award of the crown was at the end of Harrenhal, so it is logical that she was dishonored before the crown was awarded. He does not identify the man, whether he knows or not who. If he does know, then logically it could only be the royal family, that would be a secret that he must keep. Barristan notes that Ashara was mad with grief over the child she had lost, but only perhaps grief over the man who had dishonored her. After Harrenhal is when Ashara turns to a Stark (we don't know which one) and Barristan would have preferred that Ashara would have considered him to turn to. Ashara did not know Barristan's feelings towards her, but if he had awarded her the crown, as was his plan, then he hoped that she would understand his feelings towards her.

OMG it was Aerys! Aegon is the baby! She is septa Lemore!

/crackpot

Ok, I'm just trying to show it can go a long way. Barristan doesn't know for sure that the daughter is stillborn, he has only heard it.

If Wylla can lie why not Ashara.

[corbon]

While some propose Ashara had a daughter with Brandon it is suggested she did fall in love with Ned by the conversation with Arya,

Suggested only by someone who was not born at the time. So a second (or third, or worse) hand source who makes no sense at all when he states (in a manner of speaking) that Ned and Ashara loved each other but Ned fucked Wylla instead.

Does not compute.

Ned Dayne is just repeating old family stories or servant gossip that may or may not have anything to do with the truth.

but that nothing untowards happened at the tourney (Ned slept with Howland Reed).

Well, he offered him a place in his tent. I've seen some arguments thats because Ned was sleeping in Ashara's tent.

But I happen to agree with your assessment, just point out that it isn;t a known fact that HR shared Ned's tent with Ned.

There is stil a timeline issue as to who was geographically capable of fathering Ashara's daughter, and even when said daughter was born, we only know it is after Lyanna and Ser Arthur died.

Err, what? How do we know that?

IMO Ashara's baby was stillborn well before Lyanna was even abducted. I've never heard of anything that contradicts this.

Not even Barristan's guessing at why she committed suicide. He's a 60+ year old man thinking about events that happened over 20 years ago. "A short time" could easily be a year, or even two in such a context.

[niamh]

Next we'll be told Ser Barristan is an Ent.

Ashara threw herself out the window out of grief for her daughter. Usually this happens reasonably close in time to the time said child is lost. If it happens years afterwards, Barristan wouldn't even think to associate the death with the child, only Ser Arthur's death

[MtnLion]

Next we'll be told Ser Barristan is an Ent.

Ashara threw herself out the window out of grief for her daughter. Usually this happens reasonably close in time to the time said child is lost. If it happens years afterwards, Barristan wouldn't even think to associate the death with the child, only Ser Arthur's death

I find it a little odd that Barristan does not think of Arthur and only Harwin mentions him. It may have seemed a short time to Barristan, who may have heard the news about Ashara months or years after the fact.

[niamh]

Cersei accuses Ned of stealing the child, so that it can't have been born that much beforehand. "soon after" means soon after, even if you're 60. 60's not 600.

But yes, he doesn't mention Arthur, though we know that Eddard brought Dawn back to her, so she was alive to that point. I didn't post that, actually. I'm going to have to run another search with the word Starfall instead of Ashara methinks. I did post it. Never mind, lol

Frankly, both theories (Ned or Brandon) hold equal water. Ashara could have thrown herself out at the thought of the horrific death of Brandon, or equally at the news the Eddard killed her brother and was married.

eta: I'd like to know how Corbon knows Allyria Dayne wasn't born at the time of the year of the false spring. I haven't seen her age noted anywhere

[corbon]

Cersei accuses Ned of stealing the child, so that it can't have been born that much beforehand. "soon after" means soon after, even if you're 60. 60's not 600.

Cersei thinks the child is Jon - the child Ned stole. She doesn't know it was stillborn. She doesn't know much at all really - she was sidelined during the war, certainly not either in Dorne or KL and is almost completely uninformed about what might of really happened. She's just picked up rumours and bits and pieces and jumped to the worst conclusions in her usual fashion.

I would wager that the sum of her knowledge is just that Ned went to Starfall to return Arthur Dayne's sword, and came away from Starfall with Jon Snow. And maybe she's picked up rumours about Ashara Dayne's earlier connections with a Stark and disgrace.

'Soon after' is such a wonderfly imprecise term.

For example, US President Nixon resigned 'soon after' the Watergate scandal. Yet that resignation was nearly a year and a half after the scandal blew wide open and over 2 years since it was first denied by Nixon.

Or looking at Michael Jackson's career, at around the same time frame ago (20 odd years), he married Lisa-Marie Presley (May 94) 'soon after' the sex abuse case (Aug 93), but that was around 9 months time frame difference.

Or, the Berlin Wall was officially considered 'fallen' in Nov 1989. Proper destruction began "soon after' in June 1990.

When you are looking back 20 years or so, "soon after" can mean almost anything.

eta: I'd like to know how Corbon knows Allyria Dayne wasn't born at the time of the year of the false spring. I haven't seen her age noted anywhere

She is betrothed to Beric Dondarrion, who is in his mid twenties (born 276 +/-). She has been betrothed for a long time (6+ years, beginning in 294) when Beric would have been around 18.

The usual reason for a long betrothal is the youth of the participants, particularly the girl. It seems unlikely that they'd not have married after 6 years if she was 20-odd, which is how old she'd need to be just to be born around Harrenhal, let alone 8-12 years older so that she could understand what was happening and the aftermath.

So unless Allyria Dayne is an 'old maid' of late twenties to early thirties who has been betrothed for 6 years or so to a younger man in his mid twenties, she almost certainly wasn't a first hand witness, cognisant of what was happening before her sister suicided.

Now, could you please answer why you think the daughter is (still?)born only after Lyanna and Arthur died? I still don't get that train of thought.

Please note also, that Barristan wasn't present, or anywhere near, around the time (in KL recovering from wounds taken at the Trident and then become Robert's KG) and probably hadn't seen Ashara since she left the court (quite likely 6 months or more before the war even started - she was disgraced at/from Harrenhal a year or more before the war started) and he's only guessing, even to himself, why she might have committed suicide.

Maybe it was for the daughter she lost. Maybe for the brother, maybe for the man she loved (which could well be Brandon, also lost a year before). He doesn't know, he's just pondering the possible reasons. Maybe she didn't even commit suicide. Maybe she did for other reasons he doesn't know about. Maybe for a mix of several of the above.

Barristan seems to be a reliable witness as to being honest and truthful, especially inside his own head. But he doesn't know jack about a lot of things, even stuff he thinks he knows (because he's been told by someone who may hve been misinformed or lying).

[niamh]

Well Ashara was alive to receive Dawn. and I don't take soon after to be years after, unlike you. That's all there is to it.

[corbon]

Well Ashara was alive to receive Dawn. and I don't take soon after to be years after, unlike you. That's all there is to it.

Why must 'soon after' be a matter of days though? Ned's travelled straight from ToJ to Starfall after Lyanna's death.

Surely 20 years later 'soon after' (from a man who was not involved at all) could be weeks or months, even if you for some reason cannot accept a year?

[MtnLion]

@corbon, you and I agree, uh, mostly. ;) I don't think that Barristan's thoughts are necessarily that Ashara was in love with the man who dishonored her. That phrase in Barristan's POV is likely a distraction, especially since it is prefaced with "perhaps" (mayhaps).

ETA: Harrenhal was 24 +/-3 months before the fall of King's Landing. Everytime I try to work it out closer it comes back to 21 months. Ashara was dishonored about two years before she leapt from the Palestone Sword.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Boy we need more stuff! Maybe when Septa Lemore reveals herself as Ashara. ;)

[corbon]

Boy we need more stuff! Maybe hen Septa Lemore reveals herself as Ashara. ;)

Why do you keep doing this?

All the app reveals is what we already know - that as far as is known by readers, Ashara Dayne committed suicide.

Right?

[Bear Island Bruiser]

There's a lot of interesting wordplay around this.

First off Ashara was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal. This could mean a few things. It could mean that this is where she got pregnant but not necessarily. Just that she had sex there. I mean they're all staying in tents and you can imagine that gossip would spread through that camp pretty damn quick. So Ned/Brandon/Benjen (hell why not let's chuck another, incredibly unlikely/definitely not him Stark in there)get's caught doing the walk of shame in the morning rumours are going to start. Even if they're not sure who they're walking from you're going to look at who they danced with. Equally 'dishonoured' could mean that she was sexually assaulted. I mean Lollys was dishonoured quite a lot during the riot in KL. Though I'd be surprised from all the rest of the stuff put.

The pregnancy could easily have been from another meeting at another time. We know from a SSM that Ashara didn't just stay at Starfall during the rebellion but that's about all he's giving away.

In terms of being a daughter and stillborn as far as I can tell that's all Barristan supposition and nothing else so can't really be trusted very far as he could have been a long distance away and just heard rumour.

The suicide seems flakey at best. Killed herself because of the still born kid? OK I buy it as a motive but timing seems strange. Killed herself because Ned (assuming that's her love) was given to another? Hmmm again timing seems off as this would have been fairly widely known a long time before. Killed herself because her brother died? OK timing is right but motivation seems a little weak. Siblings can be close (Cersei and Jamie definitely are) but still seems a little distant to be so upset to kill yourself. Killed herself because the man she loved killed her brother? Possible but still seems a bit of a weak reason to top yourself.

All in all she seems quite an important character in the whole ToJ saga. I mean why did Ned go to her after the ToJ incident? He's been given a huge secret by Lyanna and he'll want to keep it as close as possible until he's safe back in the North but his first action is not just to ride to Starfall but announce his arrival and go to a close Targ supporter to give her back a sword. If he was intent on giving back the sword HR could do it. If he needs a ship he could be in and out of Starfall PGQ. No more is going on there and we know so little about her.

[MtnLion]

Okay, BIB, try this:

Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne and tells Ashara:

1. I killed your brother
   
2. Aegon is dead
   
3. No, though I am now a Lord; I am married, I cannot marry you to restore your honor
   

Lots of reasons for her to become suddenly depressed, to the point of committing suicide, especially if Aegon is her son.

[astonedtargaryen]

I do hope we get to hear more about her in the next books. Personally, I don't believe Jon is the child of Ned and Ashara, or of her and any Stark for that matter, I'm of the opinion that he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Seems to me that Ned spends a lot of time thinking about his promise to Lyanna, what else could it possibly be? If Jon Snow were truly Ashara's bastard, or Brandon's or even Benjin's, we would know it from Ned's POV because he'd be thinking about the secret, however vaguely. But the promise was made to Lyanna, no one else. I think Lyanna knew that if anyone found out who the child's father truly was (Rhaegar) that Robert or the Lannister's would have him killed immediately.

Cercei's accusation about the stolen child sound like spite to me, nothing more. After Ned mysteriously shows up with a bastard at Winterfell, I'm sure all kinds of stories spread throughout the kingdoms. Some singer probably thought to romanticize the tale by connecting Lady Ashara's tragic death to Ned's bastard.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Why do you keep doing this?

All the app reveals is what we already know - that as far as is known by readers, Ashara Dayne committed suicide.

Right?

& the appendix of said app says that Cersei's kids are Robert's, because that's what Westeros "believes". You going to arugue that because the app says it it's so?

BTW-I don't really want you to respond.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Okay, BIB, try this:

Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne and tells Ashara:

1. I killed your brother
   
   
2. Aegon is dead
   
   
3. No, though I am now a Lord; I am married, I cannot marry you to restore your honor
   

Lots of reasons for her to become suddenly depressed, to the point of committing suicide, especially if Aegon is her son.

I've never seen a theory about Aegon being her son. Could you elaborate on it? Let me know where it came from.

I agree that Ned killing her brother is a possibility of it. A lot of close siblings in this but it still seems a little weak.

As for Ned being married to Cat this was months before the events at the ToJ and the news could, and I'd argue would most likely have, reached her before. OK having it up front and in her face like that would have been upsetting but still seems a little weak.

Equally I don't seem to recall any Ned POV quote where he feels guilty about causing, at least indirectly, Ashara to kill herself. Would seem a bit strange not to feel a pang of grief on this if he loved her. I mean the official line is that she killed herself for grief over her brother, who Ned killed, and he gave her the news. There is a lot there for an honourable man to at least be a little troubled over.

It's possible she killed herself. as you say there is a fair bit to feel depressed about, and the whole 'never found the body' is a whole hint at a red herring but I say the fish is off and it stinks to high heaven!

[MtnLion]

I've never seen a theory about Aegon being her son. Could you elaborate on it? Let me know where it came from.

Working back from assuming that Varys tells the truth (maybe not all of it), he tells Devan about Aegon. Knowing that Aegon is likely a false dragon, then he must not be Rhaegar's son. We know that Elia and Ashara were at Harrenhal, and that Elia is said be looking healthier, it is possible that both girls conceived at the same. If both girls delivered at the same time, and Elia's child was a girl they would have motivation to switch the children because Elia cannot have any further children and she has not delivered an heir, and Ashara's child would be a bastard. It is even an easier switch if the girl is stillborn.

So, Varys saves Ashara's child, named Aegon, from the sack of King's Landing, and sends him to Illyrio for safe keeping. Ashara learns of the sack and the death of her child, with everything else I can see a deep grief descending upon her. If Varys, through his birds, offers Ashara a chance to raise Aegon in secret, wouldn't she jump at the chance? She would have to do so and swim (Lemore swims quite well) to the ship that will take her to Pentos.

The major question is, did both gilrs get pregnant at about the same time and deliver within a short tiem of each other in the same apartments with the same attendants in the Red Keep? Some argue against this based on the fact that Ashara should have left Elia's company in disgrace. I think that it wasn't possible for her to make the trip, because the Prince's Pass was snowed in during the winter that followed the false spring of Harrenhal. (Interestingly, if Arthur knows about the exchange, he knows that Jon is the heir without knowing Aegon's fate.)

I agree that Ned killing her brother is a possibility of it. A lot of close siblings in this but it still seems a little weak.

It may have contributed that if she is the one who told Ned where Arthur was. We will have to wait for that tidbit.

As for Ned being married to Cat this was months before the events at the ToJ and the news could, and I'd argue would most likely have, reached her before. OK having it up front and in her face like that would have been upsetting but still seems a little weak.

I think that Ned's and Ashara's feelings for each other have been, uh embellished to make the story believable. I don't think either was in love with the other. However, when Ned becomes the Lord of Winterfell he has enough status that he could, by accepting Ashara as his wife, overcome her dishonor. A dishonored lady does not have much of a future. I think that Barristan's thought of Ashara turning to a Stark were just that, asking Ned to take her as his lady and absolve her of her dishonor. Ned cannot, because he is already married. Barristan thinks that he may have found a way to keep her happy enough to not comit suicide.

Equally I don't seem to recall any Ned POV quote where he feels guilty about causing, at least indirectly, Ashara to kill herself. Would seem a bit strange not to feel a pang of grief on this if he loved her. I mean the official line is that she killed herself for grief over her brother, who Ned killed, and he gave her the news. There is a lot there for an honourable man to at least be a little troubled over.

I don't think Ned ever thought about why Ashara may have committed suicide. He certainly has enough troubles of his own, because of the promise Lyanna asked of him.

It's possible she killed herself. as you say there is a fair bit to feel depressed about, and the whole 'never found the body' is a whole hint at a red herring but I say the fish is off and it stinks to high heaven!

The important part is that she appeared to be depressed enough to kill herself, so when she apparently does, no one seems to investigate further.