Was Tywin Lannister a little TOO Perfect?

[Gurkhal]

But again, this is a tainted victory because Roose intentionally sent this troops into a trap.

How is it tainted? A victory is a victory. It feels like that would mean that Robb's victories are tainted because he used suprise and didn't fight any pitched battles against his opponents.

[ab aeterno]

How is it tainted? A victory is a victory. It feels like that would mean that Robb's victories are tainted because he used suprise and didn't fight any pitched battles against his opponents.

No. Tainted because Roose sent an army into a trap. It was an intentional trap set up for the Tyrell/Lannister forces to win. Like Roose's feint at the beginning of the war.

[Summer is Ending]

I think that Tywin holding together things and at Duskendale Gregor Clegane did lead Lannister troops to fall the Northmen in the back so I think that you should add Clegane to that list. But it comes down to how you view things. You could say that the leader don't do the work because he's not physically wielding the sword but on the other hand you can give him the credit for putting men in place where they will wield their swords to great effect. And that's how I view it and why I think that Tywin was winning, even though he did not physically make the actions themselves.

I think this is one thing Tywin doesn't get enough credit for. I know for myself personally it can be easy to almost dismiss Robb's victories as minor accomplishments at best, little more than raids, because of Tywin's ability to keep his chickens from running around like their heads have been cut off. Disregarding the numbers of soldiers lost in the battles the lords and bannermen captured and killed by the North from Whispering Wood to Oxcross are staggering. A hundred knights captive, and a dozen lords bannermen from Whispering Wood alone.

I don't think a lesser leader like say a Kevan would have been able to cope with everything that was happening in front of him like Tywin not even to mention what was happening to the rear with the ruin Joffrey was creating.

People talk about the Lannister luck but Tywin had no million flower march like Renly, no super duper plot bending shadow binder like Stannis. Not even a direwolf to keep him company. Tywin's a fucking pig merchant but damn he's good at what he does.

[Scipio Africanus]

People talk about the Lannister luck but Tywin had no million flower march like Renly, no super duper plot bending shadow binder like Stannis. Not even a direwolf to keep him company.

He only had the gift that Balon didn't sack Lannisport. And the gift that Stan conveniently murdered Renly opening up Marge for Joff. Or LF selling his services to Cercei instead of Eddard. Or Edmure going idiot on him and spreading his forces out. Or that the Freys and Boltons would be so willing to betray Robb. Or that Robb got wounded at the Crag which just happened to have a nice nubile young girl for her mother to prostitute. Or the Ironborn attacking the North in a mad quest to try and conquer it. Or that Stan didn't march on KL immediately but to Storm's End. Or that Edmure attacked him while he was told by Robb and mr. Blackfish he shouldn't, thus ruining the trap they had set for Tywin.

Nope Tywin is pretty shafted in term of plot gifts. :rolleyes:

[Summer is Ending]

He only had the gift that Balon didn't sack Lannisport. And the gift that Stan conveniently murdered Renly opening up Marge for Joff. Or LF selling his services to Cercei instead of Eddard. Or Edmure going idiot on him and spreading his forces out. Or that the Freys and Boltons would be so willing to betray Robb. Or that Robb got wounded at the Crag which just happened to have a nice nubile young girl for her mother to prostitute. Or the Ironborn attacking the North in a mad quest to try and conquer it. Or that Stan didn't march on KL immediately but to Storm's End. Or that Edmure attacked him while he was told by Robb and mr. Blackfish he shouldn't, thus ruining the trap they had set for Tywin.

Nope Tywin is pretty shafted in term of plot gifts. :rolleyes:

Cultivating a reputation over the years of being the motherfucker that will stomp you to death if you look at him sideways isn't a gift. How did Stannis kill Renly? Or right with the super duper plot bending shadow binder. Why did Stannis kill Renly? Because the super duper plot bending shadow binder told him going to Storm's End would win him Renly's men. littlefinger was never going to work with Ned and made an offer he knew Ned's honor would never let him accept. What's the first thing littlefinger does, ask Cersei for Sansa, his biggest risk came getting Sansa out of KL, he's Ted Bundy needing his Cat substitute he can possess.

Cat's first words to Robb was to never trust Walder Frey yet came out of the Twins promising not only Arya to him but Robb himself for a freaking bridge crossing when the weasel didn't even have the balls to face the boy lord head on after all the losses he had suffered in the war. When you try to see someone like Frey as a trusted bannerman despite all the evidence to the contrary you kind of deserve what you get. Same goes for the Roose. Christ they're so fucking stupid they look at him like sheep and nod approvingly as he tells them with a straight face how the thousands of men the boy lord gave him command of have all mysteriously disappeared yet there's still good news. All his men have magically made it through unscathed. Too fucking dumb to live.

Yeah, I agree there, the plot wound was awful convenient especially the way it was described as minor yet refused to heal. On first reading it I remember wondering if the maester there wasn't up to something there making sure he stayed bedridden.

The Ironborn are mad dogs. They couldn't stand by and watch everyone else have all the fun. They had to attack something. Like dogs they're going to go for what they see as the weakest victim.

Stannis going to Storm's End, see super duper plot bending shadow binder.

As for Edmure, yeah. Got nothing on everybody taking advantage of the idiot. The weak get eaten.

[Tatters The Prince]

He only had the gift that Balon didn't sack Lannisport. And the gift that Stan conveniently murdered Renly opening up Marge for Joff. Or LF selling his services to Cercei instead of Eddard. Or Edmure going idiot on him and spreading his forces out. Or that the Freys and Boltons would be so willing to betray Robb. Or that Robb got wounded at the Crag which just happened to have a nice nubile young girl for her mother to prostitute. Or the Ironborn attacking the North in a mad quest to try and conquer it. Or that Stan didn't march on KL immediately but to Storm's End. Or that Edmure attacked him while he was told by Robb and mr. Blackfish he shouldn't, thus ruining the trap they had set for Tywin.

Nope Tywin is pretty shafted in term of plot gifts. :rolleyes:

All that's true. Tyrion thinks the Lannisters are doomed at the end of Game of Thrones. But most of Tywin's "gifts" are that he is a better tactician than his opposition. Robb's poor communication with Edmure (he didn't tell edmure not to attack Tywin, just to hold Riverrun). Stannis' Stubborness, Ned's Nedness, Edmure's incompetence, those are all the meter sticks we judge Tywin by. That's why he seems smart, because apparently he is smart compared to his peers.

And Balon didn't invade because he was afraid of Tywin, which isn't a gift its a product of Tywin's reputation.

Tywin does a pretty good job with a horrible strategic situation. He has to defend the Westerlands and Crownlands from superior forces which bisect his positions. By retreating to Harrenhal Tywin was able to keep the world from collapsing on his head. There's no way the Westerlands should have been able to fight off the rest of Westeros.

[Tatters The Prince]

Cultivating a reputation over the years of being the motherfucker that will stomp you to death if you look at him sideways isn't a gift. How did Stannis kill Renly? Or right with the super duper plot bending shadow binder. Why did Stannis kill Renly? Because the super duper plot bending shadow binder told him going to Storm's End would win him Renly's men. littlefinger was never going to work with Ned and made an offer he knew Ned's honor would never let him accept. What's the first thing littlefinger does, ask Cersei for Sansa, his biggest risk came getting Sansa out of KL, he's Ted Bundy needing his Cat substitute he can possess.

Cat's first words to Robb was to never trust Walder Frey yet came out of the Twins promising not only Arya to him but Robb himself for a freaking bridge crossing when the weasel didn't even have the balls to face the boy lord head on after all the losses he had suffered in the war. When you try to see someone like Frey as a trusted bannerman despite all the evidence to the contrary you kind of deserve what you get. Same goes for the Roose. Christ they're so fucking stupid they look at him like sheep and nod approvingly as he tells them with a straight face how the thousands of men the boy lord gave him command of have all mysteriously disappeared yet there's still good news. All his men have magically made it through unscathed. Too fucking dumb to live.

Yeah, I agree there, the plot wound was awful convenient especially the way it was described as minor yet refused to heal. On first reading it I remember wondering if the maester there wasn't up to something there making sure he stayed bedridden.

The Ironborn are mad dogs. They couldn't stand by and watch everyone else have all the fun. They had to attack something. Like dogs they're going to go for what they see as the weakest victim.

Stannis going to Storm's End, see super duper plot bending shadow binder.

As for Edmure, yeah. Got nothing on everybody taking advantage of the idiot. The weak get eaten.

Oh, That's not true. If Ned were Regent I'm sure littlefinger would have supported him in order to be made hand. There's no reason for him not to.

Oh come on, Walder Frey had every right to be pissed off. Sure you can't trust him, but a liege lord can only trust any of his banner men so far. Robb is the one violated the agreement. After than all bets were off..

[Tatters The Prince]

No. Tainted because Roose sent an army into a trap. It was an intentional trap set up for the Tyrell/Lannister forces to win. Like Roose's feint at the beginning of the war.

That's true. Though Tywin did suborn Roose. You've kinda gotta blame Robb as its a direct result of ignoring catelyn twice, once with regard to the Freys and once with regard to Theon. Its an honest trick, No different than Renly's ghost.

[ab aeterno]

That's true. Though Tywin did suborn Roose. You've kinda gotta blame Robb as its a direct result of ignoring catelyn twice, once with regard to the Freys and once with regard to Theon. Its an honest trick, No different than Renly's ghost.

I'm not sure whether Tywin or Roose instigated.

I wouldn't quite say it's the same as Renly's ghost just because Renly's ghost was a trick whereas Roose intentionally ordered his men into a trap. I blame Robb somewhat too, and I blame Theon in part as well.

[Tatters The Prince]

I'm not sure whether Tywin or Roose instigated.

I wouldn't quite say it's the same as Renly's ghost just because Renly's ghost was a trick whereas Roose intentionally ordered his men into a trap. I blame Robb somewhat too, and I blame Theon in part as well.

It doesn't matter who instigated it, Tywin still had to convince Roose it was a good idea. The trick part is getting one of your enemy's generals to turn on him. The same way Stannis' generals did when they saw Renly's ghost.

[ab aeterno]

It doesn't matter who instigated it, Tywin still had to convince Roose it was a good idea. The trick part is getting one of your enemy's generals to turn on him.

Not if Roose already decided it was a good idea and went to Tywin, rather than the other way around.

The same way Stannis' generals did when they saw Renly's ghost.

Well, yes, that was the idea behind it, but the way I read Arya's chapters in Harrenhal, I think Roose instigated rather than Tywin.

[Summer is Ending]

Not if Roose already decided it was a good idea and went to Tywin, rather than the other way around.

Well, yes, that was the idea behind it, but the way I read Arya's chapters in Harrenhal, I think Roose instigated rather than Tywin.

Yeah that doesn't even make sense. Why exactly would you have to convince someone coming to you looking for an alliance why an alliance is a good idea. He has to be the one convincing Tywin.

Never get the resistance to the idea that the Roose could be anything but a true and loyal bannerman till the bitter fates forced him to betray his beloved boy lord when the text is full of nothing but reasons why the Boltons should be chomping at the bit to rise up and throw off their Stark shackles at such a weak point in their history.

[ab aeterno]

Yeah that doesn't even make sense. Why exactly would you have to convince someone coming to you looking for an alliance why an alliance is a good idea. He has to be the one convincing Tywin.

Never get the resistance to the idea that the Roose could be anything but a true and loyal bannerman till the bitter fates forced him to betray his beloved boy lord when the text is full of nothing but reasons why the Boltons should be chomping at the bit to rise up and throw off their Stark shackles at such a weak point in their history.

Yeah, I agree. :)

[Summer is Ending]

I won't pretend I thought the Roose was actively working against the North as early as the Green Fork from the very beginning. That only occurred to me last summer realizing how awful everything he did was, how it went counter to the reason Robb put him in command in the first place and the only reason only a third, as if that's not bad enough a loss for a medieval army, of the force was lost was because first Tywin's plan failed and second he began receiving intelligence about what Robb was really up to and didn't pursue and ride down even more northern troops with his calvary as would have been normal.

On first reading Game and hearing about how Martin liked to turn things upside down it was ok, the Boltons look so bad, obviously they're going to prove their worth in some way. Someone that treacherous sounding obviously isn't going to be in Martin's world and actually act true to form. It's just too cliche, there is literally not one single thing about Bolton that would inspire trust so of course he'll prove to be the most trustworthy of all. Martin can be a sneaky fucker.

And for what's it worth he plays coy when asked about the Green Fork and only says well Roose just put himself in a position where he personally could not lose.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Roose_Bolton

[Frey Pie]

All that's true. Tyrion thinks the Lannisters are doomed at the end of Game of Thrones. But most of Tywin's "gifts" are that he is a better tactician than his opposition. Robb's poor communication with Edmure (he didn't tell edmure not to attack Tywin, just to hold Riverrun). Stannis' Stubborness, Ned's Nedness, Edmure's incompetence, those are all the meter sticks we judge Tywin by. That's why he seems smart, because apparently he is smart compared to his peers.

And Balon didn't invade because he was afraid of Tywin, which isn't a gift its a product of Tywin's reputation..

Just one or two points: Edmure kicked Tywins ass in the only battle they ever fought in, Stannis is still alive and kicking when he should be dead ten times over and Neds Nedness has the North fighting for his dead family long after his death, not to mention the way he was instrumental in winning two wars due to his Nedness. So ya, taking into account that in a comparison of Tywins peers.....

And Balon didnt invade the west because hes mad and holds a grudge against Ned for putting down his rebellion.

[Where Boars Glow]

It would have been smarter to not piss so many people off at once. As the matriarch of his family he did a horrible job of keeping that daughter and grandson of his in check.

He needed the Grandson and Daughter in place to hold power? Do you suggest he kept them locked in a dungeon somewhere. Alot has been said on here about How everything magically fell into place for Tywin and he didn't do anything himself. Tywins family making boneheaded political messes he had to clean up was his cross to bare...and he did the best with it as he could. It almost worked out for him if not for a single unforseeable wildcard with his son.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Tywin is so not perfect. He never found out about Jaime and Cersei. He alienated Tyrion, the only child of his capable of using their brain to its full capacity IMO. He was defeated over and over by Robb. Yes, people feared him. But that's it. I doubt anyone loved him-outside his family of course. He's not exactly a lovable guy. :lol:

[Jack of Munster]

I think that he was shown to be socially imperfect. Taking that away, the people thought him perfect/indestructible and his death showed how it was truly an illusion and even whores weren't above him. That's my opinion and i'm doubtful anyone could change that b ecause i love the character.

[Gurkhal]

Tywin is so not perfect. He never found out about Jaime and Cersei. He alienated Tyrion, the only child of his capable of using their brain to its full capacity IMO. He was defeated over and over by Robb. Yes, people feared him. But that's it. I doubt anyone loved him-outside his family of course. He's not exactly a lovable guy. :lol:

The fact tha his family loved him would seem that he's lovable enough. Its not like its uncommon to have enemies in Westeros. Also Tywin was not defeated a single time by Robb as they never faced each other on the battlefield.

[Toos]

The fact tha his family loved him would seem that he's lovable enough.

Tyrion didn't like Tywin, Jaime seems little indifferent about Tywin, Genna didn't like late Tywin and Tygett seems that he wasn't fond on him either.