Was Tywin Lannister a little TOO Perfect?

[Where Boars Glow]

Personally it seems more likely to me that Bolton was already aware of how that marriage could collapse Robb's entire war effort, and I think it more likely that Roose moved first with the Freys after the marriage. He was sharing a castle with them, after all, and sharing secret letters with his "wife."

It's possible. Eitherway the whole thing was a masterstroak that put all three houses on top. With Lannister at the peak.

[Where Boars Glow]

I dont think it can be argued that Robb liked the girl and she him. Plenty of textual evidence for both

Nobodies saying it was a bad strategy, although im not convinced the benefits of it short term outweigh the longterm negatives for all three major houses guilty

I still dont see how Tywin could orchestrate all of it, and predict each and every outcome so perfectly. Hed have to have been able to predict the future

I think less that and more as you said...seeing events unfold and playing the hand he was dealt to secure his advantage at every turn.

[ab aeterno]

It's possible. Eitherway the whole thing was a masterstroak that put all three houses on top. With Lannister at the peak.

I would disagree on all three counts. The Freys are lords of nothing as they cannot possibly control of hope to control the Riverlands. They're hated by literally everyone and being hunted by the BwB and the Northmen. Roose and the Boltons are hated and reviled by the entire North and are snowed in to WF surrounded by enemies inside and out. Even if they themselves survive it almost certainly won't be in a good way.

As for the Lannisters, what Tywin has ended up with is the Tyrells as the de-facto power in the realm. The Lannisters now have no real armies, KL is controlled by the Tyrells. Tywin also gifted the North to Stannis by eliminating Robb who was all that stood between them.

[Where Boars Glow]

Good talk guys. I am out but you both raised some good points. I just think you will have a hard time swaying me from the idea that Tywin was about as good as the pages offered when it came to mixing playing the game with ruthless military prowess. It just seems like every character around felt the same just like they felt Ned was honorable. It just seems indisputable. :)

[Frey Pie]

I think less that and more as you said...seeing events unfold and playing the hand he was dealt to secure his advantage at every turn.

Yes took advantage but it has to be said-i dont think anyone received more good luck then Tywin. Im not taking away from him, he did what he had to to stay on top but his luck was more of a help then all his gold and men

[Frey Pie]

Good talk guys. I am out but you both raised some good points. I just think you will have a hard time swaying me from the idea that Tywin was about as good as the pages offered when it came to mixing playing the game with ruthless military prowess. It just seems like every character around felt the same just like they felt Ned was honorable. It just seems indisputable. :)

I agree with that bit and you also made some nice points :cheers:

[Frey Pie]

A question-does Tywin use propaganda? And has it really worked so well?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Not ravens....on foot. You think knowone has ever snuck a message into a castle before. especially one that was your bannermen and probably had friendlies already inside....heck even a servant who wanted a big sack of gold. :)

But people on foot (or horse) would take quite some time to the Crag, several days or weeks from the next Western castle with a rookery, literally months from KL. Through an area patrolled by wolves.

It's possible. Eitherway the whole thing was a masterstroak that put all three houses on top. With Lannister at the peak.

... and started the pendulum to swing very, very wide. The backswing is bound to have the biggest impact since the Long Night.

[Lion of Judah]

Perfect isn't the adjective I would use; pompous, arrogant, they are more suiting. I personally think he was a coward as well, he could find the stones to face Robb Stark on the field of battle. He could stand up to the Mad King the way Robert and company did, even though he was wronged as well.

[Minstral]

If Tywin is anything close to "perfect" then I am made of cheese.

Characters within the book (and the readers) seem to take a formidable man and make him into something more in their heads. Perception is what makes people and things perfect, especially when we see the image of Tywin from the point of view of characters that either aspire to be like him or those that fear his reputation. When we meet Genna Lannister, we are introduced to someone who is not in awe of her brother so we get a view that shows Tywin in a not so "perfect" light.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hmmm, I think Tywin speaking out against Genna's betrothal to a Frey and sticking up for his little sister may have been the only good thing Tywin has ever done.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Tywin Lannister did not shit gold.

But it sounds like he had some killer sideburns.

[SansaSnark]

I think Tywin's extreme pride is supposed to be a flaw. I don't think he was anywhere near perfect, if anything he was a too perfect a villian. Too easy to hate. I wish he was a little more grey.

[Minstral]

I think Tywin's extreme pride is supposed to be a flaw. I don't think he was anywhere near perfect, if anything he was a too perfect a villian. Too easy to hate. I wish he was a little more grey.

Keep in mind that we "know" Tywin from the perspective of the son he hates the most, Tyrion who also has a strong hatred for his father. We may see him briefly interact with Jaime, and Cersei reminisces on her father but most negativity that we attribute to his character is because we first saw him through the eyes of Tyrion. Now I am not saying that he does not deserve to be called out for a unnecessarily brutal man that helped bring about Tyrion's issues and starving out Westeros in this terrible civil war (that he started), but he could have seemed a grey character if we met him through a different VP. We first hear of him when Ned reflects how he presented the bodies of the royal family to Robert, and later when Tyrion relates the results of his wedding to Bronn. Had we seen him first through VP of Robert, then he would simply think that a brutal act was necessary. If we had the VP of Kevan in the instance of Tysha, then we would hear how "she needed to be stripped of her power" and how she was rightfully cast out (probably without a mention to the rape, or maybe something along the lines of "she was shown to be a whore when she was paid to sleep with those men").

In fact, the reason that Tywin comes off as "too perfect" to the reader really has to do with the lens with which we see him through, namely Tyrion and to a lesser extent Jaime and Cersei. These three are literally in awe of the man, and in the view of Tyrion and Cersei, aspire to be like him. These are the three most used lenses that we see Tywin through, so of course he comes off as the man that can shake the world.

[Where Boars Glow]

A question-does Tywin use propaganda? And has it really worked so well?

And back we come. Yes of course. The whole Raines of Castamere thing was the best kind of propaganda. If you make the concept of yourself bigger then you are you don't have to fight and waste resource anymore.....you just drop your enemies with their own imaginations.

[ed Lannister]

Gregor was more useful for Tywin true but the problem was the Martells knew they were being "cheated" and if Tyrion had his doubts if the Martells would swallow Tywin's explination, you could bet that the Martells would have problems buying it as well. You see, the rumors were already floating around for decades by the time Tywin decides to rewrite history in his favour. Not only that but there's always people like Varys who did remember what happened that day, and I have no doubt inquiries were made to the exact nature of Elia and her children's demises.

Book Tywin clearly didn't care for any of that. He assumed they'd just swallow his lies and could be further bullied into submission with threats of use of force. His idea of making it slightly more eadible was dumping Cercei off on Oberyn after she was refused by the QoT to dump her off on poor ol' Willas Tyrell. Needless to say the Martells didn't take that seriously and continued in their quest for vengeance against the Mountain and Tywin.

the point was that he fulfiled the justice tyrion promised the way he saw fit........for 17 yrs the martells knew tywin ordered the deaths of the children and they plotted all they could to bring him down and tywin himself knew that they knew it was him who sent amory and gregor... but he was never going to let them have their way by giving them an excuse to rebel openly coz of not fulfilling the said justice they sought .oberyn clearly showed that the martells wanted the destruction of the lannister family and gregor was never going to be the end of the justice they sought....and tywin knew that....all he wanted was their fealty offer amory for the deaths and he tried to further sooth over the martells by offering cersei as a match to oberyn. At no point did he ever use bully tactics with his dealings with the martells......and even if the martells had rebuffed him with a rebellion he already in his corner had the power of the stormlands,westerlands,crownlands,the reach, and the remaining powerful houses in the north and riverlands on his side....he had the advantage over the martells.......(i assume the quest for vengeance was doran sending quentyn to woo dany and her dragons)

the martells would just suck up whatever was served to them...

[Where Boars Glow]

But people on foot (or horse) would take quite some time to the Crag, several days or weeks from the next Western castle with a rookery, literally months from KL. Through an area patrolled by wolves.

... and started the pendulum to swing very, very wide. The backswing is bound to have the biggest impact since the Long Night.

I agree it was the thing that started fate swinging against him.....but it was to good an opening not to try.

He probably has a network of intelligence agents that pass the info between eachother. Not just 1 guy riding the days straight.

[Where Boars Glow]

Perfect isn't the adjective I would use; pompous, arrogant, they are more suiting. I personally think he was a coward as well, he could find the stones to face Robb Stark on the field of battle. He could stand up to the Mad King the way Robert and company did, even though he was wronged as well.

It's a point but i would also suggest meeting Rob in the field made little sense. He had time on his side and other enemies beyond Rob where as Rob only had to worry about having enough men left to beat Tywin. If Tywin beats rob in the field he would have had to immeadiately turn around and deal with the winner of Stannis vs Renly. Going toe to toe with another large army first and weakening yourself doesn't seem that sensible. It seems prudant not cowardly....which also goes against pompus.

[Where Boars Glow]

If Tywin is anything close to "perfect" then I am made of cheese.

Characters within the book (and the readers) seem to take a formidable man and make him into something more in their heads. Perception is what makes people and things perfect, especially when we see the image of Tywin from the point of view of characters that either aspire to be like him or those that fear his reputation. When we meet Genna Lannister, we are introduced to someone who is not in awe of her brother so we get a view that shows Tywin in a not so "perfect" light.

He definately made some serious errors...especially with his children.

I would say beyond that he had a tendancy to be VERY good at looking at the broad picture.....but not the long term picture. Which in the end was his undoing.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Perfect isn't the adjective I would use; pompous, arrogant, they are more suiting. I personally think he was a coward as well, he could find the stones to face Robb Stark on the field of battle. He could stand up to the Mad King the way Robert and company did, even though he was wronged as well.

and to add insult to injury aerys was his friend. And after dusken dale in need of help. No wonder he his paranioic shizophrenia got the better of him