Was Tywin Lannister a little TOO Perfect?

[ed Lannister]

Yes, you're saying it yourself, Tywin thought he could tell them whatever he wanted and even if they retched it out he could bully them into submission.

ps it wouldn't have stopped the Martells plotting against Tywin. And it didn't.

(..all he wanted was their fealty offer amory for the deaths and he tried to further sooth over the martells by offering cersei as a match to oberyn. At no point did he ever use bully tactics with his dealings with the martells......

the fiirst part of the statement clearly shows tywin handling the whole martell angle using dilpomacy and marriage (armory and cersei) he he simply made it from the strong position he was... nothing more... if the blood debt was what martells needed to swear their fealty to the iron throne he added cersei coz they had myrcella alreday. doran expicitly does the same thing with the yronwoods with his son quentyn for oberyn's blood debt.

.and even if the martells had rebuffed him with a rebellion he already in his corner had the power of the stormlands,westerlands,crownlands,the reach, and the remaining powerful houses in the north and riverlands on his side)

second part already shows that he had the military option as a back up if things would escalate to confrotation with the martells(tyrion even hints to oberyn when he went to recieve their 300 strong entourage)..again similarities to doran's offer to the yronwoods was made with the

knowledge had the yronwood risen up in rebellion he had the sronger backing of the dornish bannermen to deal with the yronwoods

the yronwoods took whatever they had to recompense them for the death of one of their own from the martells....but if oberyn with his daftness could not see the hand streched out to them by the lannisters to cease hostilities then tywin is not to blame.....

The problem with book Tywin is that took the achievements of others (LF, Varys, Tarly) and totally gloryhogged it, and even more astonishing everyone around him inbook praised him for it too. Not only is it highly annoying - it isn't true either.

If you look at roughly what happened in the Wot5K:

- Cercei has Bobby B have an "accident" by telling Lancel to spike Bob's wine - no Tywin involvement here

- Cercei grabs power in KL, Renly flees, Stan had already fled, Eddard is captured - no Tywin involvement here, it was LF who sold the GCs to Cercei, and good fortune

- Tywin starts to raid the Riverlands, though not under his banners - Tywin's work

- Before Eddard is disposed, he orders Beric Dondarrion to deal with the raiders, which turns out to be a missed opportunity as LF and Varys point out as Eddard should've sent Loras Tyrell, not only that but Eddard sends most of his personal strength along with Beric - no Tywin involvement here, and good fortune

- Tywin orders mr. Mountain, his favourite pet, to either capture or kill Eddard (Tywin assumes Eddard would ride out personally, but Jamie spoiled that plan)

- Edmure and his bannermen, amazingly miss that Tywin is building up troops at their borders, and coventiently lets his bannermen spread out their troops (not to mention, not raise more troops to match Tywin's build up - no Tywin involvement here, pure idiocy on the part of Edmure and a massive plot gift by Martin

- Cat captures Tyrion, giving Jamie an excuse to attack Eddard in KL, crippling him and limiting Eddard's movements - no Tywin involvement here, good fortune

- Tywin invades the Riverlands with most of his troops and bowls over Riverland troops piecemeal - Tywin work

- Tywin blocks any potential threat from the North while covering KL, and sends Jamie to invest Riverrun while Stafford Lannisters raises more troops at the Golden Tooth - Tywin's work, actually the only good militairy movement he personally made in the Wot5K

- Joff has Eddard executed, forcing Tywin to send someone to KL and rule over him and Cercei, he grudgingly sends his dwarf son - yes it was his decision, but the wording in Tywin's letter was unfortunate and immediately caused a rift between Tyrion and Cercei

- Robb sneaks by his position on the King's road thanks to his new alliance with the frickle Freys, and takes Jamie with his pants down (Jamie's conduct as a commander is pretty poor here) - Tywin is caught by surprise because he totally underestimates his opponent, something which oddly would last till Robb's death

- Tywin wins a feinted nothern attack led by Roose Bolton - a pyrric victory considering he lost much of the army besieging Riverrun

- Tywin decides that while he still needs to cover KL, Robb should be dealth with first, but that Robb is a stupid boy and surrounded by stupid people so he'd have no problem in getting Robb to attack him at Harrenhal - a severer mistake as it left the initiative to all his enemies, and only through good fortune and plot gifts this was not punished

- Robb decides rightly to ignore Tywin's position at Harrenhal and does the only sensible thing, bring the war to Tywin's lands, Robb's succesfully circemvents the Golden Tooth and defeats Stafford Lannister's army, basically leaving the Westlands open - a mistake by Tywin here for not keeping up the pressure and opening up his lands for invasion

- Balon Greyjoy goes idiot and doesn't want to do the obvious thing - sack Lannisport (which was lightly defended I gather) to bankroll his further schemes, but he decided he wants the North (how he ever thought to conquer it entirely is beyond any rational thought, considering the number of troops involved) - no involvement by Tywin here, massive plot gift by Martin and highly fortunate

- Stan has Renly murdered through bloodmagic, as Cercei later mentions in her POV this was highly fortunate as Renly would've far more easily gathered support from Westeros' nobles - no Tywin involvement here, plot gift by Martin

- Stan decides to go to Storm's End first instead of KL, which wasn't fully prepared yet for a siege - no Tywin involvement and good fortune

- While Robb is in the Westlands, Edmure decided he needs some glory as well and pulls troops from the Twins and gives Roose Bolton an independant command, opening up communication possibilities - no Tywin involvement here and good fortune

- Tywin somehow hears Robb has been wounded at the Crag and he somehow manages to plot with Sybell Spicer to prostitute Jeyne so Robb would marry her and break his alliance with the Freys - a good political move, but based on fortune

- Tywin opens up communication with the Freys and Boltons - a good move, but fortunate that they would be so willing to betray Robb, yet he did guess their nature correctly

- Tywin, knowing Stan is at Storm's end, decides to leave Harrenhal finally and go to the Westlands to trap Robb, but elements of his army are delayed as Edmure attacks him, ruining an ambush Robb and the Blackfish planned - Tywin had no clue and would've walked straight into a trap, highly fortunate

- Tyrion meanwhile shoals up support with the Tyrells and the Martells, by sending LF to Bitterbridge to negotiate a marriage pact between Joff and Marge, and by sending Myrcella to Dorne - no Tywin involvement here

- Tywin is now able to ignore the Starks for now, especially considering the Ironborn invasion of the North (plot gift) and being no other threat then Stan, he can join most of his army with the massive Tyrell army, however he leads only one wing - limited Tywin involvement here

- Tyrion has meanwhile been busy at the defenses, sending most of his own troops to the king's wood to harrass Stan's vanguard, and by having a chain made to span accross Blackwater, and by ordering large batches of wildfire - no Tywin involvement here

- Stan decides not to take command of the fleet, but to leave it to some (inexperienced?) Florent who makes a massive clown move not to scout Blackwater when the battles starts - unforced error by Stan, no Tywin involvement

- LF meanwhile convinces Garlan Tyrell to wear Renly's old armour, to dismay Stan's forces and to convince them to bend the knee to Joff, Stan is spanked back accross the water to Dragonstone - no Tywin involvement here

- Roose Bolton meanwhile takes in Harrenhal, after the weasel soup incident, and is now able to fully help Tywin in betraying the North - no Tywin involvement

- Roose Bolton sends Glover and Karstark with a lot of the North's infantry to Duskendale, where Tarly is waiting with a host of Tyrell troops, and results in the loss of a third of Robb's infantry - limited Tywin involvement here

- Robb returns from the Westlands and turns north to face the Ironborn and Walder Frey, but he is subsequently murdered at his uncles wedding during the RW incident, and Edmure is captured - a politcal victory here for Tywin

- Balon is killed by a FM sent by his brother Euron Greyjoy - no Tywin involvement here.

And this concludes the first part of the Wot5K. As we can see Tywin really didn't do all that much other then get defeated in the field and conspiring with the most untrustworthy houses in Westeros to a murder. All else was fortune and the work of others.

On a final note I'd say Tywin actually did constantly think long term - he just didn't see the bigger picture (like how the Martells were plotting, the Tyrell involvement in Joff's death, the Ironborn, the Vale, the political situation in the North). He thought he could bully everyone into submission and his house would live on for a thousend years with a few marriages and some threats despite that he knew he made scores of enemies.

This are tywin actions

Edmure sent emisaries to casterly rock to declare his intentions when news reaches them that tywin is gathering swords.....the emissaries never get back to edmure

tywin invading the riverlands

“I suppose you will be wanting some new men.”

“Don’t trouble yourself, Father, I’ve acquired a few of my own.” He tried a swallow of the ale. It was brown and yeasty, so thick you could almost chew it. Very fine, in truth. A pity his father had hanged the innkeep. “How is your war going?”

His uncle answered. “Well enough, for the nonce. Ser Edmure had scattered small troops of men along his borders to stop our raiding, and your lord father and I were able to destroy most of them piecemeal before they could regroup.”

delegating a host to jaime to seige riverun

“Your brother has been covering himself with glory,” his father said. “He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds.”

further capturing more riverland territory

“Your father and I have been marching on each in turn,” Ser Kevan said. “With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens...”

“Leaving you unopposed?” Tyrion said.

“Not wholly,” Ser Kevan said. “The Mallisters still hold Seagard and Walder Frey is marshaling his levies at the Twins.”

“No matter,” Lord Tywin said. “Frey only takes the field when the scent of victory is in the air, and all he smells now is ruin. And Jason Mallister lacks the strength to fight alone. Once Jaime takes Riverrun, they will both be quick enough to bend the knee. Unless the Starks and the Arryns come forth to oppose us, this war is good as won.”

Note he does not guarantee victory coz he knows the starks or arryns may come to the aid of riverlands

tywin getting news the stark host is marching down the causeway....

Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance. The door banged open again. The messenger gave Tyrion’s clansmen a quick, queer look as he dropped to one knee before Lord Tywin. “My lord,” he said, “Ser Addam bid me tell you that the Stark host is moving down the causeway.”

Lord Tywin Lannister did not smile. Lord Tywin never smiled, but Tyrion had learned to read his father’s pleasure all the same, and it was there on his face. “So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions,” he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. “Splendid. Return to Ser Addam and tell him to fall back. He is not to engage the northerners until we arrive, but I want him to harass their flanks and draw them farther south.”

“It will be as you command.” The rider took his leave.

“We are well situated here,” Ser Kevan pointed out. “Close to the ford and ringed by pits and spikes. If they are coming south, I say let them come, and break themselves against us.”

“The boy may hang back or lose his courage when he sees our numbers,” Lord Tywin replied. “The sooner the Starks are broken, the sooner I shall be free to deal with Stannis Baratheon. Tell the drummers to beat assembly, and send word to Jaime that I am marching against Robb Stark.”

“As you will,” Ser Kevan said.

note:-tywin knows stannis is preparing for war

tywin knows the freys have joined the stark host

“Ser Addam’s outriders say the Stark host has moved south from the Twins,” his father reported as his trencher was filled with slices of pork. “Lord Frey’s levies have joined them. They are likely no more than a day’s march north of us.”

From cat's POV tywin men under ser addam had engaged in few skirmishes

She ought to have known that Brynden Blackfish would be well ahead of her. “What have the Freys been doing while the Lannisters; burn their fields and plunder their holdfasts?”

“There’s been some fighting between Ser Addam’s men and Lord Walder’s,” Theon answered. “Not a day’s ride from here, we found two Lannister scouts feeding the crows where the Freys had strung them up. Most of Lord Walder’s strength remains massed at the Twins, though.”

Tywins host routing the stark's host in greenfork roose escaping but capturing valuable prisoners but learning robb stark is marching to riverun

Lord Tywin was seated by the river, sipping wine from a jeweled cup as his squire undid the fastenings on his breastplate. “A fine victory,” Ser Kevan said when he saw Tyrion. “Your wild men fought well.”

His father’s eyes were on him, pale green flecked with gold, so cool they gave Tyrion a chill. “Did that surprise you, Father?” he asked. “Did it upset your plans? We were supposed to be butchered, were we not?”

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. “I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I’d hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan’s pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve.”

“And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans.”

“A feigned rout is less convincing,” his father said, “and I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages.”

“A pity my savages ruined your dance.” Tyrion pulled off his steel gauntlet and let it fall to the ground, wincing at the pain that stabbed up his arm.

“The Stark boy proved more cautious than I expected for one of his years,” Lord Tywin admitted, “but a victory is a victory. You appear to be wounded.”

Tyrion’s right arm was soaked with blood. “Good of you to notice, Father,” he said through clenched teeth. “Might I trouble you to send for your maesters? Unless you relish the notion of having a one-armed dwarf for a son...”

An urgent shout of “Lord Tywin!” turned his father’s head before he could reply. Tywin Lannister rose to his feet as Ser Addam Marbrand leapt down off his courser. The horse was lathered and bleeding from the mouth. Ser Addam dropped to one knee, a rangy man with dark copper hair that fell to his shoulders, armored in burnished bronzed steel with the fiery tree of his House etched black on his breastplate. “My liege, we have taken some of their commanders. Lord Cerwyn, Ser Wylis Manderly, Harrion Karstark, four Freys. Lord Hornwood is dead, and I fear Roose Bolton has escaped us.”

“And the boy?” Lord Tywin asked.

Ser Addam hesitated. “The Stark boy was not with them, my lord. They say he crossed at the Twins with the great part of his horse, riding hard for Riverrun.”

here you get to see tywin in executing a battle plan that no one gives him credit but tywin does not know robb has split his forces

jaime losing to robb in whispering sound i cant see why anyone would pin the loss on tywin jaime knew the starkhost was approaching meaning tywin mesages had reached him

Lord Jason Mallister had brought his power out from Seagard to join them as they swept around the headwaters of the Blue Fork and galloped south, and others had crept forth as well, hedge knights and small lords and masterless men-at-arms who had fled north when her brother Edmure’s army was shattered beneath the walls of Riverrun. They had driven their horses as hard as they dared to reach this place before Jaime Lannister had word of their coming, and now the hour was at hand.

jaime restlessness and impulsiveness the coz for the loss in whispering sound not realizing ser bryden tactics to draw him away from riverrun... note robb employing same tactics ser addam used to draw out the northern forces delegating to ser brynden tull to draw jaime away from riverun

Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black. He was not wearing a helm.

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.Nodding, Robb had studied the map her uncle had drawn him. Ned had taught him to read maps. “Raid him here,” he said, pointing. “A few hundred men, no more. Tully banners. When he comes after you, we will be waiting”-his finger moved an inch to the left-”here.”

“He is no man for sitting in a tent while his carpenters build siege towers,” Ser Brynden had promised. “He has ridden out with his knights thrice already, to chase down raiders or storm a stubborn holdfast.”

jaime getting captured in whispering wood and the stark host under robbs command dont even know tywin had split their forces and where tywin is while shooting down ravens going to and from riverun...tywin was sending ravens to jaime to warn him they just never got there after deducin robb will have to march to relieve riverun

The night was warm, but the thought of Riverrun was enough to make her shiver. Where are they? she wondered. Could her uncle have been wrong? So much rested on the truth of what he had told them. Robb had given the Blackfish three hundred picked men, and sent them ahead to screen his march. “Jaime does not know,” Ser Brynden said when he rode back. “I’ll stake my life on that. No bird has reached him, my archers have seen to that. We’ve seen a few of his outriders, but those that saw us did not live to tell of it. He ought to have sent out more. He does not know.”

“How large is his host?” her son asked.

“Twelve thousand foot, scattered around the castle in three separate camps, with the rivers between,” her uncle said, with the craggy smile she remembered so well. “There is no other way to besiege Riverrun, yet still, that will be their undoing. Two or three thousand horse.”

“The Kingslayer has us three to one,” said Galbart Glover.

“True enough,” Ser Brynden said, “yet there is one thing Ser Jaime lacks.”

“Yes?” Robb asked.

“Patience.”

“Why should Lord Karstark want him dead?” Catelyn asked.

Robb looked away into the woods, with the same brooding look that Ned often got. “He... he killed them...”

“Lord Karstark’s sons,” Galbart Glover explained.

“Both of them,” said Robb. “Torrhen and Eddard. And Daryn Hornwood as well.”

“No one can fault Lannister on his courage,” Glover said. “When he saw that he was lost, he rallied his retainers and fought his way up the valley, hoping to reach Lord Robb and cut him down. And almost did.”

“He mislaid his sword in Eddard Karstark’s neck, after he took Torrhen’s hand off and split Daryn Hornwood’s skull open,” Robb said. “All the time he was shouting for me. If they hadn’t tried to stop him-”

“-I should then be mourning in place of Lord Karstark,” Catelyn said. “Your men did what they were sworn to do, Robb. They died protecting their liege lord. Grieve for them. Honor them for their valor. But not now. You have no time for grief. You may have lopped the head off the

snake, but three quarters of the body is still coiled around my father’s castle. We have won a battle, not a war.”

“But such a battle!” said Theon Greyjoy eagerly. “My lady, the realm has not seen such a victory since the Field of Fire. I vow, the Lannisters lost ten men for every one of ours that fell. We’ve taken close to a hundred knights captive, and a dozen lords bannermen. Lord Westerling, Lord Banefort, Ser Garth Greenfield, Lord Estren, Ser Tytos Brax, Mallor the Dornishman... and three Lannisters besides Jaime, Lord Tywin’s own nephews, two of his sister’s sons and one of his dead brother’s...”

“And Lord Tywin?” Catelyn interrupted. “Have you perchance taken Lord Tywin, Theon?”

“No,” Greyjoy answered, brought up short.

“Until you do, this war is far from done.”

Robb raised his head and pushed his hair back out of his eyes. “My mother is right. We still have Riverrun.”

so much praise is given to robb for outsmarting tywin yet they thought they were fighting the entire lannister host

Tywin getting news of jaime loss in whispering wood and riverun

They have my son,” Tywin Lannister said.“They do, my lord.” The messenger’s voice was dulled by exhaustion His lord father’s assembled captains and bannermen had fallen very quiet as the courier told his tale

tywin had driven in south in haste coz he knew jaime would be in a haste

jaime's loss was a due to ser brynden sturdiness in not letting messages through from tywin via ravens... the last message got was tywin's host was engaging the entire stark host this is all ser bryndens tullys work...

“How could this happen?” Ser Harys Swyft moaned. “How? Even after the Whispering Wood, you had Riverrun ringed in iron, surrounded by a great host... what madness made Ser Jaime decide to split his men into three separate camps? Surely he knew how vulnerable that would leave them?”

Better than you, you chinless craven, Tyrion thought. Jaime might have lost Riverrun, but it angered him to hear his brother slandered by the likes of Swyft, a shameless lickspittle whose greatest accomplishment was marrying his equally chinless daughter to Ser Kevan, and thereby attaching himself to the Lannisters.

“I would have done the same,” his uncle responded, a good deal more calmly than Tyrion might have. “You have never seen Riverrun, Ser Harys, or you would know that Jaime had little choice in the matter. The castle is situated at the end of the point of land where the Tumblestone flows into the Red Fork of the Trident. The rivers form two sides of a triangle, and when danger threatens, the Tullys open their sluice gates upstream to create a wide moat on the third side, turning Riverrun into an island. The walls rise sheer from the water, and from their towers the defenders have a commanding view of the opposite shores for many leagues around. To cut off all the approaches, a besieger must needs place one camp north of the Tumblestone, one south of the Red Fork, and a third between the rivers, west of the moat. There is no other way, none.”

“Ser Kevan speaks truly, my lords,” the courier said. “We’d built palisades of sharpened stakes around the camps, yet it was not enough, not with no warning and the rivers cutting us off from each other. They came down on the north camp first. No one was expecting an attack. Marq Piper had been raiding our supply trains, but he had no more than fifty men. Ser Jaime had gone out to deal with them the night before... well, with what we thought was them. We were told the Stark host was east of the Green Fork, marching south...”

“And your outriders?” Ser Gregor Clegane’s face might have been hewn from rock. The fire in the hearth gave a somber orange cast to his skin and put deep shadows in the hollows of his eyes. “They saw nothing? They gave you no warning?”

The bloodstained messenger shook his head. “Our outriders had been vanishing. Marq Piper’s work, we thought. The ones who did come back had seen nothing.”

“A man who sees nothing has no use for his eyes,” the Mountain declared. “Cut them out and give them to your next outrider. Tell him you hope that four eyes might see better than two... and if not, the man after him will have six.”

tywin making a decision to keep the lannisters in the game after jaime's host has been decimated... only ser addam and tywin ,gregor and tyrion think of fighting on the choice tywin makes raise a new host from either KL or casterly/lannisport ...also anew threat arises from renly at this point he has to deal with stannis and now renly(tywin is in the loop at all time of what is going on even in the reach,prevents total collapse of the lannister army...acknowledge tyrions brilliance and send him to KL to set things right and as well finish of robb first and deal with the baratheon brothers).

...Sorry, my lord,” the messenger said. “Lord Brax was clad in plate-and-mail when his raft overturned. He was very gallant.”

He was a fool, Tyrion thought, swirling his cup and staring down into the winy depths. Crossing a river at night on a crude raft, wearing armor, with an enemy waiting on the other side-if that was gallantry, he would take cowardice every time. He wondered if Lord Brax had felt especially gallant as the weight of his steel pulled him under the black water.

“The camp between the rivers was overrun as well,” the messenger was saying. “While we were trying to cross, more Starks swept in from the west, two columns of armored horse. I saw

Lord Umber’s giant-in-chains and the Mallister eagle, but it was the boy who led them, with a monstrous wolf running at his side. I wasn’t there to see, but it’s said the beast killed four men and ripped apart a dozen horses. Our spearmen formed up a shieldwall and held against their first charge, but when the Tullys saw them engaged, they opened the gates of Riverrun and Tytos Blackwood led a sortie across the drawbridge and took them in the rear.”

“Gods save us,” Lord Lefford swore.

“Greatjon Umber fired the siege towers we were building, and Lord Blackwood found Ser Edmure Tully in chains among the other captives, and made off with them all. Our south camp was under the command of Ser Forley Prester. He retreated in good order when he saw that the other camps were lost, with two thousand spears and as many bowmen, but the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe.”

“Curse the man.” His uncle Kevan sounded more angry than surprised. “I warned Jaime not to trust that one. A man who fights for coin is loyal only to his purse.”

Lord Tywin wove his fingers together under his chin. Only his eyes moved as he listened. His bristling golden side-whiskers framed a face so still it might have been a mask, but Tyrion could see tiny beads of sweat dappling his father’s shaven head.

“How could it happen?” Ser Harys Swyft wailed again. “Ser Jaime taken, the siege broken... this is a catastrophe!”

Ser Addarn Marbrand said, “I am sure we are all grateful to you for pointing out the obvious, Ser Harys. The question is, what shall we do about it?”

“What can we do? Jaime’s host is all slaughtered or taken or put to flight, and the Starks and the Tullys sit squarely across our line of supply. We are cut off from the west! They can march on Casterly Rock if they so choose, and what’s to stop them? My lords, we are beaten. We must sue for peace.”

“Peace?” Tyrion swirled his wine thoughtfully, took a deep draft, and hurled his empty cup to the floor, where it shattered into a thousand pieces. “There’s your peace, Ser Harys. My sweet nephew broke it for good and all when he decided to ornament the Red Keep with Lord Eddard’s head. You’ll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He’s winning... or hadn’t you noticed?”

“Two battles do not make a war,” Ser Addam insisted. “We are far from lost. I should welcome the chance to try my own steel against this Stark boy.”

“Perhaps they would consent to a truce, and allow us to trade our prisoners for theirs,” offered Lord Lefford.

“Unless they trade three-for-one, we still come out light on those scales,” Tyrion said acidly. “And what are we to offer for my brother? Lord Eddard’s rotting head?”

“I had heard that Queen Cersei has the Hand’s daughters,” Lefford said hopefully. “If we give the lad his sisters back...”

Ser Addam snorted disdainfully. “He would have to be an utter ass to trade Jaime Lannister’s life for two girls.”

“Then we must ransom Ser Jaime, whatever it costs,” Lord Lefford said.

Tyrion rolled his eyes. “If the Starks feel the need for gold, they can melt down Jaime’s armor.”

“if we ask for a truce, they will think us weak,” Ser Addarn argued. “We should march on them at once.”

“Surely our friends at court could be prevailed upon to join us with fresh troops,” said Ser Harys. “And someone might return to Casterly Rock to raise a new host.”

Lord Tywin Lannister rose to his feet. “They have my son, “ he said once more, in a voice that cut through the babble like a sword through suet. “Leave me. All of you.”

Ever the soul of obedience, Tyrion rose to depart with the rest, but his father gave him a look. “Not you, Tyrion. Remain. And you as well, Kevan. The rest of you, out.”

Tyrion eased himself back onto the bench, startled into speechlessness. Ser Kevan crossed the room to the wine casks. “Uncle,” Tyrion called, “if you would be so kind-”

“Here.” His father offered him his cup, the wine untouched.

Now Tyrion truly was nonplussed. He drank.

Lord Tywin seated himself. “You have the right of it about Stark. Alive, we might have used Lord Eddard to forge a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun, a peace that would have given us the time we need to deal with Robert’s brothers. Dead His hand curled into a fist. “Madness. Rank madness.”

“Joff’s only a boy,” Tyrion pointed out. “At his age, I committed a few follies of my own.”

His father gave him a sharp look. “I suppose we ought to be grateful that he has not yet married a whore.”

Tyrion sipped at his wine, wondering how Lord Tywin would look if he flung the cup in his face.

“Our position is worse than you know,” his father went on. “It would seem we have a new king.”

Ser Kevan looked poleaxed. “A new-who? What have they done to Joffrey?”

The faintest flicker of distaste played across Lord Tywin’s thin lips. “Nothing... yet. My grandson still sits the Iron Throne, but the eunuch has heard whispers from the south. Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride’s father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords.”

“Those are grave tidings.” When Ser Kevan frowned, the furrows in his brow grew deep as canyons.

“My daughter commands us to ride for King’s Landing at once, to defend the Red Keep against King Renly and the Knight of Flowers.” His mouth tightened. “Commands us, mind you. In the name of the king and council.”

“How is King Joffrey taking the news?” Tyrion asked with a certain black amusement.

“Cersei has not seen fit to tell him yet,” Lord Tywin said. “She fears he might insist on marching against Renly himself.”

“With what army?” Tyrion asked. “You don’t plan to give him this one, I hope?”

“He talks of leading the City Watch,” Lord Tywin said.

“If he takes the Watch, he’ll leave the city undefended,” Ser Kevan said. “And with Lord Stannis on Dragonstone...”

“Yes.” Lord Tywin looked down at his son. “I had thought you were the one made for motley, Tyrion, but it would appear that I was wrong.”

“Why, Father,” said Tyrion, “that almost sounds like praise.” He leaned forward intently. “What of Stannis? He’s the elder, not Renly. How does he feel about his brother’s claim?”

His father frowned. “I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?” He gave an irritated shrug. “Kevan, bring us the map.”

Ser Kevan did as he was bid. Lord Tywin unrolled the leather, smoothing it flat. “Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm’s End are calling their banners.”

Tyrion smiled crookedly. “Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead.”

“I had hoped you might have more to offer us than japes, Tyrion,” Lord Tywin Lannister said.

Ser Kevan frowned over the map, forehead creasing. “Robb Stark will have Edmure Tully and the lords of the Trident with him now. Their combined power may exceed our own. And with Roose Bolton behind us... Tywin, if we remain here, I fear we might be caught between three armies.”

the key part tywin executing his plan for to never let the stark host ever link up to over power him....

“I have no intention of remaining here. We must finish our business with young Lord Stark before Renly Baratheon can march from Highgarden. Bolton does not concern me. He is a wary man, and we made him warier on the Green Fork. He will be slow to give pursuit. So... on the morrow, we make for Harrenhal. Kevan, I want Ser Addam’s outriders to screen our movements. Give him as many men as he requires, and send them out in groups of four. I will have no vanishings.”

“As you say, my lord, but... why Harrenhal? That is a grim, unlucky place. Some call it cursed.”

“Let them,” Lord Tywin said. “Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork.”

“They will burn, my lord,” Ser Kevan said, rising. “I shall give the commands.” He bowed and made for the door.

When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. “Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like-goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest.”

“Telling Shagga and Timett how to pillage is like telling a rooster how to crow,” Tyrion commented, “but I should prefer to keep them with me.” Uncouth and unruly they might be, yet the wildlings were his, and he trusted them more than any of his father’s men. He was not about to hand them over.

“Then you had best learn to control them. I will not have the city plundered.”

“The city?” Tyrion was lost. “What city would that be?”

“King’s Landing. I am sending you to court.”

It was the last thing Tyrion Lannister would ever have anticipated.

He reached for his wine, and considered for a moment as he sipped. “And what am I to do there?”

“Rule,” his father said curtly

Tyrion hooted with laughter. “My sweet sister might have a word or two to say about that!”

“Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council-our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man’s father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice.” His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. “And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench.” He pointed a finger at Tyrion’s face. “If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false...”

Tyrion knew. “Spikes,” he sighed. “Heads. Walls.”

“I see you have taken a few lessons from me.”

“More than you know, Father,” Tyrion answered quietly. He finished his wine and set the cup aside, thoughtful. A part of him was more pleased than he cared to admit. Another part was remembering the battle upriver, and wondering if he was being sent to hold the left again. “Why me?” he asked, cocking his head to one side. “Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a... bigger man?”

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. “You are my son.”

tywin gathering a new host from lannisport the problem for lannisters is that daven was left out of his father stafford to join the host......i'd quote here ur plot gift by GRRM

“And soon,” her uncle agreed. “I have not told you the worst of it, child. The men I sent west have brought back word that a new host is gathering at Casterly Rock.”

Another Lannister army. The thought made her ill. “Robb must be told at once. Who will command?”

“Ser Stafford Lannister, it’s said.” He turned to gaze out over the rivers, his red-and-blue cloak stirring in the breeze.

“Another nephew?” The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house.

“Cousin,” Ser Brynden corrected. “Brother to Lord Tywin’s late wife, so twice related. An old man and a bit of a dullard, but he has a son, Ser Daven, who is more formidable.”

“Then let us hope it is the father and not the son who takes this army into the field.”

balon looking out for himself and already made his plans for revenge on the starks if you claim tywin got lucky with balon attacking the north the you did not grasp he felt the need to pay ned stark back in kind

Aeron rode on. “One wolf is much like the other.”

“Robb has broken fealty with the Iron Throne and crowned himself King in the North. There’s war.”

“The maester’s ravens fly over salt as soon as rock. This news is old and cold.”

“It means a new day, Uncle.”

“Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.”

“They are both dead, Stark and that Robert who broke my walls with his stones. I vowed I’d live to see them both in their graves, and I have.” He grimaced. “Yet the cold and the damp still make my joints ache, as when they were alive. So what does it serve?”

“It serves.” Theon moved closer. “I bring a letter-”

“Did Ned Stark dress you like that?” his father interrupted, squinting up from beneath his robe. “Was it his pleasure to garb you in velvets and silks and make you his own sweet daughter?”

Theon felt the blood rising to his face. “I am no man’s daughter. If you mislike my garb, I will change it.”

“You will.” Throwing off the furs, Lord Balon pushed himself to his feet. He was not so tall as Theon remembered. “That bauble around your neck-was it bought with gold or iron?”

Theon touched the gold chain. He had forgotten. It has been so long... In the Old Way, women might decorate themselves with ornaments bought with coin, but a warrior wore only the jewelry he took off the corpses of enemies slain by his own hand. Paying the iron price, it was called.

“You blush red as a maid, Theon. A question was asked. Is it the gold price you paid, or the iron?”

“The gold,” Theon admitted.

His father slid his fingers under the necklace and gave it a yank so hard it was like to take Theon’s head off, had the chain not snapped first. “My daughter has taken an axe for a lover,” Lord Balon said. “I will not have my son bedeck himself like a whore.” He dropped the broken chain onto the brazier, where it slid down among the coals. “It is as I feared. The green lands have made you soft, and the Starks have made you theirs. “

“You’re wrong. Ned Stark was my gaoler, but my blood is still salt and iron.”

Lord Balon turned away to warm his bony hands over the brazier. “Yet the Stark pup sends you to me like a well-trained raven, clutching his little message.”

“There is nothing small about the letter I bear,” Theon said, “and the offer he makes is one I suggested to him.”

“This wolf king heeds your counsel, does he?” The notion seemed to amuse Lord Balon.

“He heeds me, yes. I’ve hunted with him, trained with him, shared meat and mead with him, warred at his side. I have earned his trust. He looks on me as an older brother, he-”

“No.” His father jabbed a finger at his face. “Not here, not in Pyke, not in my hearing, you will not name him brother, this son of the man who put your true brothers to the sword. Or have you forgotten Rodrik and Maron, who were your own blood?”

“I forget nothing.” Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower... but Stark would have done for them just as quick had the tide of battle chanced to sweep them together. “I remember my brothers very well,” Theon insisted. Chiefly he remembered Rodrik’s drunken cuffs and Maron’s cruel japes and endless lies. “I remember when my father was a king too.” He took out Robb’s letter and thrust it forward. “Here. Read it... Your Grace.”

Lord Balon broke the seal and unfolded the parchment. His black eyes flicked back and forth. “So the boy would give me a crown again,” he said, “and all I need do is destroy his enemies.” His thin lips twisted in a smile.

“By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth,” Theon said. “Once it falls, he’ll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin’s host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he’s been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb’s army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea. If the gods are with us, even Casterly Rock itself may fall before the Lannisters so much as realize that we are upon them.”

Lord Balon grunted. “Casterly Rock has never fallen.”

“Until now.” Theon smiled. And how sweet that will be.

His father did not return the smile. “So this is why Robb Stark sends you back to me, after so long? So you might win my consent to th-is-pl-anof his? “

“It is my plan, not Robb’s,” Theon said proudly. Mine, as the victory will be mine, and in time the crown. “I will lead the attack myself, if it please you. As my reward I would ask that you grant me Casterly Rock for my own seat, once we have taken it from the Lannisters.” With the Rock, he could hold Lannisport and the golden lands of the west. It would mean wealth and power such as House Greyjoy had never known.

“You reward yourself handsomely for a notion and a few lines of scribbling.” His father read the letter again. “The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown.” His flinty eyes lifted to meet his son’s. “He will give me a crown,” he repeated, his voice growing sharp.

“A poor choice of words, what is meant is-”

“What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away.” Lord Balon tossed the letter onto the brazier, atop the necklace. The parchment curled, blackened, and took flame.

Theon was aghast. “Have you gone mad?”

His father laid a stinging backhand across his cheek. “Mind your tongue. You are not in Winterfell now, and I am not Robb the Boy, that you should speak to me so. I am the Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind, and no man gives me a crown. I pay the iron price. I will take my crown, as Urron Redhand did five thousand years ago.”

Theon edged backward, away from the sudden fury in his father’s tone. “Take it, then,” he spat, his cheek still tingling. “Call yourself King of the Iron islands, no one will care... until the wars are over, and the victor looks about and spies the old fool perched off his shore with an iron crown on his head.”

Lord Balon laughed. “Well, at the least you are no craven. No more than I’m a fool. Do you think I gather my ships to watch them rock at anchor? I mean to carve out a kingdom with fire and sword... but not from the west, and not at the bidding of King Robb the Boy. Casterly Rock

is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum... not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended.”

Where? Theon might have asked, but by then he knew.

this is tywin:- dispatching tarly and gregor and writing very important letters to win wars

"“Until Lord Redwyne brings his fleet up, we lack the ships to assail Dragonstone. It makes no matter. Stannis Baratheon’s sun set on the Blackwater. As for Stark, the boy is still in the west, but a large force of northmen under Helman Tallhart and Robett Glover are descending toward Duskendale. I’ve sent Lord Tarly to meet them, while Ser Gregor drives up the kingsroad to cut off their retreat. Tallhart and Glover will be caught between them, with a third of Stark’s strength.”

"Lord Tywin ignored the sally. “You had best be seated. Is it wise for you to be out of your sickbed?”

“I am sick of my sickbed.” Tyrion knew how much his father despised weakness. He claimed the nearest chair. “Such pleasant chambers you have. Would you believe it, while I was dying, someone moved me to a dark little cell in Maegor’s?”

“The Red Keep is overcrowded with wedding guests. Once they depart, we will find you more suitable accommodations.”

“I rather liked these accommodations. Have you set a date for this great wedding?”

“Joffrey and Margaery shall marry on the first day of the new year, which as it happens is also the first day of the new century. The ceremony will herald the dawn of a new era.”

A new Lannister era, thought Tyrion. “Oh, bother, I fear I’ve made other plans for that day.”

“Did you come here just to complain of your bedchamber and make your lame japes? I have important letters to finish.”

“Important letters. To be sure.”

“Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens."

note Tywin not taking credit for anyones glory and again here you get to see tywin in executing a battle plan that no one gives him credit

“And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? Lands, castle, some office?”

“A little bloody gratitude would make a nice start.”

Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking. “Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter. You did as you were commanded, and I am sure it was to the best of your ability. No one denies the part you played.”

“The part I played?” What nostrils Tyrion had left must surely have flared. “I saved your bloody city, it seems to me.”

“Most people seem to feel that it was my attack on Lord Stannis’s flank that turned the tide of battle. Lords Tyrell, Rowan, Redwyne, and Tarly fought nobly as well, and I’m told it was your sister Cersei who set the pyromancers to making the wildfire that destroyed the Baratheon fleet.”

"“What I want...” His throat felt raw and tight. What did he want? More than you can ever give me, Father. “Pod tells me that Littlefinger’s been made Lord of Harrenhal.”

“An empty title, so long as Roose Bolton holds the castle for Robb Stark, yet Lord Baelish was desirous of the honor. He did us good service in the matter of the Tyrell marriage. A Lannister pays his debts.”

The Tyrell marriage had been Tyrion’s notion, in point of fact, but it would seem churlish to try to claim that now. “That title may not be as empty as you think,” he warned. “Littlefinger does

nothing without good reason. But be that as it may. You said something about paying debts, I believe?”

“And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? Lands, castle, some office?”"

Acknowledging tyrion

“Your chain was a clever stroke, and crucial to our victory. Is that what you wanted to hear? I am told we have you to thank for our Dornish alliance as well. You may be pleased to learn that Myrcella has arrived safely at Sunspear.

Tywin already laying plans for the second seige of riverun

“What do we know of Stark’s plans and movements?” asked Mathis Rowan, ever blunt and to the point.

“He has run back to Riverrun with his plunder, abandoning the castles he took in the west,” announced Lord Tywin. “Our cousin Ser Daven is reforming the remnants of his late father’s army at Lannisport. When they are ready he shall join Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth. Assoon as the Stark boy starts north, Ser Forley and Ser Daven will descend on Riverrun.”

soon as the Stark boy starts north, Ser Forley and Ser Daven will descend on Riverrun.”

[greywindsrage]

I think you need to read more between the Tywin lines. Too perfect? Jon Arryn arranged the marriage to Cersei which means Tywin wasn't even competent enough of a lord to negotiate a single marriage contract for any of his children. Let me copy and paste something I just posted in another thread.

I know we hear a few times that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms while Hand but we have reason to doubt how true that might be. Aerys turned down the marriage with Cersei which places a big question about how much influence Tywin wielded over him. There is also the Defiance at Duskendale. We know what Tywin's solution would have been (Rains of Castamere) yet Aerys chose a course in direct opposition to Tywin's signature solution. Tywin still may have been quite influential in ruling or he may just simply have been an attack dog Aerys kept around like Tywin keeps Gregor. It is hard to say for certain with the evidence available, but the claims that he ruled the Seven Kingdoms are at best highly exaggerated. We also have the example of the Blackwater where we see Tywin publicly being given the lion share of the credit for something he had precious little to do with.

Tywin became Hand and married Joanna before his father died. So Joanna was the real day to day ruler of Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. She was said to rule at home and since Tywin was Hand and mostly in KL their entire married life there is probably a great deal of truth in that. After Joanna's death Tywin remained Hand until about a year before Robert's Rebellion when Jaime joined the KG. Kevan probably took Joanna's place as castellan of the Rock. Just based on his biography Tywin never really sat as the full time ruler of anything until a year before the rebellion. Sure he was Lord of Casterly Rock, but he wouldn't be much more involved in ruling it than Ned was in ruling Winterfell while he was Hand.

Tyrion notes at least twice that Kevan doesn't have thoughts his father didn't have first. After Tywin dies we learn that Kevan is quite competent on his own-- so much so that Varys kills him. We don't know how involved Kevan was with Tywin's decisions. He could be the whole brains of the operation or he could have played the part of the lickspittle that Tyrion seems to see. We aren't given enough information to know. Tywin does make some pretty awful choices. He gives LF the Riverlands and then his blessing to go marry Lysa even after Tyrion warns him the man can't be trusted. He's willingly handing LF control over 2 of the 7 kingdoms (complete with a Tully to secure his Riverlands claim) in the midst of an ongoing civil war. (and this is LF's reward for arranging the assassination of Joffrey.) Just because LF hasn't backstabbed the Lannisters yet with the dagger they gave him doesn't make giving the Riverlands and blessing his marriage to Lysa any less of an extraordinarily bad idea.

His going to war at the end of GoT wasn't well thought through either. If Robert lived he would have lost. Dorne was in all probability going to be his enemy. If Renly and Stannis didn't infight he would have lost. If the Vale joined in he would have lost (imagine a host under the Blackfish attacking him in the rear while he engaged Roose Bolton.) If Robb was able to utilize Theon to bring in the Iron Islands he would have lost. These were all likelihoods or at least reasonable knowable possibilities that he had no contingency plan to deal with.

After the Red Wedding and Tyrion's trial Tywin becomes very concerned about not offending Dorne for fear that Stannis will gamble on a Dornish alliance. It is the Red Wedding that enables Stannis to gamble on the North. Tywin expected that to be a finishing blow to end all opposition but it hardly worked out that way. He also didn't account for Jon Snow. There is a living "son" of Eddard Stark still in the North. The North reacting in an extremely negative way to the Red Wedding and rallying behind Jon is not exactly an unforseeable outcome after the murder of all the other Stark children. Tywin didn't exactly dot his i's and cross his t's on that one either.

So we have ample evidence of bad decisions by Tywin during the books and reason to question the full veracity of the reputation he has prior to the start of the books. Both Littlefinger and Varys clearly prefer a Lannister on the throne with Tywin as Hand to a Stannis and that in and of itself is very telling.

I agree with most of what you said but remember that Tywin never wanted to go to war..Joffrey caused that. If Ned had lived , Tywin would have only Stannis and Renly to deal with. He also knew their personalities. Renly is arrogant and spoilt and Stannis does not bend. Plus he knew The North would seek vengeance against the The Freys simply for breaking the code of hospitality.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I agree with most of what you said but remember that Tywin never wanted to go to war..Joffrey caused that. If Ned had lived , Tywin would have only Stannis and Renly to deal with. He also knew their personalities. Renly is arrogant and spoilt and Stannis does not bend. Plus he knew The North would seek vengeance against the The Freys simply for breaking the code of hospitality.

... except that Tywin started the war by attacking the Riverlands. That brought the North right into it, the Vale very likely and probably the Ironborn. And King Bob would probably back Ned Stark.

[David Selig]

I agree with most of what you said but remember that Tywin never wanted to go to war..Joffrey caused that. If Ned had lived , Tywin would have only Stannis and Renly to deal with.

What? Tywin lead a full scale invasion in the Riverlands while Ned was alive, and he fought the Northern army lead by Roose before he knew Ned was dead.

[ab aeterno]

What? Tywin lead a full scale invasion in the Riverlands while Ned was alive, and he fought the Northern army lead by Roose before he knew Ned was dead.

Yes, but that army was supposed to lose to him, to in my opinion, it's not a particularly convincing display.

[Scipio Africanus]

@ ed lannister

I appreciate your effort but your post is confusing and difficult to respond to. I admit my post could've used some cleanup too though.

I think the jest of what you're saying is that Tywin did have strategic control over several events during the Wot5K. Perhaps he did, in the case of Roose Bolton sending Glover and Karstark with Robb's infantry to Duskendale. But other than that...I disagree.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

@ ed lannister

I appreciate your effort but your post is confusing and difficult to respond to. I admit my post could've used some cleanup too though.

I think the jest of what you're saying is that Tywin did have strategic control over several events during the Wot5K. Perhaps he did, in the case of Roose Bolton sending Glover and Karstark with Robb's infantry to Duskendale. But other than that...I disagree.

Personally I think Tywin did a great job of stripping Robb from his allies and weakening him that way. He strips off Roose with the promise of the North, get's him to remove a lot of the infantry, strips off the Freys by arranging for Robb to break his marriage promise.

He also takes full advantage of the opportunity that Renly's death presents him by bagging the Tyrells. I mean if you look at it right up until the point Tywin get's killed he's effectively won the war. A little bit of mopping up Stannis' last bit of support and a little bit of work in the Riverlands but that's it. OK he's had some set backs and some of his captains did some of the work for him but he can't be everywhere at once.

OK he gets killed by his son but let's be honest the idea that his son locked in a prison cell is going to appear in front of him at night, with a crossbow, having got passed all his guards, and kill him is pretty difficult to think ahead.

[ab aeterno]

Personally I think Tywin did a great job of stripping Robb from his allies and weakening him that way. He strips off Roose with the promise of the North, get's him to remove a lot of the infantry, strips off the Freys by arranging for Robb to break his marriage promise.

As discussed previously though, we don't know whether Tywin or Roose/Frey instigated this. Even then he was only taking advantage of circumstances.

He also takes full advantage of the opportunity that Renly's death presents him by bagging the Tyrells.

This was Tyrion and LF's work.

I mean if you look at it right up until the point Tywin get's killed he's effectively won the war. A little bit of mopping up Stannis' last bit of support and a little bit of work in the Riverlands but that's it. OK he's had some set backs and some of his captains did some of the work for him but he can't be everywhere at once.

His side has almost won the war but more due to Roose, Tyrion and the Tyrells than anything Tywin did, IMO.

[Scipio Africanus]

He also takes full advantage of the opportunity that Renly's death presents him by bagging the Tyrells.

This was Tyrion and LF's work.

This is the problem I have with book Tywin. He gloryhogged it all the same and claimed it was his genius handlings but it wasn't. What I really don't get is that everyone inbook and on this forum believe it as well. Poor Tyrion. :(

[mcb]

Personally I think Tywin did a great job of stripping Robb from his allies and weakening him that way. He strips off Roose with the promise of the North, get's him to remove a lot of the infantry, strips off the Freys by arranging for Robb to break his marriage promise.

Nope. It was Robb's own monumental act of stupidity. Tywin couldn't have invented that, because no one could. He only took advantage of it post factum.

He also takes full advantage of the opportunity that Renly's death presents him by bagging the Tyrells.

Nope. Tyrion does, with no Tywin's participation whatsoever.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Nope. It was Robb's own monumental act of stupidity. Tywin couldn't have invented that, because no one could. He only took advantage of it post factum.

Isn't it basically confirmed that Tywin worked with the Sybell Spicer to set Rob up? Seems a bit strange to reward them if it's just Robb's stupidity.

Nope. Tyrion does, with no Tywin's participation whatsoever.

Well Tywin turns up with the Tyrell host so you can assume that he had some part of it.

He can't be everywhere but Tywin works well. At least in my opinion.

[ab aeterno]

Isn't it basically confirmed that Tywin worked with the Sybell Spicer to set Rob up? Seems a bit strange to reward them if it's just Robb's stupidity.

This is still quite contentious and we don't have any definitive confirmation either way. Having said that, it would still be in Robb's court for marrying Jeyne and Tywin wouldn't have been able to predict Robb's getting injured like that particularly easily.

Well Tywin turns up with the Tyrell host so you can assume that he had some part of it.

He did, he kept the Tyrells company while they marched to KL. Tyrion and LF orchestrated the deal and worked with the Tyrells though, Tywin did not.

[Scipio Africanus]

Isn't it basically confirmed that Tywin worked with the Sybell Spicer to set Rob up? Seems a bit strange to reward them if it's just Robb's stupidity.

Well Tywin turns up with the Tyrell host so you can assume that he had some part of it.

He can't be everywhere but Tywin works well.

First part, When Edmure pulled troops from the Twins it opened up communication between Walder Heffner and Roose Bolton (who was staying at the Twins at that time I believe) and Tywin. Now, it is not yet clear who initiated communication with who. However, we know that the Late Lord Frey was everything but loyal towards their overlords, the Tullys. It might've been that Tywin asked Walder to leave his alliance with Robb, in exchange for various marriages. Walder might've told Tywin, that he already had a sweet deal (basically, his grandchildren would be royalty) and that although tempted, he was loath to miss an opportunity like that.

Tywin could've then found out that Robb was at the Crag and wounded. He then could've (somehow, considering Robb at the Crag and the territory between Tywin and the Crag was full of enemies) told Sybell Spicer to prostitute her daughter, so Walder would leave his alliance and take up Tywin's offers.

Second part. Almost as soon as Tyrion hits KL, he tells the small council he wants to shoal up alliances against Stan and Robb. Renly by now has been murdered, freeing up Marge Tyrell. Although Sansa is officially betrothed to Joff, the Lannisters already knew that it wouldn't happen. Tyrion sends LF to Bitterbridge after some discussion on who'd go, where after Renly died the Tyrells went to. Although Stan got a lot of Storm Lords and some lords in the Reach on board, the Tyrells didn't take up Stan's banner.

It was LF who succesfully negotiated the marriage alliance. Mace Tyrell then sent his troops towards KL and Tywin, who had been marching back west because of Robb's threat, joined them. He was able to do so, since Edmure delayed most of his army going west. Tywin only commanded a wing of the new Lannister/Tyrell army. The day was won however, because of Tyrion's chain link accross Blackwater trapping Stan's fleet, and setting it on fire. On land, the day was won by LF and Garlan Tyrell. LF hatched the plan that Garlan wear Renly's old armour, dismaying Stan's land forces and even convincing some his troops to join up with the Tyrells.

Although Tywin gloryhogged all of the above, he had little to do with the victory of Blackwater in the end.

[mcb]

Isn't it basically confirmed that Tywin worked with the Sybell Spicer to set Rob up?

Did he send a newsraven all around the Westerlands: in case Robb Stark gets seriously injured storming your castle, simultaneously gets grave news from home, and you happen to have a young unwed daughter, make him defecate on his royal word? Doesn't really sound plausible.

Seems a bit strange to reward them if it's just Robb's stupidity.

For the alleged contraception provided by Sybell, and for the cooperation in preparing and executing the Red Wedding, everything after Robb had decided to destroy his kingdom. After the war, everyone on the winning side got a reward bigger or smaller, fitting with his contribution. Littlefinger got the Riverlands and Harrenhal; if the Spicers really had engineered the marriage, their prize would be at least of the same magnitude (Storm's End and the Stormlands seem fitting), not Castamere and Gerion's bastard daughter's hand.

Well Tywin turns up with the Tyrell host so you can assume that he had some part of it.

We know what part he played: he had sent Tyrion to KL, that's it. We know how the alliance was conceived: on Tyrion's own initiative, without even consulting Tywin.

[The Red Pope]

I have to admit that I once admired Tywin greatly. I thought he was everything that the other characters claimed and more. But that was all before I read the books and met the original Tywin. Then it all melted away like snow in a furnace. But I still love Charles Dance's impression and he is now defenetly one of my favorite actors.

[Scipio Africanus]

Then it all melted away like snow in a furnace. But I still love Charles Dance's impression and he is now defenetly one of my favorite actors.

I think this is the problem. People who only watch the show will have an entirely different view from those who carefully read the book. I daresay Tywin is the character where they took the most liberties from what I've read so far.

But as I've typed before, it is good that the producers did so. For book Tywin is a real jerk. And it doesn't put the Lannister-Stark conflict in a neutral light. Or make Tywin all that human...

[greywindsrage]

... except that Tywin started the war by attacking the Riverlands. That brought the North right into it, the Vale very likely and probably the Ironborn. And King Bob would probably back Ned Stark.

Robb didn't join the war until Ned died.

[Summer is Ending]

Robb didn't join the war until Ned died.

Ned was still alive at the time of Whispering Wood. They got news of his execution somewhere after that and before arriving in Riverrun.

[Gurkhal]

I may have missed a post or two adressed to me but I hope I have not.

I agree Jaime is not so bad but untested really politically. Hes House Lannisters only hope IMO, unless one of the lesser Lannisters like Daven can pick up. Tyrion did extremely well, but i think its only fair to note that he did receive the help of both Varys and LF during his reign as Hand. How would he have faired had they opposed him?

In this I think that you make some good points. And of course things would have been more difficult it Littlefinger and Varys decided that they wanted the Lannisters dead right now. But on the other hands I think its a wrong word to say that Tyrion had "help" from Varys and Littlefinger but some other word would be more fitting.

But Tywin did precisely none of these things. The Freys, Jaime, Tyrion, Roose, the Tyrells and Randyll Taryl were responsible for all the victories. Tywin's biggest contribution was rubber stamping Walder Frey's revenge.

I think that Tywin holding together things and at Duskendale Gregor Clegane did lead Lannister troops to fall the Northmen in the back so I think that you should add Clegane to that list. But it comes down to how you view things. You could say that the leader don't do the work because he's not physically wielding the sword but on the other hand you can give him the credit for putting men in place where they will wield their swords to great effect. And that's how I view it and why I think that Tywin was winning, even though he did not physically make the actions themselves.

[ab aeterno]

I think that Tywin holding together things and at Duskendale Gregor Clegane did lead Lannister troops to fall the Northmen in the back so I think that you should add Clegane to that list. But it comes down to how you view things. You could say that the leader don't do the work because he's not physically wielding the sword but on the other hand you can give him the credit for putting men in place where they will wield their swords to great effect. And that's how I view it and why I think that Tywin was winning, even though he did not physically make the actions themselves.

But again, this is a tainted victory because Roose intentionally sent this troops into a trap.