Was Tywin Lannister a little TOO Perfect?

[Frey Pie]

Going with the Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory (which I support). Tywin was one of the smartest and most clever characters in Westeros, it's certainly possible that he knew Oberyn had poisoned him, and realized in his death there would be strong case for Tyrion becoming the Lord of Casterly Rock.

Tywin being dumb enough to goad Tyrion while he has the crossbow and has an intent to shoot him just seems out of character to me.

Tywin wanted Tyrion to kill him, because not only would it ease his passing due to the poison he recieved from Oberyn, but it would certainly prevent Tyrion from becoming the Lord of Casterly Rock and in Tywin's mind preventing the Lannister House from becoming a laughing stock in Westeros again, therefore protecting the legacy that Tywin left behind for House Lannister.

Really?? Tywin knew he was being poisoned, went for a dump, and decided to goad his son into killing him to both end his pain and make sure Tyrion would get CR? Even though he could have ordered Tyrions death ages ago and instead planned to give him to the Watch? Some stroke of luch for Tywin that Tyrion waddled his way through the walls to him. Ok

[Where Boars Glow]

Nobody but Roose and Walder delivered themselves to him. Same with Sybell who was worried for her family. Sure Tywin did the deals but not the planning. If the Crakehalls and Braxs offered there help to Robb and murdered Tywin in return for Robb promising them land and gold i wouldnt say Robb fooled Tywin. Id say Tywin was betrayed and Robb took advantage. Same goes for the opposite. So no Tywin didnt out-think Robb

You are still arguing something we can't prove that the brain trust of Walder Frey and Roose Bolton came up with this sceme and brought it to Tywin afterwards.

[ab aeterno]

Which is why she recieved the least. I think she also had a hand in setting up Rob. It's not rocket science. Why not just have some serving wench taking care of rob....Why send him your young nubile daughter to tend his wounds and let 16 year old nature take it's course if you aren't making a play

I think it would be quite a reach for Tywin to arrange this whole thing in case Robb gets injured. Having said that, as he was at the Crag for a long time, it is possible that Tywin would have arranged for something, but only if Robb's men were stupid enough to allow the Maester to send letters to somewhere Tywin could receive them. And I'm not even sure if Tywin was in a position to receive letters.

[Where Boars Glow]

Really?? Tywin knew he was being poisoned, went for a dump, and decided to goad his son into killing him to both end his pain and make sure Tyrion would get CR? Even though he could have ordered Tyrions death ages ago and instead planned to give him to the Watch? Some stroke of luch for Tywin that Tyrion waddled his way through the walls to him. Ok

I admit...thin...but fun

[ab aeterno]

You are still arguing something we can't prove that the brain trust of Walder Frey and Roose Bolton came up with this sceme and brought it to Tywin afterwards.

There is nothing to prove or even suggest really that it was Tywin either. Tywin's conversation with Tyrion about having important business to sort out (that it is implied is related to Robb,) comes after Roose has already set some of these things in motion.

[Frey Pie]

Which is why she recieved the least. I think she also had a hand in setting up Rob. It's not rocket science. Why not just have some serving wench taking care of rob....Why send him your young nubile daughter to tend his wounds and let 16 year old nature take it's course if you aren't making a play

How would Tywin predict everything? Yes Robb would fall for the daughter of an enemy. Yes theyd get married. Yes Walder and Roose would come up with a plan and yes Robb predictably would offer Edmure as compensation and bring all his loyal bannermen with him to the wedding. Theres no way this was his plan

It happened naturally and Tywin took advantage of the situation

[Where Boars Glow]

I think it would be quite a reach for Tywin to arrange this whole thing in case Robb gets injured. Having said that, as he was at the Crag for a long time, it is possible that Tywin would have arranged for something, but only if Robb's men were stupid enough to allow the Maester to send letters to somewhere Tywin could receive them. And I'm not even sure if Tywin was in a position to receive letters.

You think Tywin....who had varys....didn't have a man inside the castle...of his own bannerman? Someone he could get a message to?

[Where Boars Glow]

There is nothing to prove or even suggest really that it was Tywin either. Tywin's conversation with Tyrion about having important business to sort out (that it is implied is related to Robb,) comes after Roose has already set some of these things in motion.

Correct...as i said we are both speculating :)

[ab aeterno]

You think Tywin....who had varys....didn't have a man inside the castle...of his own bannerman? Someone he could get a message to?

Where was Tywin?

Who could he get a message to in the Crag who would be able to leave the castle or send a raven?

Tywin didn't have Varys for most of this time.

I suspect the Northmen would have been very suspicious of letters coming from KL.

[Frey Pie]

You are still arguing something we can't prove that the brain trust of Walder Frey and Roose Bolton came up with this sceme and brought it to Tywin afterwards.

Im actually still arguing against your initial statement that Tywin out thought Robb, which isnt true

[Where Boars Glow]

How would Tywin predict everything? Yes Robb would fall for the daughter of an enemy. Yes theyd get married. Yes Walder and Roose would come up with a plan and yes Robb predictably would offer Edmure as compensation and bring all his loyal bannermen with him to the wedding. Theres no way this was his plan

It happened naturally and Tywin took advantage of the situation

I could buy Rob liked the girl......but at that point I think Tywin was the one pulling the strings. Yes it was a lucky break...but then he pushed things in his favor.

[Summer is Ending]

“I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war.

Frey came to Twyin.

[Where Boars Glow]

Where was Tywin?

Who could he get a message to in the Crag who would be able to leave the castle or send a raven?

Tywin didn't have Varys for most of this time.

I suspect the Northmen would have been very suspicious of letters coming from KL.

Not ravens....on foot. You think knowone has ever snuck a message into a castle before. especially one that was your bannermen and probably had friendlies already inside....heck even a servant who wanted a big sack of gold. :)

[ab aeterno]

I could buy Rob liked the girl......but at that point I think Tywin was the one pulling the strings. Yes it was a lucky break...but then he pushed things in his favor.

I could see Tywin being able to settle this once they were married/once Robb trusted the Westerlings, just not before this. Even then I'm not entirely sure of the logistics.

[ab aeterno]

Not ravens....on foot. You think knowone has ever snuck a message into a castle before. especially one that was your bannermen and probably had friendlies already inside....heck even a servant who wanted a big sack of gold. :)

Not a castle that is full of enemy soldiers including the BF. Not likely to make that stupid of a mistake, at least not until the marriage had been agreed. I could see Tywin orchestrating this part after they married/agreed to marry, just not from the beginning.

[Where Boars Glow]

“I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war.

Frey came to Twyin.

This quote makes it sound very much liek Tywin did somethign smart? How does this prove he made a bad strategic move?

[Where Boars Glow]

Not a castle that is full of enemy soldiers including the BF. Not likely to make that stupid of a mistake, at least not until the marriage had been agreed. I could see Tywin orchestrating this part after they married/agreed to marry, just not from the beginning.

Like i said I would buy that Tywin didn't get into it until after Rob fell in with the young lady by nature...then saw Frey was pissed and put his feelers out to see if it could turn to his advantage....Frey says I'm going to kill him....Tywin says if you do....I'll give you the Riverlands.....how will we make sure to get all the generals......lets get Bolton in and offer the north.....Bolton says great.....heads on pikes......done

[ab aeterno]

Like i said I would buy that Tywin didn't get into it until after Rob fell in with the young lady by nature...then saw Frey was pissed and put his feelers out to see if it could turn to his advantage....Frey says I'm going to kill him....Tywin says if you do....I'll give you the Riverlands.....how will we make sure to get all the generals......lets get Bolton in and offer the north.....Bolton says great.....heads on pikes......done

Personally it seems more likely to me that Bolton was already aware of how that marriage could collapse Robb's entire war effort, and I think it more likely that Roose moved first with the Freys after the marriage. He was sharing a castle with them, after all, and sharing secret letters with his "wife."

[Frey Pie]

I could buy Rob liked the girl......but at that point I think Tywin was the one pulling the strings. Yes it was a lucky break...but then he pushed things in his favor.

I dont think it can be argued that Robb liked the girl and she him. Plenty of textual evidence for both

This quote makes it sound very much liek Tywin did somethign smart? How does this prove he made a bad strategic move?

Nobodies saying it was a bad strategy, although im not convinced the benefits of it short term outweigh the longterm negatives for all three major houses guilty

I still dont see how Tywin could orchestrate all of it, and predict each and every outcome so perfectly. Hed have to have been able to predict the future

[Frey Pie]

Personally it seems more likely to me that Bolton was already aware of how that marriage could collapse Robb's entire war effort, and I think it more likely that Roose moved first with the Freys after the marriage. He was sharing a castle with them, after all, and sharing secret letters with his "wife."

Not to mention the whole Jaime Lannister dinner