Was Tywin Lannister a little TOO Perfect?

[Scipio Africanus]

the point was that he fulfiled the justice tyrion promised the way he saw fit........for 17 yrs the martells knew tywin ordered the deaths of the children and they plotted all they could to bring him down and tywin himself knew that they knew it was him who sent amory and gregor... but he was never going to let them have their way by giving them an excuse to rebel openly coz of not fulfilling the said justice they sought .oberyn clearly showed that the martells wanted the destruction of the lannister family and gregor was never going to be the end of the justice they sought....and tywin knew that....all he wanted was their fealty offer amory for the deaths and he tried to further sooth over the martells by offering cersei as a match to oberyn. At no point did he ever use bully tactics with his dealings with the martells......and even if the martells had rebuffed him with a rebellion he already in his corner had the power of the stormlands,westerlands,crownlands,the reach, and the remaining powerful houses in the north and riverlands on his side....he had the advantage over the martells.......(i assume the quest for vengeance was doran sending quentyn to woo dany and her dragons)

the martells would just suck up whatever was served to them...

Yes, you're saying it yourself, Tywin thought he could tell them whatever he wanted and even if they retched it out he could bully them into submission.

ps it wouldn't have stopped the Martells plotting against Tywin. And it didn't.

I would say beyond that he had a tendancy to be VERY good at looking at the broad picture.....but not the long term picture. Which in the end was his undoing.

The problem with book Tywin is that took the achievements of others (LF, Varys, Tarly) and totally gloryhogged it, and even more astonishing everyone around him inbook praised him for it too. Not only is it highly annoying - it isn't true either.

If you look at roughly what happened in the Wot5K:

- Cercei has Bobby B have an "accident" by telling Lancel to spike Bob's wine - no Tywin involvement here

- Cercei grabs power in KL, Renly flees, Stan had already fled, Eddard is captured - no Tywin involvement here, it was LF who sold the GCs to Cercei, and good fortune

- Tywin starts to raid the Riverlands, though not under his banners - Tywin's work

- Before Eddard is disposed, he orders Beric Dondarrion to deal with the raiders, which turns out to be a missed opportunity as LF and Varys point out as Eddard should've sent Loras Tyrell, not only that but Eddard sends most of his personal strength along with Beric - no Tywin involvement here, and good fortune

- Tywin orders mr. Mountain, his favourite pet, to either capture or kill Eddard (Tywin assumes Eddard would ride out personally, but Jamie spoiled that plan)

- Edmure and his bannermen, amazingly miss that Tywin is building up troops at their borders, and coventiently lets his bannermen spread out their troops (not to mention, not raise more troops to match Tywin's build up - no Tywin involvement here, pure idiocy on the part of Edmure and a massive plot gift by Martin

- Cat captures Tyrion, giving Jamie an excuse to attack Eddard in KL, crippling him and limiting Eddard's movements - no Tywin involvement here, good fortune

- Tywin invades the Riverlands with most of his troops and bowls over Riverland troops piecemeal - Tywin work

- Tywin blocks any potential threat from the North while covering KL, and sends Jamie to invest Riverrun while Stafford Lannisters raises more troops at the Golden Tooth - Tywin's work, actually the only good militairy movement he personally made in the Wot5K

- Joff has Eddard executed, forcing Tywin to send someone to KL and rule over him and Cercei, he grudgingly sends his dwarf son - yes it was his decision, but the wording in Tywin's letter was unfortunate and immediately caused a rift between Tyrion and Cercei

- Robb sneaks by his position on the King's road thanks to his new alliance with the frickle Freys, and takes Jamie with his pants down (Jamie's conduct as a commander is pretty poor here) - Tywin is caught by surprise because he totally underestimates his opponent, something which oddly would last till Robb's death

- Tywin wins a feinted nothern attack led by Roose Bolton - a pyrric victory considering he lost much of the army besieging Riverrun

- Tywin decides that while he still needs to cover KL, Robb should be dealth with first, but that Robb is a stupid boy and surrounded by stupid people so he'd have no problem in getting Robb to attack him at Harrenhal - a severer mistake as it left the initiative to all his enemies, and only through good fortune and plot gifts this was not punished

- Robb decides rightly to ignore Tywin's position at Harrenhal and does the only sensible thing, bring the war to Tywin's lands, Robb's succesfully circemvents the Golden Tooth and defeats Stafford Lannister's army, basically leaving the Westlands open - a mistake by Tywin here for not keeping up the pressure and opening up his lands for invasion

- Balon Greyjoy goes idiot and doesn't want to do the obvious thing - sack Lannisport (which was lightly defended I gather) to bankroll his further schemes, but he decided he wants the North (how he ever thought to conquer it entirely is beyond any rational thought, considering the number of troops involved) - no involvement by Tywin here, massive plot gift by Martin and highly fortunate

- Stan has Renly murdered through bloodmagic, as Cercei later mentions in her POV this was highly fortunate as Renly would've far more easily gathered support from Westeros' nobles - no Tywin involvement here, plot gift by Martin

- Stan decides to go to Storm's End first instead of KL, which wasn't fully prepared yet for a siege - no Tywin involvement and good fortune

- While Robb is in the Westlands, Edmure decided he needs some glory as well and pulls troops from the Twins and gives Roose Bolton an independant command, opening up communication possibilities - no Tywin involvement here and good fortune

- Tywin somehow hears Robb has been wounded at the Crag and he somehow manages to plot with Sybell Spicer to prostitute Jeyne so Robb would marry her and break his alliance with the Freys - a good political move, but based on fortune

- Tywin opens up communication with the Freys and Boltons - a good move, but fortunate that they would be so willing to betray Robb, yet he did guess their nature correctly

- Tywin, knowing Stan is at Storm's end, decides to leave Harrenhal finally and go to the Westlands to trap Robb, but elements of his army are delayed as Edmure attacks him, ruining an ambush Robb and the Blackfish planned - Tywin had no clue and would've walked straight into a trap, highly fortunate

- Tyrion meanwhile shoals up support with the Tyrells and the Martells, by sending LF to Bitterbridge to negotiate a marriage pact between Joff and Marge, and by sending Myrcella to Dorne - no Tywin involvement here

- Tywin is now able to ignore the Starks for now, especially considering the Ironborn invasion of the North (plot gift) and being no other threat then Stan, he can join most of his army with the massive Tyrell army, however he leads only one wing - limited Tywin involvement here

- Tyrion has meanwhile been busy at the defenses, sending most of his own troops to the king's wood to harrass Stan's vanguard, and by having a chain made to span accross Blackwater, and by ordering large batches of wildfire - no Tywin involvement here

- Stan decides not to take command of the fleet, but to leave it to some (inexperienced?) Florent who makes a massive clown move not to scout Blackwater when the battles starts - unforced error by Stan, no Tywin involvement

- LF meanwhile convinces Garlan Tyrell to wear Renly's old armour, to dismay Stan's forces and to convince them to bend the knee to Joff, Stan is spanked back accross the water to Dragonstone - no Tywin involvement here

- Roose Bolton meanwhile takes in Harrenhal, after the weasel soup incident, and is now able to fully help Tywin in betraying the North - no Tywin involvement

- Roose Bolton sends Glover and Karstark with a lot of the North's infantry to Duskendale, where Tarly is waiting with a host of Tyrell troops, and results in the loss of a third of Robb's infantry - limited Tywin involvement here

- Robb returns from the Westlands and turns north to face the Ironborn and Walder Frey, but he is subsequently murdered at his uncles wedding during the RW incident, and Edmure is captured - a politcal victory here for Tywin

- Balon is killed by a FM sent by his brother Euron Greyjoy - no Tywin involvement here.

And this concludes the first part of the Wot5K. As we can see Tywin really didn't do all that much other then get defeated in the field and conspiring with the most untrustworthy houses in Westeros to a murder. All else was fortune and the work of others.

On a final note I'd say Tywin actually did constantly think long term - he just didn't see the bigger picture (like how the Martells were plotting, the Tyrell involvement in Joff's death, the Ironborn, the Vale, the political situation in the North). He thought he could bully everyone into submission and his house would live on for a thousend years with a few marriages and some threats despite that he knew he made scores of enemies.

[Where Boars Glow]

and to add insult to injury aerys was his friend. And after dusken dale in need of help. No wonder he his paranioic shizophrenia got the better of him

Aerys tried to shine him on with his wife and said your kids can't marry my kids because your a servant not a friend? I'm going to marry them to the dornish instead just to spite you.

[Toos]

Aerys tried to shine him on with his wife and said your kids can't marry my kids because your a servant not a friend? I'm going to marry them to the dornish instead just to spite you.

Actually, marriage between Rhaegar and Elia was good political move. Dorne is part of Seven Kingdoms thanks to marriage between Targs and Martells, if they decide that they would be better independent, Aerys couldn't use force againts Dorne because it would be useless. So with this marriage Dorne had reason to stay as part of Seven Kingdoms. Aerys gain more from pact with Dorne than with Tywin.

I think if some from Tywin's bannermen suggested marriage between his heir and Cersei, Tywin's answer would be similar to Aerys'.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Aerys tried to shine him on with his wife and said your kids can't marry my kids because your a servant not a friend? I'm going to marry them to the dornish instead just to spite you.

actually he might have meant: this girl is no fit queen. and it doesn't make his choice any unwiser

[Dimadick]

So basically the guy never makes any mistakes and is able to plan extremely intricate stuff way a head of time (Red Wedding).

The only flaw he has in the series is hubris which leads him to getting beat by Robb Stark a few times but he still beats Robb in the end.

I mean even when Tywin was younger he knew EXACTLY how and why Jon Connington would fail when it was announced that JonCon would become the new hand of the king.

While I like Tywin, I think diplomacy was his weakest point.

*Joanna built a proper alliance with Dorne, Tywin blew it. And caused enmity for the foreseeable future.

*Tytos is responsible for the Lannister connections in the Riverlands (particularlyFreys), Tywin simply inherited them. His own efforts for an alliance with the Tullys were ineffectual. And even the Freys at first turned against him.

*Starks distrusted him long before he actually moved against them.

*Arryns distrusted him, even when he was supposed to be one of their key allies.

*The Baratheons pretty much hated him.

*The Greyjoys seem to have feared him, but held no love for him.

With the exception of a last-minute alliance with the Tyrells, he had his House diplomatically isolated and threatened from all sides.

[Frey Pie]

While I like Tywin, I think diplomacy was his weakest point.

*Joanna built a proper alliance with Dorne, Tywin blew it. And caused enmity for the foreseeable future.

*Tytos is responsible for the Lannister connections in the Riverlands (particularlyFreys), Tywin simply inherited them. His own efforts for an alliance with the Tullys were ineffectual. And even the Freys at first turned against him.

*Starks distrusted him long before he actually moved against them.

*Arryns distrusted him, even when he was supposed to be one of their key allies.

*The Baratheons pretty much hated him.

*The Greyjoys seem to have feared him, but held no love for him.

With the exception of a last-minute alliance with the Tyrells, he had his House diplomatically isolated and threatened from all sides.

Never seen it put that way before-good points

[Dimadick]

Thanks to the idiocy of Edmure and his bannermen who totally were unprepared (for some reason, read Martin plot gifts) and raised only a fraction in manpower available in the Riverlands.

That is not idiocy. You can't mobilize your entire available manpower at a moment's notice. Not in the Middle Ages, not in our age, probably never. It takes time to mobilize them, more time to provide even basic training, and even more time and effort to actually equip and provide supplies to them.

The Rivermen still had a fighting chance at the beginning. The Lannisters had also failed to mobilize a large force, the vanguard under Gregor Clegane was rather small. Until Edmure chose to split his army into small units, tasked with defending every village and holdfast. Guess he never heard of strength in numbers. These small units were easy pickings once Lannister reinforcements arrived.

[Dimadick]

he was robbed of jaime when he was in the process of making good match to the tullys

The diplomatic deal with the Tullys made a lot of sense. Tywin forgot, however, to sell the deal to Jaime himself. From Jaime's perspective, he believed he was going to marry the wrong sister:

"She [Lysa] had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles, with none of Cersei's fire. Her older sister [Catelyn] had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was promised to some northern boy[brandon Stark], the heir of Winterfell].

[Lion of Judah]

It's a point but i would also suggest meeting Rob in the field made little sense. He had time on his side and other enemies beyond Rob where as Rob only had to worry about having enough men left to beat Tywin. If Tywin beats rob in the field he would have had to immeadiately turn around and deal with the winner of Stannis vs Renly. Going toe to toe with another large army first and weakening yourself doesn't seem that sensible. It seems prudant not cowardly....which also goes against pompus.

It would have been smarter to not piss so many people off at once. As the matriarch of his family he did a horrible job of keeping that daughter and grandson of his in check.

[Castel]

It would have been smarter to not piss so many people off at once. As the matriarch of his family he did a horrible job of keeping that daughter and grandson of his in check.

First off: Patriarch.

Second of all, Tywin is not in charge of their actions. How can he be, he's literally across the continent. They lived with Robert and were raised by Robert. Not to mention that Cersei and Joff never had power until fairly recently, at which point they did something stupid before anyone could reach them.

Tywin is at fault for attacking the riverlands, all the other wars were started by others.

[Lion of Judah]

First off: Patriarch.

Second of all, Tywin is not in charge of their actions. How can he be, he's literally across the continent. They lived with Robert and were raised by Robert. Not to mention that Cersei and Joff never had power until fairly recently, at which point they did something stupid before anyone could reach them.

Tywin is at fault for attacking the riverlands, all the other wars were started by others.

Either way it's not as though his genius decision making made the situation better. You start a war have to stones to finish it.

[Castel]

Either way it's not as though his genius decision making made the situation better. You start a war have to stones to finish it.

So you accept that this was not his fault and then go back and say that he started the war?

Either way, what genius decisions did he make to prolong the long war started by Robert, Cersei and Joff?

[Lion of Judah]

So you accept that this was not his fault and then go back and say that he started the war?

Either way, what genius decisions did he make to prolong the long war started by Robert, Cersei and Joff?

Hear is an idea instead of going to war first you try to find Arya and negotiate with Robb Stark. Tywin did the opposite once he got involved with the situation, he went to war for a son he hated and supported a dumb move by his daughter and grandson. And exactly how did Robert start the war of the 5 kings again?

[Castel]

Hear is an idea instead of going to war first you try to find Arya and negotiate with Robb Stark. Tywin did the opposite once he got involved with the situation, he went to war for a son he hated and supported a dumb move by his daughter and grandson. And exactly how did Robert start the war of the 5 kings again?

What? Tywin went to war with the riverlands. And he had to because Cersei murdered the person that was keeping a lid on the whole situation.Ned Stark and Arya and Sansa were in custody as far as he knew, whichwas a good bargaining position. But before he knows it Cersei kills Ned and loses Arya, and Jaime is captured so the situation is not one to be easily resolved anymore. It's not like Robb sat at the Neck and said "Tywin Lannister, if you don't give me my daddy I'll, I'll...well I'll beat you up you meanie."

What is he supposed to do but support that dumb move? Go home? Well then they're all killed and he is vulnerable to his enemies, not to mention that his enemies might not leave him alone.

Robert and Cersei caused this entire mess. Robert gave Renly a position that was not his and gave him the power to attack and Cersei killed Robert too early and Joff topped it off by beheading Ned Stark turning a solvable situation into a powder keg.

[Lion of Judah]

What? Tywin went to war with the riverlands. And he had to because Cersei murdered the person that was keeping a lid on the whole situation.Ned Stark and Arya and Sansa were in custody as far as he knew, whichwas a good bargaining position. But before he knows it Cersei kills Ned and loses Arya, and Jaime is captured so the situation is not one to be easily resolved anymore. It's not like Robb sat at the Neck and said "Tywin Lannister, if you don't give me my daddy I'll, I'll...well I'll beat you up you meanie."

What is he supposed to do but support that dumb move? Go home? Well then they're all killed and he is vulnerable to his enemies, not to mention that his enemies might not leave him alone.

Robert and Cersei caused this entire mess. Robert gave Renly a position that was not his and gave him the power to attack and Cersei killed Robert too early and Joff topped it off by beheading Ned Stark turning a solvable situation into a powder keg.

This we can agree on. But for a guy whose is supposed to have good ideas coming out the behind he made more enemies than he could fight. This led him to depend on the suspect nature of others to bail him out and a last minute alliance with the Tyrell's to save his idiot daughter and grandson. He made it about pride, he was too proud to lose to a boy and bring himself to negotiate.

[Castel]

This we can agree on. But for a guy whose is supposed to have good ideas coming out the behind he made more enemies than he could fight.

You keep saying this, yet you've not disproved the points I've been trying to make. TYWIN didn't make those enemies, or at least he didn't make them permanent. CERSEI and JOFF did. Tywin was in a nice position to negotiate the return of Tyrion. Cersei murdered Robert. Tywin was in a nice position to negotiate returning Ned to the Wall, saving everyone face and allowing them to move on. Joff killed Ned. Tywin would never have had to deal with Stannis if not for Cersei.

This led him to depend on the suspect nature of others to bail him out and a last minute alliance with the Tyrell's to save his idiot daughter and grandson. He made it about pride, he was too proud to lose to a boy and bring himself to negotiate.

After Jaime was seized why would he negotiate? He has nothing to gain, all he can do is lose. Meanwhile he's sitting pretty at Harrenhal and Robb (barring magical wolf noses and goat tracks) is stuck trying to counter him in the riverlands, giving the city time to defend itself. Why would he make peace and let Robb keep the kingdoms after one victory? It was by no means a killing blow. Later on, how can he make peace with Stannis? Why would Renly want peace with him?

[Dimadick]

Because it would be like crediting FDR with Patton's victories, Lincoln with Grant's, the Roman Senate for the victories of their generals or Robert Jenkinson for Waterloo.

Technically, the political leaders were responsible for employing these generals.

*Adna Romanza Chaffee, Jr (1884-1941) was the leading American advocate of mechanized warfare from American warfare from 1927 to his death. He kept failing to convince Congress of the need for funding armored divisions (tanks). The Battle of France (1940), mostly won by tanks, finally convinced the government and Congress. Patton was one of the first commanders to be transferred to the new 2nd Armored Division in July, 1940, became its acting commander by November 1940, and was officially named its commander in April, 1941. If FDR had acted against the creation of armored divisions, Patton would probably end his career as an obscure Colonel (his rank when transferred to the armored divisions).

**FDR is also credited with promoting Dwight D. Eisenhower. When it came time to decide (in 1943) who to appoint Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, the obvious candidate was George Marshall (1880-1959), the current Chief of Staff of the United States Army. Roosevelt instead chose Eisenhower, the commander of the successful North African Campaign.

*Lincoln is also credited with keeping Grant in service and promoting him. Grant was widely accused of mishandling his victory at the Battle of Shiloh (1862), where the Union forces actually suffered more casualties than the defeated Confederates. Grant was temporarily relieved of command and assigned as the nominal second-in-command Henry Halleck (1815-1872). The position actually held no power or influence and Grant was about to resign from the Army. However, Lincoln was soon convinced of Grant's abilities and reinstated him in Command of the Army of the Tennessee. He also promoted him to Commander of the Military Division of the Mississippi River in 1863, and Commanding General of the Army in 1864. Increasingly convinced that Grant could achieve victories, no matter the casualties.

*Roman generals under the Republic were typically career politicians and relied on supporters to achieve appointments to military offices. Not necessarily through the Senate thought. Pompeius Magnus (106-48 BC) won his command in the war against the Cilician pirates through the passing of the Lex Gabinia (67 BC). A law passed by the Plebeian Council, and actually disapproved by the Senate. The Senate can still take credit for several successful appointments.

*Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool (1770-1828) is technically given credit for appointing Arthur Wellesley (later Duke of Wellington) as the British leader in the Peninsular War (1808-1814). Not a bad choice, considering that the open front kept bleeding France of resources for nearly a decade.

[Dimadick]

Crediting the leadership of Rome with the victories of Rome's generals would be analogous. Partially the senate but particularly the Consuls, who were commanders in chief of Rome's armies and led armies themselves.

The generals of Rome and its leaders were often the same persons. And the consuls took full advantage of their status as Commanders-in-chief only when they actually chose to campaign. Within the city of Rome, their power had certain strict limits. While on campaign they had power of life and death over every soldier, officer, citizen, or even ally.

[ab aeterno]

Technically, the political leaders were responsible for employing these generals.

*Adna Romanza Chaffee, Jr (1884-1941) was the leading American advocate of mechanized warfare from American warfare from 1927 to his death. He kept failing to convince Congress of the need for funding armored divisions (tanks). The Battle of France (1940), mostly won by tanks, finally convinced the government and Congress. Patton was one of the first commanders to be transferred to the new 2nd Armored Division in July, 1940, became its acting commander by November 1940, and was officially named its commander in April, 1941. If FDR had acted against the creation of armored divisions, Patton would probably end his career as an obscure Colonel (his rank when transferred to the armored divisions).

**FDR is also credited with promoting Dwight D. Eisenhower. When it came time to decide (in 1943) who to appoint Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, the obvious candidate was George Marshall (1880-1959), the current Chief of Staff of the United States Army. Roosevelt instead chose Eisenhower, the commander of the successful North African Campaign.

*Lincoln is also credited with keeping Grant in service and promoting him. Grant was widely accused of mishandling his victory at the Battle of Shiloh (1862), where the Union forces actually suffered more casualties than the defeated Confederates. Grant was temporarily relieved of command and assigned as the nominal second-in-command Henry Halleck (1815-1872). The position actually held no power or influence and Grant was about to resign from the Army. However, Lincoln was soon convinced of Grant's abilities and reinstated him in Command of the Army of the Tennessee. He also promoted him to Commander of the Military Division of the Mississippi River in 1863, and Commanding General of the Army in 1864. Increasingly convinced that Grant could achieve victories, no matter the casualties.

*Roman generals under the Republic were typically career politicians and relied on supporters to achieve appointments to military offices. Not necessarily through the Senate thought. Pompeius Magnus (106-48 BC) won his command in the war against the Cilician pirates through the passing of the Lex Gabinia (67 BC). A law passed by the Plebeian Council, and actually disapproved by the Senate. The Senate can still take credit for several successful appointments.

*Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool (1770-1828) is technically given credit for appointing Arthur Wellesley (later Duke of Wellington) as the British leader in the Peninsular War (1808-1814). Not a bad choice, considering that the open front kept bleeding France of resources for nearly a decade.

The generals of Rome and its leaders were often the same persons. And the consuls took full advantage of their status as Commanders-in-chief only when they actually chose to campaign. Within the city of Rome, their power had certain strict limits. While on campaign they had power of life and death over every soldier, officer, citizen, or even ally.

Collectively, this is my point. It is fair to compare Tywin to these, though not fair to credit the victories of Tywin's generals to Tywin, even if Tywin may have been astute enough to employ said generals.

[Dimadick]

Perfect isn't the adjective I would use; pompous, arrogant, they are more suiting.

Ah, another fan of Lord Walder Frey. Walder gives us this assesment of Tywin in "A Game of Thrones":

"Lord Tywin the proud and splendid, Warden of the West, Hand of the King, oh, what a great man that one is, him and his gold this and gold that and lions here and lions there. I'll wager you, he eats too many beans, he breaks wind just like me, but you'll never hear him admit it, oh, no. What's he got to be so puffed up about anyway?... Do you think I can't tell lord Stannis from Lord Tywin? They're both bungholes who think they're too noble to shit, but never mind about that, I know the difference. "