The Martells (and the North?) and Asymmetric Warfare

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

i am surprised they did not approach the Nights Watch, which was probably #ing in the thousands at the time of conquest, on invading north of the Wall, The Lord of Winterfell would have joined them out of fealty. It is curious, is it not?

Well you have that faction, including me on a good day, that says the entire reason Valyria avoided Westeros was because of skinchangers stealing their dragons. North of the Wall = more skinchangers who are active (as opposed to ones in the North who might be latent). So ... yes it is interesting to think about.

[Lord Damian]

Well you have that faction, including me on a good day, that says the entire reason Valyria avoided Westeros was because of skinchangers stealing their dragons. North of the Wall = more skinchangers who are active (as opposed to ones in the North who might be latent). So ... yes it is interesting to think about.

I never thought about the skinchanger avoidance theory but you are right. Martin has been very playful when asked if a dragon could be warged, which I take as a "yeah", it is true. Especially when he says in comparison to other literary dragons, his are not that smart, just very tough to kill. it is easier to warg simple minded creatures than it is smart ones.

[Guest]

Ok am I the only on now that wants bran to become a dragon and start murdering everyone.(maybe I'm a bit violent) but that would be awesome seeing someone in a dragon pov

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ok am I the only on now that wants bran to become a dragon and start murdering everyone.(maybe I'm a bit violent) but that would be awesome seeing someone in a dragon pov

I'd stop before I got to "start murdering everyone." But yeah I think it's a matter of when dragons are warged, not if.

[Lord Damian]

Ok am I the only on now that wants bran to become a dragon and start murdering everyone.(maybe I'm a bit violent) but that would be awesome seeing someone in a dragon pov

we are all a bit violent when it comes to the people of Westeros and no, you are not the only one that wants Bran to warg a dragon. Personally, i want all 3 dragons warged because in Dany's control, they will be used for evil things.

[Guest]

I'd stop before I got to "start murdering everyone." But yeah I think it's a matter of when dragons are warged, not if.

Yeah I'm a bit violent but I just wanna see bran become a badass now. The question is how do we get him to dany without getting murdered.

[straits]

It's down to losing more than you gain, for both Dorne and the North. I think that they would bend knee in most situations except if, like you said, they were forced to cast down their culture/religion. So assuming that happens, and assuming it happens in one place at a time, the rest of Westeros can not be discounted as the willingness of the Houses who bent knee (Lannister, Arryn, Storm kings, Tyrells).

We already know what happens when one tries to invade Dorne:

Daeron had long felt that the continued independence of Dorne represented unfinished business for the Targaryens, and upon his ascension he vowed to rectify his ancestor's mistake.

Upon taking the throne in 157AL, the young King Daeron I marched south, quickly defeating the Dornishmen in battle. It's said that he lost ten thousand men taking Dorne and fifty thousand trying to hold it.

And then the conqueror gets assassinated.

Even with dragons, the Dornish could agree to parley with Targaryen family members, and assassinate them right then. Assuming that they had three dragons and the support of Highgarden, they would have to spread the forces and the dragons three ways to hold Dorne down with an iron boot. And that would last until the dragons died. Short of genocide and repopulation, Dorne would not be ruled.

The North would be even more ridiculous to hold because an invasion is a logistics nightmare and once the invaders are gone, the doors of the North would swing shut again. And there's the matter of alien forces, the skinchangers. Dragons aren't inexplicable demigods. They are mythical creatures, but natural to the world. What they seem to have in abundance is aggression, appetite and what you could call pride. Not unlike other predators. But the fact that they were ruled by humans as effectively as dogs are, if not more, makes me think that warging is very likely, especially at a young age.

That would be interesting, infiltrating as a skinchanger in a Valyrian household and messing with baby dragons to make them susceptible to being taken over.

[Fire Eater]

The North has only one land route, that is guarded by the Neck and Moat Cailin. The Neck allows crannogmen to fire poisoned arrows concealed, and it's hard to start a fire in a wetland. Moat Cailin could hold off Aegon's army, but not his dragons. All he would need to do is fly Balerion over Moat Cailin and roast the towers.

After Aegon's forces are out of the Neck, in winter they would have a better chance of asymmetric warfare against a Southron army as was shown with Stannis's army. They would have to hide in the woods as the North is mostly flatland around Winterfell. If King Torrhen Stark followed Myriah Martell's example and evacuated all the keeps along the way to Winterfell, then he would have a better chance. The Northmen are known to be good horsemen with mounts that can survive well in winter, and the Northmen could conduct skirmishes and raids against Aegon's forces. There could be a situation akin to Russian invasions with harsh winters, no food and a high casualty rate that follows if the Northmen follow a scorched earth policy.

[straits]

The North has only one land route, that is guarded by the Neck and Moat Cailin. The Neck allows crannogmen to fire poisoned arrows concealed, and it's hard to start a fire in a wetland. Moat Cailin could hold off Aegon's army, but not his dragons. All he would need to do is fly Balerion over Moat Cailin and roast the towers.

After Aegon's forces are out of the Neck, in winter they would have a better chance of asymmetric warfare against a Southron army as was shown with Stannis's army. They would have to hide in the woods as the North is mostly flatland around Winterfell. If King Torrhen Stark followed Myriah Martell's example and evacuated all the keeps along the way to Winterfell, then he would have a better chance. The Northmen are known to be good horsemen with mounts that can survive well in winter, and the Northmen could conduct skirmishes and raids against Aegon's forces. There could be a situation akin to Russian invasions with harsh winters, no food and a high casualty rate that follows if the Northmen follow a scorched earth policy.

Isn't the Wolfswood right next to Winterfell?

[Mace Cooterian]

The North has only one land route, that is guarded by the Neck and Moat Cailin. The Neck allows crannogmen to fire poisoned arrows concealed, and it's hard to start a fire in a wetland. Moat Cailin could hold off Aegon's army, but not his dragons. All he would need to do is fly Balerion over Moat Cailin and roast the towers.

After Aegon's forces are out of the Neck, in winter they would have a better chance of asymmetric warfare against a Southron army as was shown with Stannis's army. They would have to hide in the woods as the North is mostly flatland around Winterfell. If King Torrhen Stark followed Myriah Martell's example and evacuated all the keeps along the way to Winterfell, then he would have a better chance. The Northmen are known to be good horsemen with mounts that can survive well in winter, and the Northmen could conduct skirmishes and raids against Aegon's forces. There could be a situation akin to Russian invasions with harsh winters, no food and a high casualty rate that follows if the Northmen follow a scorched earth policy.

From The History of Aegon's Conquest (SSM):

Torrhen Stark had raised a large army (30,000) and had crossed the Neck. Aegon marched with an army half again that size. The Starks waited at Moat Cailin and took counsel. Torrhen's bastard brother, Brandon Snow, offered to sneak into the Targaryen camp and kill the three dragons. Instead, Torrhen sent three maesters to meet Aegon across the Trident. Torrhen would bend the knee and would be forever nown as "The King Who Knelt".

The warqing of dragon's can not be swept under the carpet. In the back of my mind I don't know what Torrehn Stark sent his forces to Moat Cailin when he knew is way going to bend the knee. Did he not think that anyone in his posse could warq a dragon? Was he that unskilled at warfare?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

From The History of Aegon's Conquest (SSM):

Torrhen Stark had raised a large army (30,000) and had crossed the Neck. Aegon marched with an army half again that size. The Starks waited at Moat Cailin and took counsel. Torrhen's bastard brother, Brandon Snow, offered to sneak into the Targaryen camp and kill the three dragons. Instead, Torrhen sent three maesters to meet Aegon across the Trident. Torrhen would bend the knee and would be forever nown as "The King Who Knelt".

The warqing of dragon's can not be swept under the carpet. In the back of my mind I don't know what Torrehn Stark sent his forces to Moat Cailin when he knew is way going to bend the knee. Did he not think that anyone in his posse could warq a dragon? Was he that unskilled at warfare?

I would love to know what some of the other Stark kings — the one who liberated the Wolf's Den, for instance, Brandon Ice Eyes — would have done in this situation.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The North has only one land route, that is guarded by the Neck and Moat Cailin. The Neck allows crannogmen to fire poisoned arrows concealed, and it's hard to start a fire in a wetland. Moat Cailin could hold off Aegon's army, but not his dragons. All he would need to do is fly Balerion over Moat Cailin and roast the towers.

By that token, they could have just burned Sunspear down, too.

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

If the Northman, especially the Starks, weren't so honor-bound they probably would be able to hold the dragons off via the guerrilla tactics

[Fire Eater]

By that token, they could have just burned Sunspear down, too.

Sunspear is the capital while Moat Cailin is the sole fortress guarding the only land route to the North.

Isn't the Wolfswood right next to Winterfell?

The wolfswood is next to Winterfell, but those aren;t the only forested areas in the North.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sunspear is the capital while Moat Cailin is the sole fortress guarding the only land route to the North.

And? Harrenhal was the continental "capital" of the ironborn and they still burned it.

[TheMysteriousOne]

If the Northman, especially the Starks, weren't so honor-bound they probably would be able to hold the dragons off via the guerrilla tactics

I think it's a misconception when posters say that the Starks are all honor-bound. Ned was honorable, Jon is/tries to honorable, as do the rest of the children Ned raised. But we don't really know anything about previous generations to say that the Starks are honorable, or that the Targaryens are all mad, etc.

[Fire Eater]

And? Harrenhal was the continental "capital" of the ironborn and they still burned it.

Sunspear wasn't full of armed men like Harrenhal, it would have been dishonorable to burn down a fortress made up of mostly unarmed women and children.

[J. Stargaryen]

Apple,

I was wondering if you had a reply to this comment I made shortly before the thread was close:

It almost makes you wonder if GRRM didn't have Torrhen Stark kneel just for the sake of keeping this information* from us.

*how the dragons would fare in the North.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sunspear wasn't full of armed men like Harrenhal, it would have been dishonorable to burn down a fortress made up of mostly unarmed women and children.

It just doesn't make any sense to me to say that the Northerners couldn't hold back the Targ invasion just because the dragons could burn Moat Cailin, that's all.

And dishonorable, really? Because invading Westeros in the first place was goddamn chivalrous? :P

[straits]

Sunspear wasn't full of armed men like Harrenhal, it would have been dishonorable to burn down a fortress made up of mostly unarmed women and children.

Pretty dishonorable to use a doomsday weapon such as the dragons to conquer a continent who did nothing to Valyria, too.