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References and Homages

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This is a great thread!!
However, I'm shocked and appalled by these 2 missed!
MAJOR Spoilers below:

1. First OZYMANDIAS, by Shelly:
OZYMANDIAS
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

In SOS, Robb and his mother are on an ancient hill discussing his kingdom/kingship. Nearby is a statue, nearly rubbed smooth, of a forgotten king. A major foreshadowing of Robb's short stint as king.

2. Yet another Tolkien reference:
In the first spoiler chapter for ADWD, Tyrion escapes across the narrow sea by hiding in a barrell! Sound familiar? Dwarf in a barrell?? Edited by brhodes

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In AGOT the following is spoken by Eddard and Barristan Selmy during the tourney at King's Landing.

"None of us is ever ready," he said.
"For knighthood?"
"For death"

In [i]Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn[/i] by Tad Williams I remember a very similar if not identical conversation taking place, with the part of Selmy taken by Sir Camaris. However, I do not have the books on me at the moment, and can not confirm.

In [i]The Scourge of God[/i] by S.M. Stirling I believe I have found the first homages [i]to[/i] GRRM.

On Page 56: Sandra shrugged. "I [i]do[/i] tend to let the game of thrones become an end in itself," she said.

On Page 3, mention is made of a Mother, Maiden, and Crone in a Wicca ceremony. However, I know very little of this religion, and perhaps such feminine personifications are a genuine part of it.

Note: GRRM is mentioned in the Acknowledgements.

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[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1621431' date='Dec 16 2008, 13.44']On Page 3, mention is made of a Mother, Maiden, and Crone in a Wicca ceremony. However, I know very little of this religion, and perhaps such feminine personifications are a genuine part of it.[/quote]

Yes, that is a genuine part of the religion. Research it, and you'll see a few parallels to the new gods in asoiaf.

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[quote name='semiramis' post='1370716' date='May 25 2008, 19.43']When I heard about a drear fortress off the coast of a sunny kingdom used as a prison, I initially thought "Alcatraz"[/quote]

For most of the year, San Francisco isn't what you'd call sunny. ;)

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[quote name='The Red Witch' post='1447623' date='Jul 20 2008, 10.01']It is probably a nod to Loki who is a Trickster as well and father of giants.
I noticed the name Daeron appears in the Silmarillion as a minstrel as well at the court of Thingol who betrayed Luthien twice because he wanted her himself. Thinking this is where the name of the Nightwatchman that Arya kills came from.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, Daeron the Elf in the Silmarillion is also a minstrel/harpist/musician of sorts, as is Daeron the ex-Nightswatch brother whom Arya kills. Its been a while since I read both the Silm and ASoIaF though, so I could be mistaken.

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SPOILER: the other
brienne's early companion shadrich, the mad mouse, is roughly the same type of unsavory hireling evident in mieville's shadrach of PSS, though the physical descriptions differ, and it would be more apt to associate that character with moths than with mouses. heh. perhaps tolkien's shadrach, of the tower of cirirth ungol is better? I know not. or is it more likely that all three draw on the similarly named character from the book of daniel? no idea. will have to wait until the martin character develops further, especially vis-a-vis furnaces.

[/quote]

This also reminds me of the Delacroix and Mr Jingles(the mouse) in Stephen King's [i]The Green Mile[/i]

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I have recently been re-reading the Irish mythology cycle, the [i]Tain [/i], and when I got to the story of Cuchulainn again (one of my favourites!) it struck me that the character of Sandor Clegane seems to (sort of) be a reference to him.

Cuchulainn:

~ nicknamed The Hound of Ulster (that's the obvious one)
~ associated with dogs/hounds from his early childhood
~ has loyal steeds, one of which stays with him to the death and fights violently for him (kills thirty men with his hooves and teeth before he dies)
~ in many versions, described as having dark longish hair, pale skin, and appearing lean but in fact being the strongest man alive
~ his face disfigures itself when he goes into his [i]riastrad[/i], his warp spasm/battle fury (though this is only temporary disfigurement, his otherwise handsome face is described as pretty hideous-looking at these times)
~ fated to die young and violently and outnumbered (but heroically, of course)

Sandor Clegane

~ nicknamed The Hound
~ also associated with dogs throughout the series and because of his house's sigil
~ has a loyal but tempermental stallion, Stranger, who is an effective warhorse
~ described as having a similar physical appearance---dark hair, leaner than his brother of course but incredibly strong
~ face horribly disfigured (permanently, but still gives him a fearsome otherworldy and monstrous visage in battle, along with his Hound helm)
~ while there is no specific prophecy regarding Sandor's fate, there doesn't really need to be one. A character like him is almost certainly doomed to die young. Whether Sandor dies "heroically" or not.....we'll just have to wait and see. :) *



Granted, these are all rather general similarites and I admit that I might be stretching certain things a bit, but I can't believe I hadn't thought of it before. Forgive me if someone else has already posted about this, its been a while since I read the first parts of this thread. Of course, there are obvious differences too. Sandor is a much more "real" character, whereas Cuchulainn, being mythological, always looms larger than life (he has a "hero light" shining about him, has many lovers, performs outrageous feats, etc). Sandor, despite his physical strength, is an anti-hero and is more "human", the better to fit into the shadowy greys of the world of ASoIaF than the more overtly heroic world of the [i]Tain[/i].

Nevertheless, I wonder GRRM intentionally referenced Cuchulainn in the character of the Hound or if I am just overly sensitive, being so obsessed with mythology as I am. Hmm....



* Incidentally, if anyone on here is unfamiliar with the story of Cuchulainn's death, please do check it out. Its an incredibly bad-ass/epic way for any warrior to go. If GRRM grants Sandor an exit even marginally akin to Cuchulainn's, it would be a fitting way for such an intense character to die. (Hence why I still can't believe that he's really dead yet!) Edited by SwiftSnowmane

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[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1621431' date='Dec 16 2008, 10.44']On Page 3, mention is made of a Mother, Maiden, and Crone in a Wicca ceremony. However, I know very little of this religion, and perhaps such feminine personifications are a genuine part of it.[/quote]
Modern Wicca has adopted the Triple Goddess as one of their two gods since about 1954. The idea was first proposed by a poet in 1948, although any Wiccans would correct me that their beliefs have been the same for thousands and thousands of years, of course.

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There is a mention somewhere that Baelor the Blessed made peace with Dorne by "walking the Boneway barefoot", or something like that. Maybe a reference to (or inspired by) Emperor Heinrich at Canossa? ;)

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[quote name='Arakano' post='1674931' date='Feb 5 2009, 09.19']There is a mention somewhere that Baelor the Blessed made peace with Dorne by "walking the Boneway barefoot", or something like that. Maybe a reference to (or inspired by) Emperor Heinrich at Canossa? ;)[/quote]
Possible, but I think walking unshod is, in both reality and fiction, a general sign of humility, e.g. after the Battle of the Blackwater the newly-dubbed knights walked barefoot around the city.

Could Baelor himself might be inspired by the pious, saintly and ascetic Loius IX?

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1675155' date='Feb 5 2009, 12.59']Could Baelor himself might be inspired by the pious, saintly and ascetic Loius IX?[/quote]
Doesn't sound right to me. Louis IX was a very competent monarch overall and an ardent crusading king, whereas pacifist Baelor sounds like a fuckup, closer to Henry VI.

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I don't believe this a real connection, but as I was rereading [i]The Voyage of the Dawn Treader[/i] for the Nth time, when Lucy Pevensie is in the Magician's house, I was reminded of Dany and the House of the Undying.

Both scenes have a young queen far from her home go through a rather creepy dwelling for sorcerers.

Both queens are from dynasties that are not native to their countries, no longer rule there, and have (in very different ways) siblings reigning together.

Lucy was bade to take the last door on the left, Dany the first on the right.

Lucy was served food and drink by dwarves (Dufflepuds) before she entered, Dany was given the "blue drink" by a dwarf likewise.

The doors of Coriakin had [i]"strange signs painted in scarlet on the doors - twisty, complicated things which obviously had a meaning and it mightn't be a very nice meaning either "[/i], those of Qarth were [i]"fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, but somehow frightening."
[/i]
Lucy sees strange masks and the "bearded glass" while going through the hall, Dany sees many visions in the siderooms.

The hall seems to Lucy to be growing longer as she walks, and Dany sees the torches going out behind her.

Lucy is tempted by the beautification and eavesdropping spells in the Book, Dany by the fake Wilem Darry and Pyat Pree.

Both queens take something forever from the inhabitants of the house: Lucy their invisibility, and Dany their "immortality".

After Lucy casts her spell, Aslan tells her "I call all times soon", and before Dany enters, Pyat Pree says "Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wings to them".

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It will be interesting to see how Martin describes the Cranogmen. A Cranog was a common type of habitaion in Ireland about 1500 years ago. It was a man made island (obviously surrounded by water) common in the bogs of Ireland. Just like the 'Neck'.

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Today I stumbled across a discussion of names and their meaning. Usually I like "speaking names" such as J.K.Rowling is using quite a lot. But G.R.R.M. doesn't do this - or so I thought.
But isn't it astonishing that Jamie (a variation of James/Jacob) means "heel grabber"? I had to laugh out loud as I realised this. After all he is the younger twin. And wasn't he grabbing Cersei's heel? (I can't remember right now.)
Are there any other examples of "speaking names"?

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Haven't been on in a long while and don't have time to read the last 18 pages or whatever but does anyone know what the current status of the HBO series is? Or where I can find a page that isn't filled with drivel?

G.R.R. Martin's blog perhaps?

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[quote name='Jaimes_Right_Hand' post='1691500' date='Feb 18 2009, 18.44']Haven't been on in a long while and don't have time to read the last 18 pages or whatever but does anyone know what the current status of the HBO series is?[/quote]
HBO has ordered the pilot episode for the series. Discussion is in [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showforum=25"]this[/url] forum. Edited by Angalin

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[quote name='SwiftSnowmane' post='1649101' date='Jan 14 2009, 18.05']I have recently been re-reading the Irish mythology cycle, the [i]Tain [/i], and when I got to the story of Cuchulainn again (one of my favourites!) it struck me that the character of Sandor Clegane seems to (sort of) be a reference to him.[/quote]

I really like this! Though in the version I have he inexplicably has rainbow hair - not that hair color is the most important factor. Nicknaming him the Hound is definitely a reference to Cuchulainn. I can't believe I never thought of that either! Now I have to look over the Tain again, and I'll make another post if I find anything else. Edited by Angalin
edited quoted post for length

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Apparently Westeros is a real place - a town in Sweden goes by the name of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4ster%C3%A5s"]Västerås [/url], anglicized [i]Westeros[/i] for example [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=YYoXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=westeros+bishop+sweden&source=bl&ots=gqxnOaLh0Q&sig=RCulnVaPj9keUtht7Nndwi9KiXU&hl=en&ei=bmavScbzLYH8tgfsyMXQBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result"]here[/url]

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I haven't read Tolkien's books besides The Hobbit, but I've wiki'ed a lot of his work. I came across the name of Castamir the Usurper, who rebelled against the rightful king Eldacar and eventually founded the Corsairs of Umbar.

Although in action they were only similar in that they rebelled against their lord and were eventually wiped out, the similarity in the Reynes of [b]Castamere [/b]with Tolkien's [b]Castamir [/b]can't be ignored.

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