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References and Homages


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Was reading this essay about events in The Vale (spoilers for TWOW) ...

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

... when I realised that GRRM has teased in the names of three musicians who according to Wikipedia influenced one of his fave bands (of course, The Grateful Dead).

The group of 3 hedge knights at the Vale are Shadrich, Morgarth and Byron.

shadRICH (pronounced with a hard CH?).... morGARTH ... byRON

Three members of The Hawks (geddit? they're near the Eyrie) were:

  • RICK Danko
  • GARTH Hudson
  • RONnie Hawkins

2 of these later formed The Band.

From Wikipedia:

Quote

The Band was a Canadian-American rock band formed in Toronto, Ontario, in 1967. It consisted of four Canadians and one American: Rick Danko (bass, guitar, vocals, fiddle), Garth Hudson (organ, keyboards, accordion, saxophone), Richard Manuel (piano, drums, vocals), Robbie Robertson(guitar, songwriting, vocals), and Levon Helm (drums, vocals, mandolin, guitar). The Band combined elements of Americana, folk, rock, jazz, country, and R&B, influencing subsequent musicians such as Elton John, the Grateful Dead, Eric Clapton and Wilco.

Between 1958 and 1963, the group was known as the Hawks, a backing band for rockabilly singer Ronnie Hawkins.

And now I really need to put these books down and put my feet on some grass .... :) 

Edited by Sandy Clegg
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  • 1 month later...
4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The Wall by Pink Floyd has been mentioned as a reference by people before, for The Wall obviously. But then I was wondering about the Boltons and their sigil a flayed man on pink background. Pink Floyd / Pink Flayed?

Hope we get a dark side of the moon :devil: courtesy resurgent Starks. Maybe something in the Vale mountains...

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  • 4 months later...

Ser Creighton Longbough's name combo makes for an allusion to the Rothschild family

Only other Creighton in the series is Creighton Redfort of House Redfort of the Vale. Their sigil is red and white theme, with a red castle on a white field and a red border. Creighton is Scottish for border. The name Rothschild stems from their 16th century ancestor who took it as his last name, because he lived in a house on the Red Shield Street of Frankfurt (Red Shield = Roth Schild). This is basically what Redfort's sigil depicts.

Longbough is a wordplay on Longbow. House Hunter of the Vale and their seat is Longbow castle. Their sigil depicts a bundle of 5 arrows upwards. When the Rothschilds attained nobility in the 19th century and patented their coat of arms, one of the quarters depicts an angel's hand holding a bundle of 5 arrows. It has become the motif that the family uses on their letterheads, porcelain, jewelry, company logos, etc. The English branch and Rothschild & Co company use the official downward depiction (that's the one the herald agreed on in the 19th century). The French branch and other family businesses use the upward version.

The bundle of 5 arrows as an idea stems from Aesop's tale of the Old Man and his Sons. On his deathbed, the old man calls his quibbling sons to him and hands them a bundle of arrows. He challenges them to break the arrows. They all fail, and when he gets the arrows  back he breaks each arrow individually and tells them that there is strength in unity, but separated it is easy to break each one by one. At the time they petitioned for the coat of arms, the Rothschilds were 5 brothers.

This basically is the same message that Ned has to his quibbling daughters in KL about the strength of the pack.

House Redfort and House Hunter's sigils separately would not reference this, but by putting the names of Creighton Longbough together, we have the Red House of the Red Shield with the 5 arrows: and thus a reference to the Rothschild family and their unity. 

https://www.rothschildarchive.org/family/the_rothschild_name_and_arms/five_arrows

https://www.rothschildarchive.org/family/the_rothschild_name_and_arms/any_questions

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On 3/12/2023 at 2:50 PM, sweetsunray said:

Longbough is a wordplay on Longbow. House Hunter of the Vale and their seat is Longbow castle. Their sigil depicts a bundle of 5 arrows upwards.

Some more references in the Vale to arrows and quivers:

Catelyn remarks how, from beneath, the Eyrie and its seven towers resembles arrows stuck in a quiver:

The Eyrie was a small castle by the standards of the great houses; seven slender white towers bunched as tightly as arrows in a quiver on a shoulder of the great mountain.

A bunch of seven, rather than 5. But then in a subsequent Bran chapter we have noted archer Theon in this scene:

As the maester knelt to examine the wound, Bran turned his head. Theon Greyjoy stood beside a sentinel tree, his bow in hand. He was smiling. Ever smiling. A half-dozen arrows were thrust into the soft ground at his feet, but it had taken only one. "A dead enemy is a thing of beauty," he announced.

A half-dozen in the ground, plus the one he used, making seven. Just as Theon uses the ground as a stand-in quiver, so we have the land being a metaphorical quiver, just as the mountain supports the seven 'arrows' of the Eyrie. 

Edited by Sandy Clegg
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2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Some more references in the Vale to arrows and quivers:

Catelyn remarks how, from beneath, the Eyrie and its seven towers resembles arrows stuck in a quiver:

The Eyrie was a small castle by the standards of the great houses; seven slender white towers bunched as tightly as arrows in a quiver on a shoulder of the great mountain.

A bunch of seven, rather than 5. But then in a subsequent Bran chapter we have noted archer Theon in this scene:

As the maester knelt to examine the wound, Bran turned his head. Theon Greyjoy stood beside a sentinel tree, his bow in hand. He was smiling. Ever smiling. A half-dozen arrows were thrust into the soft ground at his feet, but it had taken only one. "A dead enemy is a thing of beauty," he announced.

A half-dozen in the ground, plus the one he used, making seven. Just as Theon uses the ground as a stand-in quiver, so we have the land being a metaphorical quiver, just as the mountain supports the seven 'arrows' of the Eyrie. 

The seven towers of the Eyrie and the mention of "great houses" implies to me those 7 great houses should stand together united to remain strong.

Theon using arrows one by one then means that if the great houses war amongst each other, then they can be taken out one by one. Theon and his father do this when Robb they reject Robb's proposal to be a united front, of two separate kingdoms.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I thought I had in the past seen a list of homages in the wiki but now cannot find it. I also looked in the Citadel. Has anything been done with the suggestions listed in this thread?

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I have been analysing the Meereenese names as they are so uncanny that they just have to mean something. Probably all in the pronunciation. So Galazza Galare - the Green Grace - strikes me as a pretty obvious one. If we say her name aloud we may get ‘Gal at the Gallery’ in a mock-Italian kind of way. Perhaps this famous painting - of an Italian lady in a green dress - could be George’s way of providing some Dany clues:

The Arnolfini Portrait by Jan Van Eyck, 1434, has long puzzled art historians over its use of symbolism. It depicts a nobleman and his Italian wife:

https://www.artstor.org/2017/06/06/the-many-questions-surrounding-jan-van-eycks-arnolfini-portrait/
 

Some of the imagery is still debated today, such as the orange, the candle, the shoes and the dog. Much in the same way we puzzle over the imagery in ASOIAF.

Anyway the article is worth a read even if this is a dead end as it’s a fascinating  painting. 

(For the two remaining people who still read this thread I guess) :D

 

Edited by Sandy Clegg
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  • 3 weeks later...

Not sure if this is a genuine homage but I think it makes a lot of thematic sense:

Ser Davos, the Onion Knight, is possibly an homage to CT Onions, the principle editor of the original Oxford Dictionary of Etymology and one of the most famous Shakespeare Word Glossaries. We see all  through this thread evidence that George uses wordplay and less well-known meanings in his writing, and part of Davos' arc is learning his letters so it fits thematically. Onions contain many layers, just as words have layers of meaning.

A quick look at the wikipedia entry for CT Onions also reveals that, like Ser Davos, he served in the navy and had seven sons. I bought the latest version of the Oxford Dictionary of Etymology recently and have indeed found it very useful. The Shakespeare Glossary websites are also a treasure trove. Bastard apparently also has the meaning of 'counterfeit' for example.

Edited by Sandy Clegg
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 8/7/2010 at 9:48 AM, History of Westeros said:

There have been several mentions of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn in this thread.. but there are quite a few more that deserve mentioning.

 

1) Forget King Arthur and the sword in the stone. Arthur Dayne is Camaris from MST. Both were the finest knights in the realm, known as much for honor as for martial skill. **Both wield a sword forged from a meteorite** (Looney theory based on this connection about to be posted after I finish this one).

 

2) Pryrates, a fire mage who comes from a far off land, is closest advisor to the king and wields undue influence. An obvious Melisandre. Also, said king was the unpopular younger brother of a popular king.

 

3) There is an ancient evil that arises in the frozen north. I don't need to explain that one. :)

 

4) In MST there are good elves (hidden from humanity and thought extinct) and bad elves (ancient evil in the north). I suspect that the Children of the Forest are the good-guy counterpart, "hidden good guy elves" (even if they are all dead in aSoIaF. I bet they are not, however). This also makes me suspect that the CotF and the Others have similar origins.

 

5) If R+L = J is true (I think it is), the main character of MST is a "hidden heir" a la Jon Snow. This is by itself, not much since the hidden heir thing has been done a million times, but considering all the other parallels, it goes to show how much Martin was inspired by MST.

 

6) Also, though it certainly isn't unique to the two series, MST used shifting POV's as the narrative style.

 

I recall that there are even more parallels, but I read MST more than 5 years ago. When I read it, I had already read the pre-Feast books at least 4 times each. Reading MST was fun.. it wasn't great, but there was a wealth of similarities to aSoIaF which enhanced the experience.

I was really surprised to find out about such similarities.

Although for the 5th point I believe that the parallels might go even further:
"Josua rescinds his claim to the throne, saying Simon has more of a right anyways since Josua's father was Camaris, not Prester John. (Camaris' confession)"

I'm an Arthur + Lyanna supporter.

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  • 2 months later...
On 3/12/2023 at 2:50 PM, sweetsunray said:

Only other Creighton in the series is Creighton Redfort of House Redfort of the Vale. Their sigil is red and white theme, with a red castle on a white field and a red border. Creighton is Scottish for border.

This took me down a wee rabbit hole. Creighton does indeed have border as the first part of its etymology, and there’s also a second part. 

Quote

It is derived from Gaelic crìoch (border) and Middle English tune (settlement).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creighton_(name)

it seems ‘ton’ as a place name suffix is from ‘tune’ - one of several variations of ‘toun’ (town).

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/toun#

toun

Middle English

Alternative forms:

town, towne, tun, tune

Now, Brienne actually wonders about Creighton’s name (interesting) - and she’s never heard a song about him.

Quote

If there was a song about Creighton Longbough, it was not one Brienne had heard. Their names meant no more to her than did their arms.

Tune / song. Then she ponders on meaning. Followed by the idea of the arms. If ever there was a subtle hint that we might need to dig into the etymology of names and sigils, then this might be one. 

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