Jump to content
Ran

References and Homages

Recommended Posts

As the plot of the series is heavily built upon the Wars of the Roses (confirmed by GRRM himself, I think), this isn't too far-fetched. I think it was even said somewhere that Tyrion is Richard III as portrayed by Shakespeare and Stannis is Richard III as seen by modern historians.

Cersei IMO has a touch of Shakespeare's Richard III too, as far as "alienating or murdering all your former allies until you're alone and no one will help you" goes.

GRRM likes to make things look like history, but with different outcomes.

One thing I thought as well is that Ned Stark is some kind of Richard III who failed. He was basically in the same situation, but took the opposite decisions. Both Richard III and Ned Stark are loved in the north of the kingdom and considered fair rulers there. Both are named protectors of the realm and regents after the deaths of a friend/relative. And both said that the dead king's sons were illegitimate. But while Richard III was kind of without scruples and made his nephews disappear (or at least took advantage of that) to become king, Ned Stark was outmanouvered politically and ended dying like a traitor.

Dany is based on the Jacobite kings. Just as she's named "Queen across the water" in the appendix of ACOK and ASOS the jacobite kings were called "king accross the water". But while jacobitism failed, Dany is probably going to succeed.

Edited by ryamano

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aemon's line: "Where is the Prince That Was Promised?" always reminded me of the Rohirrim chant from Lord of the Rings: "Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?" This was in turn adopted from the Old English poem, "The Wanderer."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[*] <div class="spoiler"><strong>SPOILER:</strong> AFfC<div>Harry Sawyer and Robin Potter: Two mock suitors of Brienne the Beauty who paid for their humiliation of her at the melee in Bitterbridge. She recalls unhorsing Harry Sawyer and then mentions having given Robin Potter a nasty scar on his head. Some intrepid readers speculate that the close proximity of the names, and the scar Potter received, is a reference to J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter, who has a distinguishing scar on his forehead.</div></div>

Don't forget that this also references Robert J. Sawyer, who was also on the ballot. (And I believe got more votes than ASoS)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, The Moon Pool is a tavern in AFFC, and The Moon Pool by A. Merrit was one of the seminal fantasy novels of the first half of the 20th century. Merrit was the best selling fantasy author in the world.

Alas, George said this was not a reference, just a happy coincidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In one of the first Jon chapters in Clash of Kings - when they are at Craster's Keep - Samwell Tarly says to Jon "Oh, hullo, Jon". This is the first instance of "hullo" I've seen on my current re-read, and I can't rememember it ever being use by other characters. But it was often used by the hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

I hope this is not a homage to LOTR, though. I hate the idea of fat Samwell Tarly being in any was based on Samwise Gamgee. No matter what Peter Jackson would have you believe, Sam Gamgee was not fat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When he smuggles her to his home in the Fingers, Littlefinger offers Sansa half a pomegranate. She declines. Smacked of Persephone to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM uses the number 3 throughout the books. This could be an idea taken from the classic Sci-fi book by Arthur Clarke, Rendezvous with Rama. In that book it is shown repeated that the "Ramans do everything in 3's." Meaning there is always a repetition of things 3 times.

In ASOIAF, there also is a repetition of things happening 3 times. I'll list some. There are probably many more.

  • The Targaryen sigil - The dragon has 3 heads
    Dany has 3 dragons
    There are 3 dragonriders.
    Dany has 3 treacheries in the prophesies
    Dany has 3 mounts in the prophesies
    Dany has 3 handmaids
    Dany has 3 bloodriders
    3 people from Quarth come to meet Dany and her dragons (also referring to the 3 wise men coming to Jesus when he was born.)
    Dany leaves Quarth in 3 ships
    Dany conquers 3 cities

    3 main characters have their mothers die at childbirth - Tyrion, Dany, and Jon (assuming Lyanna is his mother)
    King Aerys has 3 children - Rhaegar, Vicerys, Dany
    Rhaegar has 3 children (assumiing Jon is his child) - Rhaenys, Aegon, Jon
    Tywin Lannister has 3 children
    Cercei has 3 children
    Arya has 3 wishes from Jaqen and there were 3 men chained in the wagon.

On second thought I'm not sure if the number of children is so significant as other Lords have different numbers.? But plenty of the number "3"; especially for the Targaryens.

Sorry to pull this back from so far in the thread but I just had to add...

Three knights at the Tower of Joy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In one of the first Jon chapters in Clash of Kings - when they are at Craster's Keep - Samwell Tarly says to Jon "Oh, hullo, Jon". This is the first instance of "hullo" I've seen on my current re-read, and I can't rememember it ever being use by other characters. But it was often used by the hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

I hope this is not a homage to LOTR, though. I hate the idea of fat Samwell Tarly being in any was based on Samwise Gamgee. No matter what Peter Jackson would have you believe, Sam Gamgee was not fat.

Sean Astin agrees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite a lot of really tenuous ones on here so I'm going to add my own.

SPOILERS

I think the Welsh myth of Lleu Llaw Gyffess and Blodeuwedd (google it I lived in Wales for 4 years and still have some issues with pronunciation) from the fourth branch of the Mabinogion and also the excellent and classic 1967 young adult fantasy-ish novel The Owl Service which directly draws on this myth. may have partially (note partially) served as inspiration for the back story between Robert, Lyanna and Rheagar. While stories of love, affairs, betrayal, hurt pride and revenge aren't particularly uncommon there are some similarities between the two that makes me think Martin may have been thinking of this story while writing it. Particularly Lyanna and Blodeuwedd.

I'm not a hundred 100% convinced but here goes.

To recap the story: Lleu is a hero in welsh mythology with a very odd back story which includes how his mother places a tynged on him meaning he will never marry a human woman, his uncle (a magician) and his king create him a woman from flowers to be his wife and get round the curse.

however when he was away she fell in love with a neighboring lord Gronw Pebr and had an affair. They then plot to kill him (as i say partial inspiration) so they can be together and Blodeuwedd tricks him into revealing how he can be killed (since he can not be killed during the day or night, nor indoors or outdoors, neither riding nor walking, not clothed and not naked, nor by any weapon lawfully made). they arrange the very circumstance needed and Gronw thows a spear (made over a year during the hour when everyone is at mass) but it doesnt kill him, he transforms into an eagle and flees. His uncle gwydion finds him and turns him back. Lleu then demands Gronw stand and take the same as he got. standing on either side of a river Gronw has a stone placed between the two of them, but Lleu throws his spear through the rock and it kills Gronw. He then curses Bloduewedd and turns her into an owl, the bird hated by all others.

the Owl Service is about 3 teenagers getting caught up in the myth repeating itself in them. It is quite brilliant.

I'm not 100% about this one but as Lyanna is repeatedly associated with flowers, robert kills rheagar essentially across a river and a few other small points to go alongside the love and betrayal.

This reading also fits in with one thing i think which is that not only did Lyanna go voluntarily with Rheagar (which is a pretty standard conclusion i gather) but Robert at the very least suspected it.

Also just in general a lot of things are coincidences and even more are certain patterns, ideas, words, concepts etc that permeate the culture aren't references.

Similarly Martin is not transcribing anything, he is at best in every case using it as a foundation for his ideas. That and many i suspect are just plucked out of the air either unconsciously using something as the base for an idea or it being just pure coincidence.

although i do like how there are definitely some very direct references. However bit disappointed there seem to be so many Robert Jordan as he is a terrible writer.

and relax...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New to the forum, love trying to find references, sources, parallels and homages.

Anyone else notice the parallels between Sansa's story and De Sade's Justine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justine_%28Sade%29

Sansa and Justine share the same 'flaws' --

1. Both respond to cruelty with goodness.

2. Both mistake the appearance of virtue with virtue itself.

The story lines also have some similar features, each successive savior turns out to be false and no kindness is ever repaid in kind. And they are the same age.

I think that Martin and De Sade are making the same moral point -- one cannot be a good person in a cruel world. It seems that Sansa is at a turning point -- she can either continue on Justine's path, taking pity on a sickly boy who will betray her kindness, or she can transform herself into De Sade's heroine Juliette by learning what she can from Littlefinger and start treating people like pieces on a chessboard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Histoire_de_Juliette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

probably been mentioned, but Frodo's father is named Drogo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In AGOT at one point when a list of sigils are being described, one of them is "blackadder" with no spacing, which leads me to suspect it's a homage to Blackadder as all the other sigils follow the format of adjective(space)noun.

Edited by Whiskeyjack Targaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In one of the first Jon chapters in Clash of Kings - when they are at Craster's Keep - Samwell Tarly says to Jon "Oh, hullo, Jon". This is the first instance of "hullo" I've seen on my current re-read, and I can't rememember it ever being use by other characters. But it was often used by the hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

I hope this is not a homage to LOTR, though. I hate the idea of fat Samwell Tarly being in any was based on Samwise Gamgee.

There is another possibility, and I like it. After inventing Samwell, GRRM realized the name's similarity to Samwise, and then put in this small homage. Just a little joke, nothing meaningful.

I also heard that in the TV series there is a dialogue between Sam and Pip (Pippin, you see) that also contains a LotR homage, but now I cannot recall it.

Edited by Ser Pistus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is another possibility, and I like it. After inventing Samwell, GRRM realized the name's similarity to Samwise, and then put in this small homage. Just a little joke, nothing meaningful.

I also heard that in the TV series there is a dialogue between Sam and Pip (Pippin, you see) that also contains a LotR homage, but now I cannot recall it.

Sing me a song, Pip? I thought that was really weird on the show, makes sense if it was an homage.

Edited by Hazl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sing me a song, Pip? I thought that was really weird on the show, makes sense if it was an homage.

I don't know any songs for your great Halls Wall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The name "Kettleblack" is clearly a reference to the saying "The pot calling the kettle black." My question is, does this saying exist in Westeros? Was that why the family got this name? Or is it a hint that the Os' will turn out to be hypocrites?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The name "Kettleblack" is clearly a reference to the saying "The pot calling the kettle black." My question is, does this saying exist in Westeros? Was that why the family got this name? Or is it a hint that the Os' will turn out to be hypocrites?

Argh I know this isn't technically the place for it as specified by the OP, but there's a self-reference in AFfC that always kills me.

AFfC spoilers:

At the end of Sam's first chapter, when Jon tells him he's getting snowflakes in his hair and Sam notes a "sad, strange smile," the fact that Sam has no idea what that means but as readers we know Jon is thinking about the last time he saw Robb in Winterfell's courtyard, something about that is so well done and heart-wrenchingly subtle to me. Always loved it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In aGoT, when Tyrion refers to his father as "The Once and Future Hand of the King." Quite a shallow reference to the series "The Once and Future King."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried to read through these for references to Stephen King but didn't see any...sorry if I missed, but here are a few -

Homage: Casterly Rock to Castle Rock, Maine. A fictional town King used almost exclusivley in his early novels as the primary setting. A place where a lot of dark, horrible things happened. See Cujo, The Dead Zone, Christine, and "The Body" which was made into the movie "Stand By Me". The town is ref'd in many many other of his works.

King stated that "Castle Rock" was his homage to Lovecraft's use of small New England towns as the settings for his stories.

Wikkipedia states (interestingly enough):The actual name for the city appears to have been taken from a geographical feature which appears in William Golding's novel Lord of the Flies. This rocky area of the boys' island is where Jack Merridew sets up his rival camp.

Homage/ influence: Devil Grass. Noted the Dothraki felt this weed would one day "Take over the world". Throughout King's The Dark Towerepic, Devil Grass is found all over the place, and grows where nothing else will. It is a weed with effects likend to narcotic when smoked...very very addictive...those who smoke it see "Devils dancing in the smoke"...some are compelled to chew it raw once addicted, and chronic use causes madness and death - hence the Devil Grass "takes one over"

SPOILER - Homage or coincidence: AFfC:

Gilly - Craster's baby mommy/ daughter Sam takes to sea

Throughout The Dark Tower, a "Gilly" is basically a concubine, but specifcally a young woman a man takes outside of his marriage for the purposes of siring an heir (the girl's father is traditionally paid a hansome stipend for such a service)- a little different rules than Westeros. The hero, Roland Deschain, is said to be a direct descendant of Arthur Eld (King Arthur) via one of the King's Gillies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember the specific page, but Mad King Aerys is described as having fingernails that were nine inches long, an obvious reference to the band Nine Inch Nails. Also the Ironborn's saying "What is dead will never die. . . " always reminded me of a line from a Children of Bobom song "Like living dead we'll never die. . .".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×