Cat after the RW [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Lannister Hamster]

Nearly as divisive as where to put the PW is how to tell the story of Catelyn Stark after the PW and where to place the various revelations and storyline developments in terms of the GoT series.

There seems to be two main schools of thought, to show the next chapter in the last episode of Season 3 or push it off until later.

My idea is to put it off as long as possible and use exposition to fill in the back story when relevant rather than showing what happens at the riverbank on screen and leave this storyline hanging, like a fish on the line, for seasons without anything important happening.

Others of you disagree. Let's have a merry debate. Go..

[Lord of Lannisport]

I'm torn on this topic. I think that on the one hand the UnCat reveal would make a great final scene to season 3 (otherwise it doesn't have one) but this has the problem of creating a large cliffhanger that won't be resolved in the next season. Although Breinne's story could be pushed up some to mitigate this problem. On the other hand it could be pushed back until it becomes a more relevant plot line, but that removes it from the RW storyline and will seem too random, unless all throughout season 4 there is buildup of 'Lady Stoneheart.'

I think I would prefer that the Lady Stoneheart reveal is used as the cliffhanger to season 3. Then in season 4, Breinne's KL material is wrapped up early, then after Tyrion's arrest she can leave on her quest only to be accompanied by an escaping Podric (or maybe she could even rescue him). Then her story will end with meeting Lady Stoneheart (I don't think the rest of her story is necessary). Her season 5 arc will be really light, but I'm sure some material could be added (maybe explain why she ends up capturing Jamie, a little extra explanation might be necessary for TV audiences).

Lady Stoneheart has a very hard story arc to adapt to TV.

[Elrond Hubbard]

Leave it for season four. The reveal of Coldhands and/or Dany sacking Astapor will suffice for the season 3 finale.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I'd have the reveal to end Season 4 (with maybe some hints throughout the season). Putting it in Season 3 means putting it just one episode after the wedding, which diminishes the impact IMO. Plus, the showrunners would have to find a whole season's worth of stuff to do for her.

[Jolene Brown]

I have a strong suspicion that they are going to add LS stuff next season. We'll see her before the Brienne storyline kicks in, just hanging Freys and doing other vigilante stuff.

I also think a lot of the Brienne AFFC stuff will work better on tv than in the books (personally I loved it in the books, but whatever), and although they may change the details, they're not going to knock out as much of it as people are hoping.

[Old Man Aegon]

I'd have the reveal to end Season 4 (with maybe some hints throughout the season). Putting it in Season 3 means putting it just one episode after the wedding, which diminishes the impact IMO. Plus, the showrunners would have to find a whole season's worth of stuff to do for her.

First sceen of season 4? Get us some vengeance by hanging freys!

End would be too late. Too much time would have passed for the casual viewers who cant keep stannis and renly apart. They wouldnt remember her :P They'd be like " Wait, didnt she die like in season1?"

[The Snowman]

I read an article from which George said that when the season finale of the upcoming season(season 3) aired he was going into lockdown from the world for a few days. I can only assume the RW will occur in episode 10 which doesn't a lot of time for Cat to be thrown over the Twins and then for Nymeria to drag her out of the Trident and for the BWB to find her. And then do the whole kiss of fire gig. Its possible and it would help the Stark fans keep hope alive.

But I think her reappearance needs to be done like the book while hanging a Frey to it's a double fist pump to end the season.

Just my thoughts

[Dementia]

Not quite: “Judging by the reaction that Ned’s death got when the television audience saw that, I think I’m going to go to some part of the world where they have no television when a certain episode airs, and I’ll hide out and they won’t find me at all,” he said. “I’ll have to hide from the Internet storm as well.”

"..when a certain episode airs.." I'm fairly certain that will still be ep. 9, not 10.

[AdrianAegon]

I read an article from which George said that when the season finale of the upcoming season(season 3) aired he was going into lockdown from the world for a few days. I can only assume the RW will occur in episode 10 which doesn't a lot of time for Cat to be thrown over the Twins and then for Nymeria to drag her out of the Trident and for the BWB to find her. And then do the whole kiss of fire gig. Its possible and it would help the Stark fans keep hope alive.

RW is confirmed to be in ep 9.

Anyhow, Hamster you started a thread linked to the PW S3\S4 :P I made my point there: UnCat as S3 finale! in S4 we can hear from the other characters, talking about a certain Lady Stoneheart and BWB killing people. And probably show her once at the end, in a cameo appearance of Michelle Fairley.(Like Jason Momoa did in S2). I remind you that Mrs. Fairley is part of the regular

cast... I don't think she will become recurring. Once your name appeared in the intro theme (and she is like the third or fourth), you can not appear at the end for more than one (the cameo, special guest star, you name it) ep.

Of course in S5 or 6 she can then return in the regular cast., if the writers decide she can have an expanded story from then on. But until the they can not expand cause she doesn't have much of a story. She becomes a supporting character.. to Brienne, I think, when earlier Brienne was the supporting character to hers.

EDIT: plus, as a fun logistical fact, think about the intro theme earlier mentioned... is so crowded, and S3 is coming: Ciaran Hinds and Diana Rigg will definitely be showed there, plus one, 2,3 more I think! Once Madden and Fairley are out in S4 Oberyn comes, the Greyjoys probably. imagine if they cast very well known actors! Also Gleeson will go after 1 or 2 ep into S4, so more space... we can start a nice thread about this :)) who's in and who's out? :))

[YouSnowNothing]

It's hard. If the ressurection scene is in, it has to be S3. It's there chronologically, and ties up the storyline well. It would feel out of place any later.

But I think another option is playing it as a mystery throughout S4 - "Who is Lady Stoneheart?", "Who is hanging the Freys?", etc. - with the reveal (in the manner of the ASoS epiologue) at the end of S4. I like this, because it doesn't keep us waiting too long for more of LS. If the reveal is at the end of S3 then sure, we can have her and the BWB hanging Freys throughout S4, but then that storyline will remain static, with no twists or new revelations, until near the end of S5, when she'll encounter Brienne (and this is assuming AFFC/ADWD as a single S5, it'd be even longer if these books span S6 as well). I don't like the idea of a story remaining static for 2 years. Keeping the mystery for S4 means we lose the epic S3 climax, but overall, gain a more interesting, less static story.

Some people are suggesting moving Brienne's arc, and that's just not possible. Brienne herself is quite flexible - she's stuck in KL doing very little for a while. The trouble is Jaime. He has to be in the Riverlands to be fetched by Brienne just after the almost-hanging. But Jaime has to stay in KL at least the end of S4, to free Tyrion. Then there's Tywin's funeral and deteriorating relationship with Cersei, all important stuff for him. And most of all, I think it's vital for his development that he burns Cersei's letter before riding off with Brienne. Cersei is not going to be arrested until late-S5 at the earliest, so Brienne's plot can't climax until that same time. The Brienne/BWB/LS meeting is going to happen in late S5 (again, assuming a combined AFFC/ADWD S5), that's pretty much carved in stone, so all we can do is work around that.

[Javi Marcos]

It's hard. If the ressurection scene is in, it has to be S3. It's there chronologically, and ties up the storyline well. It would feel out of place any later.

But I think another option is playing it as a mystery throughout S4 - "Who is Lady Stoneheart?", "Who is hanging the Freys?", etc. - with the reveal (in the manner of the ASoS epiologue) at the end of S4. I like this, because it doesn't keep us waiting too long for more of LS. If the reveal is at the end of S3 then sure, we can have her and the BWB hanging Freys throughout S4, but then that storyline will remain static, with no twists or new revelations, until near the end of S5, when she'll encounter Brienne (and this is assuming AFFC/ADWD as a single S5, it'd be even longer if these books span S6 as well). I don't like the idea of a story remaining static for 2 years. Keeping the mystery for S4 means we lose the epic S3 climax, but overall, gain a more interesting, less static story.

Some people are suggesting moving Brienne's arc, and that's just not possible. Brienne herself is quite flexible - she's stuck in KL doing very little for a while. The trouble is Jaime. He has to be in the Riverlands to be fetched by Brienne just after the almost-hanging. But Jaime has to stay in KL at least the end of S4, to free Tyrion. Then there's Tywin's funeral and deteriorating relationship with Cersei, all important stuff for him. And most of all, I think it's vital for his development that he burns Cersei's letter before riding off with Brienne. Cersei is not going to be arrested until late-S5 at the earliest, so Brienne's plot can't climax until that same time. The Brienne/BWB/LS meeting is going to happen in late S5 (again, assuming a combined AFFC/ADWD S5), that's pretty much carved in stone, so all we can do is work around that.

I disagree. Brienne could be hanging around (no pun intended) searching Jaime, with no presence in TV.

I see this planning quite likely:

Season 3:

Episode 10 ends with UnCat. But we'll only see her resurrected by Beric, we won't see her killing Freys. After that, Beric disappears of the casting and Michelle Fairley would disappear of the credits and will appear only in cameos.

Season 4

Brienne leaves King's Landing around Episodes 5. In her travel, pretty condensed (5 episodes, she just meets Pod, Hyle Hunt, goes to Quiet Island and in episode 9 she 'd fight in the Inn VS Rorge and Biter) we'll see hanged Freys and the smallfolk will tell her some stories about Lady Stoneheart.

In Episode 10 we'd see her last chapter of AFFC. Fairley appears in that episode as a cameo.

Season 5

No Brienne this season. Gwedoline Christie will appear as a cameo meeting Jaime.

Here is the key: Jaime's full arc of AFFC and ADWD will appear in this season.

Frankly, Jaime isn't really important this season. I picture his job that season as something like that.

- He leaves King's Landing in episode 2 or 3.

- Meets Lancel, trains with Payne.

- 2 episodes in Riverrun (6 and 7, maybe). The ending of that chapter is Jaime burning Cersei's letter.

- In episode 9 we'll see his chapter of ADWD. Here Brienne comes back.

[YouSnowNothing]

So you'd have Brienne, a major character, off-screen for an entire series? Literally not doing anything except heading towards Jaime? Not only that, but since her story ends on a cliffhanger, we won't know her fate for an entire year. That's frustrating enough for book readers, but it's unforgivable on a TV show. I do not see that situation working at all.

[HomeGrownCrown]

I liked my original season 3 ending (posted on the previously mentioned thread). I think the most obvious place on screen to reveal Lady Stoneheart is at the end of an episode (or season) following the words "Only Cat"

[The Dragon has three heads]

Leave it for season four. The reveal of Coldhands and/or Dany sacking Astapor will suffice for the season 3 finale.

Exactly.

Tht way you can hear, through Briennes quest and in KL about "this murdering witch lady stone heart" and then in ep 9 or ten, peel back that hood.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Double post

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

It's certainly a possibility to keep the reveal back, but then you need to tread carefully not to let it appear as a deus ex machina when Cat/Stoneheart reappears. I'd be intrigued by this way forward and think it could work. After all, the show is crowded yet and some space to breathe is always good. Here's what I think their decision should be based on in any case: Character Interaction. Character talking to each other is at the heart of the show, it's why many are watching (a Fantasya series!, you may add): Tyrion-Cersei, Varys-Littlefinger, Arya-Tywin. The one interesting thing with Dany is Dany-Jorah, all the rest was criticized heavily, no?

So whatever they chose to do, they need to emphasize character interactions in my mind. Now the obvious problem with the Lady Stoneheart reveal is that there's nothing that follows out of it. Stoneheart just hangs Freys, gets old crowns and then? We're not so far yet, but this is one arc for a character. And you can't really drag that out for 3 seasons...

If they have the reveal at the end of season 3, they can have it as a end ot the arc, but then we should see that it's not Catelyn anymore I'd guess. Another option is to change Season 4 radically and create a character interaction that's not in the books. Stoneheart for example could meet Arya at the Brotherhood (before the Hound kidnaps Arya again...). Lots of Drama and a shitstorm of the book purists of course, but lots of television drama, no? Another option is to pull the Riverrun plot forward and have her meet the Blackfish or Talisa once again.

Going back to my point about character interaction. This is way I'd think its best to keep Brienne in Kings Landing for a time. You can have her talk to Cersei, MArgaery, the guy that tells her to go home (Randyll tarly in the books), Pod and of course prolong anything with Loras. I even could see some fun coming out of interactions with Varys or what the hell, Ros. ;) Brienne's story is unique in that you can change a lot here. They need to use that opportunity to create good television.

[YouSnowNothing]

Going back to my point about character interaction. This is way I'd think its best to keep Brienne in Kings Landing for a time. You can have her talk to Cersei, Margaery, the guy that tells her to go home (Randyll tarly in the books), Pod and of course prolong anything with Loras. I even could see some fun coming out of interactions with Varys or what the hell, Ros. ;) Brienne's story is unique in that you can change a lot here. They need to use that opportunity to create good television.

I absolutely agree with this. I confess I would give my left arm for a Brienne/Cersei scene. There are just so many parallels between the two characters, so much potential for fascinating interaction, way beyond even the Jaime thing (though Jaime will of course be an issue to, who here thinks a TV show will pass up the opportunity to delve into this quasi-love-triangle?). And the potential interaction with Loras and Margaery could be brilliant also. I think they should capitalise on the opportunity to keep her interacting with the many well-known characters of King's Landing for as long as possible, rather than her slightly aimless, isolated wandering around the Riverlands.

[protar]

So you'd have Brienne, a major character, off-screen for an entire series? Literally not doing anything except heading towards Jaime? Not only that, but since her story ends on a cliffhanger, we won't know her fate for an entire year. That's frustrating enough for book readers, but it's unforgivable on a TV show. I do not see that situation working at all.

The alternative is to have her disappear in S4, and worse, for no real important reason. I'd rather she had some presence in S4, and then dramatically disappeared till the end of S5. How is that a problem? Hell they could move some of her and Jaime's TWOW material forwards if they really want (assuming a 2014 release for Winds and a 2015 release for S5.). Moving Brienne forwards is the most dramatically logical option.

[protar]

It's certainly a possibility to keep the reveal back, but then you need to tread carefully not to let it appear as a deus ex machina when Cat/Stoneheart reappears. I'd be intrigued by this way forward and think it could work. After all, the show is crowded yet and some space to breathe is always good. Here's what I think their decision should be based on in any case: Character Interaction. Character talking to each other is at the heart of the show, it's why many are watching (a Fantasya series!, you may add): Tyrion-Cersei, Varys-Littlefinger, Arya-Tywin. The one interesting thing with Dany is Dany-Jorah, all the rest was criticized heavily, no?

So whatever they chose to do, they need to emphasize character interactions in my mind. Now the obvious problem with the Lady Stoneheart reveal is that there's nothing that follows out of it. Stoneheart just hangs Freys, gets old crowns and then? We're not so far yet, but this is one arc for a character. And you can't really drag that out for 3 seasons...

If they have the reveal at the end of season 3, they can have it as a end ot the arc, but then we should see that it's not Catelyn anymore I'd guess. Another option is to change Season 4 radically and create a character interaction that's not in the books. Stoneheart for example could meet Arya at the Brotherhood (before the Hound kidnaps Arya again...). Lots of Drama and a shitstorm of the book purists of course, but lots of television drama, no? Another option is to pull the Riverrun plot forward and have her meet the Blackfish or Talisa once again.

Going back to my point about character interaction. This is way I'd think its best to keep Brienne in Kings Landing for a time. You can have her talk to Cersei, MArgaery, the guy that tells her to go home (Randyll tarly in the books), Pod and of course prolong anything with Loras. I even could see some fun coming out of interactions with Varys or what the hell, Ros. ;) Brienne's story is unique in that you can change a lot here. They need to use that opportunity to create good television.

But why does Uncat need a character arc? She really doesn't, though I agree she shouldn't go for too long without doing anything. So by revealing her in S4, there is then not too large a gap before S5 were the start of Jaime's TWOW material can be moved forwards and she gets a bit of a larger role.

Regarding Brienne, I know a lot of people like to say that new scenes can be inserted with her talking to other characters, but really what is there to talk about? Cersei and Brienne certainly would make an interesting dynamic, but there's no framework for that dynamic to take place and anything D+D invents will inevitably be of lesser quality than the books, and will lead nowhere as they don't want to completely depart from the books. Even if D+D do manage to invent some scenes with Brienne in KL which are interesting, meaningful, and don't cause a major departure from the books, it would be fodder for no more than a couple of scenes, which could be inserted into the first half of S4 before Jaime sends her off.

[lozeldatkm]

I'm torn on this topic. I think that on the one hand the UnCat reveal would make a great final scene to season 3 (otherwise it doesn't have one) but this has the problem of creating a large cliffhanger that won't be resolved in the next season

What do you mean problem? That's EXACTLY what the producers want to do. Cliffhanging season finales make for bigger next season premiers. That's why UnCat was revealed at the end of Storm, so people would desperately want to read Feast to see what would happen. To me, putting her at the end of season 4 is the only thing that makes sense.