Cat after the RW [BOOK SPOILERS]

[YouSnowNothing]

The alternative is to have her disappear in S4, and worse, for no real important reason.

She wouldn't, she'd be in KL, interacting with other characters. Slightly more in the background, but still present.

I'd rather she had some presence in S4, and then dramatically disappeared till the end of S5. How is that a problem?

You don't think it might be a problem to have a cliffhanger at the end of a series, tell viewers to wait a year so that their expectations and eagerness are sky-high, then not resolve the cliffhanger when the show returns, instead waiting until the end of that series? I don't know how to explain why that would be unsatisfactory.

Hell they could move some of her and Jaime's TWOW material forwards if they really want (assuming a 2014 release for Winds and a 2015 release for S5.).

But this massively compresses Jaime's and Cersei's stories. I don't see how they can bring any of Jaime/Brienne's WoW material forward without bringing the whole of the LS plot forward, which is probably at least half a season's worth of material. So you're trying to squash almost 3 books worth of material for Jaime into one season. It would leave him with only a couple of episodes for the Tyrion aftermath/Tywin's funeral/Cersei interaction, and only a couple more for everything that happens in the Riverlands. And it drags Cersei's storyline forward too, meaning she has to go absolutely bananas in only a few episodes and get arrested by episode 4. And this also drags the entire KL plot forward, a lynchpin of the series, which impacts on Aegon/Dany's inevitable invasions, the possible ripple-effects of the KL instability upon other players (e.g. Stannis, LF). It basically throws a big part of the plot out of whack solely for the purpose of moving Brienne's storyline forward (and, on the whole, actually giving her less to do).

Regarding Brienne, I know a lot of people like to say that new scenes can be inserted with her talking to other characters, but really what is there to talk about? Cersei and Brienne certainly would make an interesting dynamic, but there's no framework for that dynamic to take place and anything D+D invents will inevitably be of lesser quality than the books, and will lead nowhere as they don't want to completely depart from the books. Even if D+D do manage to invent some scenes with Brienne in KL which are interesting, meaningful, and don't cause a major departure from the books, it would be fodder for no more than a couple of scenes, which could be inserted into the first half of S4 before Jaime sends her off.

All these scenes can deal with Brienne's arc. They can focus on the idea of her being pretty lost for purpose after she finds out that the woman she swore allegiance to is dead and her daughters lost. In fact, her being at a loose end, milling around in KL, fits well with this theme.

Her scenes with Loras or any other Tyrell will reflect on her time in Renly's service, how she felt back then, how she has changed since then, her changing ideas of honour, her love for Renly contrasted with her feelings for Jaime. Essentially, dealing with her past and what has changed since then. Her scene with Cersei can deal with her issues surrouning gender - gender is a major theme of both characters, regarding how they have been treated and how that has affected them. They can also play up Cersei's increasing paranoia with her interactions with a potential romantic rival, and show how Brienne feels regarding Cersei.

None of this is adding new stuff. But it's not fodder. It's taking stuff that's in the books - Brienne's conflictions regarding her changing ideas of honour and service, the romantic entanglements of Loras/Renly/Brienne/Jaime/Cersei, Brienne's aimlessness and not really knowing what to do - and simply deals with them in a more active and engaging way. We can dig into these issues through character interaction rather than the inner thoughts of characters. If that's your idea of "fodder", then 90% of the show is fodder.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

But why does Uncat need a character arc? She really doesn't, though I agree she shouldn't go for too long without doing anything. So by revealing her in S4, there is then not too large a gap before S5 were the start of Jaime's TWOW material can be moved forwards and she gets a bit of a larger role.

Yes, she doesn't. I was adressing the problem that having her revived as a finale for season 3 might create expectations that can't be followed when we don't see her for a long time. And I certainly feel a sole scene of her hanging a Frey is rubbish and other characters talking about her is like a Chekov's Gun that will not get fired for nearly two seasons. So the problem is including that reviving scene as a ender to the season 3 arc of changing the story in a way that gives Lady Stoneheart more of a front place by having her interact with other characters. Maybe have her hang Talisa for all its worth. I lean to the first option btw., we certainly don't need to see the epilogue of ASOS on screen if we get the reviving scene. But they can realistically go both ways.

Regarding Brienne, I know a lot of people like to say that new scenes can be inserted with her talking to other characters, but really what is there to talk about? Cersei and Brienne certainly would make an interesting dynamic, but there's no framework for that dynamic to take place and anything D+D invents will inevitably be of lesser quality than the books, and will lead nowhere as they don't want to completely depart from the books. Even if D+D do manage to invent some scenes with Brienne in KL which are interesting, meaningful, and don't cause a major departure from the books, it would be fodder for no more than a couple of scenes, which could be inserted into the first half of S4 before Jaime sends her off.

I don't agree that "everything D+D invents will inevitably be of lesser quality than the book". Yes, they don't want to change major plot points and want to arrive at the same story arc end, more or less. But those scenes wouldn't be about bringing the plot forward, they are about characterization. What television (and good actors) does much better than the books is humans. Take Shae. In the books, we see her from Tyrions PoV and it takes some effort to see past her dizyness, before we can see that maybe (!!) for her, the affair with Tyrion is nothing more than business (while for him, it's much much more). Now okay, television changes that somehow in that they gave her compassion towards Sansa. Still, we don't know yet if TV!Shae is as much in love with Tyrion as Tyrion is with her.

Long story short, the point of those scenes, f.e. Cersei/Brienne, would be discussing misogyny in Westeros, the role woman can play as knights in Game of Thrones and Cersei realizing she might be losing Jaime. As for the arc, keep in mind, that the Purple Wedding will take up quite a lot of early season 4. Brienne would be preoccupied with the Tyrells at the start, then get the quest from Jaime, go on to interrogate Shae and Pod, and only then leave. The problem is where to fit Cersei in there. But that's doable ;) I'm not suggesting scrapping her travels, but move a good part of them to Kings Landing,

[protar]

She wouldn't, she'd be in KL, interacting with other characters. Slightly more in the background, but still present.

Appearing in pointless, boring scenes or not at all. Drama over filler please.

You don't think it might be a problem to have a cliffhanger at the end of a series, tell viewers to wait a year so that their expectations and eagerness are sky-high, then not resolve the cliffhanger when the show returns, instead waiting until the end of that series? I don't know how to explain why that would be unsatisfactory.

Well whatever way it's done that will be the situation. If Uncat is in S3 then audiences will (by your model) have to wait until S5 to have any meaningful role in the plot.

No I'm suggesting his AFFC material plus his 1 ADWD chapter and maybe a couple TWOW chapters. I think it possible that S5 could be a 12 episode deal, meaning that things are also not as compressed.

[YouSnowNothing]

Well whatever way it's done that will be the situation. If Uncat is in S3 then audiences will (by your model) have to wait until S5 to have any meaningful role in the plot.

That's why I suggest she doesn't appear until the end of S4.

No I'm suggesting his AFFC material plus his 1 ADWD chapter and maybe a couple TWOW chapters. I think it possible that S5 could be a 12 episode deal, meaning that things are also not as compressed.

It's likely that his first couple of WoW chapters will be a lead-up to the LS confrontation (or a diversion into a different plot). Either way, it's bringing up a new plot and cutting out before the climax. You really have to bring in the whole storyline or not at all, or it just leaves us at a strange odd end at the end of S5, with the climax suddenly at the start of S6.

Again, if we get a 12 episode season there'll be plenty of time to keep the story going at a decent pace.

It's not about pacing, it's about the timeline. Pulling Brienne forwards pulls Jaime forwards, pulls Cersei forward, pulls KL forwards, pulls the entire series forward. The ripple-effect of moving Brienne's fetching of Jaime throws the entire series timeline out of whack.

Do me a little exercise then. Plot out let's say 7 different, interesting scenes of Brienne in prison, interacting with various characters. I used to harp on about themes D+D could use to pad out plot lines, but when you actually plot things out it doesn't work. There's not enough material there for more than 2 or 3 scenes without things beginning to seem trite and expositional.

IIRC, Brienne isn't in prison as such in KL. She's nominally a prisoner, but she's kept in comfortable quarters. She can interact pretty freely with other characters. And the longer she spends in KL, the less she'll be treated as a prisoner, the more she'll be treated as just someone who happens to be hanging around.

1) Brienne finds out about the RW and reacts to the death of her liege lady. Show her grief and sudden lack of purpose.

2) Cersei talks to Brienne about the treatment she's recieved based on gender. Delve into both characters' backgrounds.

3) Cersei confronts Brienne about her relationship with Jaime. Play up the jealousy and love-triangle aspect.

4) Scene with Loras that shows both their grief. Loras realises Brienne's feelings and becomes much less sure that she murdered him. They empathise with each others' grief.

5) Scene with Margaery. Brienne is secretly angry with Marg for betraying Renly. Parallel Marg's (comparatively emotionless and ambition-based) switch of allegiance from Renly to Tommen to Brienne's unintentional but implicit switch of allegiance from Renly, to Catelyn, to Jaime.

6) Scene with Hyle Hunt or similar characters when she considers her options and the possibility of going home, settling down and getting married. Show her options and lack of focused purpose.

7) More bonding with Jaime. Further his drifting away from Cersei.

None of them seem trite or repetitive to me. They all draw upong things present in the text and expand upon them in an interesting way.

I'm still confused though as to why you think Brienne being somewhat static but present and interacting with others for a season is so much worse than her literally being completely, with the audience having no idea whether she's alive or dead, or what she's doing all this time, for an entire season.

[Padraig]

No I'm suggesting his AFFC material plus his 1 ADWD chapter and maybe a couple TWOW chapters. I think it possible that S5 could be a 12 episode deal, meaning that things are also not as compressed.

Again, if we get a 12 episode season there'll be plenty of time to keep the story going at a decent pace.

A few major assumptions there. I don't want to get into this but its unlikely we'll see tWoW in 2014. And there is still nothing to suppose we'll get a 12 episode season either.

We don't need Brienne in lots of scenes, although the scenes suggested are certainly not pointless or boring.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Yeah 2014 is utter wishful thinking.

Anyone that thinks the show will be moving faster not slower in terms of the books is in for a rude shock.

It's necessary to Hold up some arcs and push others who have chapters/charactors in all five books.

I reckon Danny and Jon will get less screen time because of it, but overall I'm ok with that if it gives GRRM more time to get the books done...

[Lannister Hamster]

The main problem with Brienne in the short term is that her and Jaime don't re-enter the story until after the PW.

After the PW she can have meaningful scenes with other characters like Loras. The main problem with Brienne is how to convey her journey looking for Sansa in AFFC and ADWD - one of the most unpopular parts of the book, IMO. Starting it in Season 4 isn't an answer though. I think a better solution would be to delay her departure from KL as long as possible, potentially giving her a storyline which looks at the place of a female knight in KL.

[jarl the climber]

The main problem with Brienne in the short term is that her and Jaime don't re-enter the story until after the PW.

After the PW she can have meaningful scenes with other characters like Loras. The main problem with Brienne is how to convey her journey looking for Sansa in AFFC and ADWD - one of the most unpopular parts of the book, IMO. Starting it in Season 4 isn't an answer though. I think a better solution would be to delay her departure from KL as long as possible, potentially giving her a storyline which looks at the place of a female knight in KL.

The first thing that happened when she showed up is that Ser Loras had her locked up for offing Renly. They could keep her on ice for awhile as well.

[Dogs]

I think the thing is that if Cat gets revived at the end of season 3 it needs to be established that it is not Cat, but Lady Stoneheart, who is not a character anymore per se, but a horrible abomination bent solely on vengeance. Hanging Freys mercilessly in the epilogue of A storm of swords established that, but just reviving her and her eyes opening may create an unrealistic expectation that she is alive and well again. I think if it is somehow emphasized in that final scene that she is indeed a crazy homicidal zombie lady and not the ol' children-loving Family-Duty-Honour Catelyn Tully, then it will work. That is what I'm hoping for.

If she is established as a monster and not a character, then there is less expectation to return to her and I don't see any issues about not immediately showing her again in season 4, and subsequently in other seasons, since when she actually appears she appears fleetingly.

Moving up Brienne's travels throughout the riverlands to season 4 then makes sense also, as she could learn secondhand about Lady Stoneheart, her mercilessness, Frey hangings, etc. and thereby escalate suspense. And then near the end of season 4 she gets caught by the new brotherhood without banners, and gets hanged, and like the cliffhanger in A Feast For Crows, you don't know if Brienne lives or not. And if they don't show Brienne being alive at the start of season 5 it then comes as a surpise when she comes to visit Jaimie at the end of his campaign in the riverlands (I guess at the end of season 5ish?).

The absense of Brienne for most of a season I guess is a loose end, but it makes the most sense, keeping her fate in ambiguity or maybe getting the audience to accept her as dead. But I find speculating beyond season 4 pretty useless because we just don't know the showmakers' intentions when it comes to adapting book 4 and 5, and then we also don't know what happens in book 6 or how long it will be.