Barristan Selmy's honor

[Blackfish Tully]

Nope. Pretty sure we're all in agreement there that it'd be overly idealistic to expect anything more of Barristan the Bold than him accepting the title of LC and serving alongside the false brother without more than a few muttered why I oughtas.

Actually we are not in agreement with that . i have no problem with him serving in Robert's Kingsguard. It's much better than going to serve a psycho like Viserys.

[Blackfish Tully]

And, as I said, he's now helping the Queen of Meereen to prepare the invasion of Westeros, so he's still a traitor.

at one time or another nearly every character in this story was a traitor to one King or another . It's impossible not to be when you have a war of five Kings and now a war of three Queens.

[Ser Lepus]

at one time or another nearly every character in this story was a traitor to one King or another . It's impossible not to be when you have a war of five Kings and now a war of three Queens.

But who is the rightful king in Barristan's mind? The Targayren heir, or the king who actually sits on the Iron Throne? They can't be both, so at some point he has betrayed the rightful king/queen.

[Summer is Ending]

Actually we are not in agreement with that . i have no problem with him serving in Robert's Kingsguard. It's much better than going to serve a psycho like Viserys.

Exactly. Again in agreement. Barristan the Bold found his natural level and there he served alongside the kingslayer. Nobody expects anything different from him.

[MagnusPrime]

We are not in agreement. Some of us do not think of him as cowardly. nor do we think of him as simple. Barristan knows what a knight is deep down: a trained killer.

I cannot fault him for having to serve alongside Jaime. we do not know if he choose to serve in Robert's Kingsguard before the issue of Jaime was resolved or not. Tywin was probably thinking that Jaime would be released from his vows and come back home. Robert and Jon Arryn probably had the notion of keeping Jaime in. Ned we know feel that Jaime should have been punished. Hell Ned believes that Tywin should have been reprimanded for his troops actions in the Sack of Kingslanding and punished along with Gregor and Lorch for the deaths of Elia and the children.

[otherbeef]

But who is the rightful king in Barristan's mind? The Targayren heir, or the king who actually sits on the Iron Throne? They can't be both, so at some point he has betrayed the rightful king/queen.

i'm a bit confused, are you saying Barristan had more honor when he defended the Mad King until the end, rather than protect innocent people from that same Mad King, than when he did by NOT serve Viserys, who he knew was another Mad King in the making?

The only thing i see that you can criticize Barristan for is defending Aerys. Accepting the pardon and joining Robert was the morally right thing to do.

[SicBoy]

I think Selmy was put in several very tough and ambiguous spots. To take Roberts pardon or not? Is Roberts truly the King now or is it his duty to go to Viserys? Enforce the old Kings will? Which he wouldn't have been able to do anyways in the presence of so many Lannister pawns. I personally think he should have died on the trident. All of his brothers, friends, and prince died there or at the ToJ. He sort of betrayed their memory in that respect. At the very least he should have asked to take the black, there is no excuse for not doing that. I do think he can be redeemed though. One thing that I would find very interesting would be Daynes, Whents, and Hightowers reaction to Selmy taking Roberts pardon. They were loyalty personified. The epitome of keeping to a vow. I think they would have been horrified.

[Ser Lepus]

i'm a bit confused, are you saying Barristan had more honor when he defended the Mad King until the end, rather than protect innocent people from that same Mad King, than when he did by NOT serve Viserys, who he knew was another Mad King in the making?

The only thing i see that you can criticize Barristan for is defending Aerys. Accepting the pardon and joining Robert was the morally right thing to do.

Read the post I was quoting and my post please:

The asterisk will be known by few maesters. Most people will remember him fighting. It's not his eternal memory we're arguing, it's his responsibility towards the Targaryen dynasty. I believe he had responsibility to the king. He fulfilled it to the very end. Viserys is not the rightful king because the Iron Throne is occupied.

If he were from a vassal house of the Targaryen, I'd agree that he had further responsibilities.

And, as I said, he's now helping the Queen of Meereen to prepare the invasion of Westeros, so he's still a traitor.

at one time or another nearly every character in this story was a traitor to one King or another . It's impossible not to be when you have a war of five Kings and now a war of three Queens.

But who is the rightful king in Barristan's mind? The Targayren heir, or the king who actually sits on the Iron Throne? They can't be both, so at some point he has betrayed the rightful king/queen.

Straits argued that Barristan's loyalty is to whoever sits on the Iron Throne, regardless of his blood. And I answered that, if he thinks that the Baratheons are the rightful kings now, then he has become a traitor against the Iron Throne when he chose to help Dany gather a foreign army to conquer Westeros.

Ser Barristan can't pretend that it's is honourable to support BOTH the Baratheons and the Targayrens. One must be the real royal house and the others mere pretenders. Blood or Right of Conquest, he must choose. But Ser Barristan wavers and picks whoever is more convenient for him.

About what you said of his honor, I think it wasn't honourable to serve Aerys while he was doing those horrible things, but what is perceived as honourable changes from culture to culture and even from person to person. Maybe Ser Barristan really believed that the honourable thing to do was to keep serving Aerys, or maybe he was just afraid that Aerys would kill him if he refused to serve.

But Ser Barristan picked again the most convenient view on honour: He chose to serve the Mad King, who was in power and doing horrible things, and later ditched Viserys (who could be mad or not, he didn't know) who was an exile, swearing loyalty to Robert. He later decides that the Targayren aren't so bad (he still didn't know that Viserys was dead then, and didn't know what was Daenerys made of) and goes to join them in order to help them fight his Baratheon liege.

That's what I meant when I said "But who is the rightful king in Barristan's mind? The Targayren heir, or the king who actually sits on the Iron Throne? They can't be both, so at some point he has betrayed the rightful king/queen".

And remember, if he isn't sure about who is the rightful king, or about his duty, he can try to escape somehow, to serve neither the Targayren nor the Baratheons, but he prefers to serve both of them instead, ensuring that he fights the rightful king regardless of who is the rightful king.

[The Faceless Bard]

To all the Bari haters think on this; when we finally get to see him throw down with the pit fighter khrazz, his first thought is (paraphrased) " This is what I was I meant for"

He's a fighter first, and he'll be the first one to tell you that.

[Summer is Ending]

We are not in agreement. Some of us do not think of him as cowardly. nor do we think of him as simple. Barristan knows what a knight is deep down: a trained killer.

I cannot fault him for having to serve alongside Jaime. we do not know if he choose to serve in Robert's Kingsguard before the issue of Jaime was resolved or not. Tywin was probably thinking that Jaime would be released from his vows and come back home. Robert and Jon Arryn probably had the notion of keeping Jaime in. Ned we know feel that Jaime should have been punished. Hell Ned believes that Tywin should have been reprimanded for his troops actions in the Sack of Kingslanding and punished along with Gregor and Lorch for the deaths of Elia and the children.

That's great we're all on the same page here. He is what he is. We don't expect Samwell to be Ser Arthur Dayne so why should we hold it against Barristan the Bold for making the safe choice.

[straits]

Indeed. Why should Barristan be anything other than his indecisive, politically passive self? Ned wasn't Brandon. Sansa isn't Arya. Dany is no Rhaegar. And Barry isn't Dayne (funny that the KG in its hayday did not have a single knight who thought it was wrong that Aerys raped his queen). If Barry were written to fight to the end, survive due to mercy and then run away and loyally follow Targ exiles, he'd be in the 'recycled as fuck' character category. Not to mention that it would make Robert's mercy worthless to his cause.

[Summer is Ending]

It's interesting that Rhaegar didn't consider him as trustworthy as the Sword of the Morning.

Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

If I'm remembering right the new app says that Rhaegar took Dayne and Whent when he went to take Lyanna but that's almost a year later right? So what was it about Harrenhal that finally forced him to realize Rhaegar didn't trust him?

[Arkantos]

Maybe Rhaegar didn't trust Barristan because he risked so much to rescue Aerys when none of the other KG would, might've thought he was his father's cats paw.

[Summer is Ending]

You are a clever imp, just as Varys said, and Daenerys will have need of clever men about her. Ser Barristan is a valiant knight and true; but none, I think, has ever called him cunning.”

That's three men Varys has sent to Dany. Brains, brawn and the hairy bear. Maybe he's going to be the root cause of her three betrayals.

[DerekBrink]

this just makes no sense. So you are blasting his honor for what? Because he bent the knee and didn't want to die?

But who is the rightful king in Barristan's mind? The Targayren heir, or the king who actually sits on the Iron Throne? They can't be both, so at some point he has betrayed the rightful king/queen.

how can you betray someone who dismisses you from their service and then trys to have you murdered?

Also there is no rightful king. The Targaryens don't own the throne. They took the throne just like Robert took the throne.

[DerekBrink]

Sure, he was wounded. But, he knew that Viserys was alive and chose to do absolutely nothing about it. Then, he learned that Robert wanted Dany killed and he chose to remain silent, offering a feeble protest only when asked. He preferred to let Ned be the one to actually argue for what was right.

As Summer is Ending alluded to previously, he's brave on the battlefield itself and in an actual fight, but he's the opposite everywhere else.

so what should he have done? Fought an entire war by himself.

You are confusing bravery with stupidity. Contrary to belief being a knight does not make you immune to valuing your own life.

[Stannis Gotta Stan]

question... when Bari hears about Aegon... will he have to switch sides again? As far as he would know Aegon would have the best claim, making any attempt by Dany to take the throne treason...

what does Bari do?

[GallowsKnight]

That's great we're all on the same page here. He is what he is. We don't expect Samwell to be Ser Arthur Dayne so why should we hold it against Barristan the Bold for making the safe choice.

Because the rest of westeros (and he himself) seem to view him as Dayne's equal in honour and prowess.

[DerekBrink]

question... when Bari hears about Aegon... will he have to switch sides again? As far as he would know Aegon would have the best claim, making any attempt by Dany to take the throne treason...

what does Bari do?

Aegon is a Blackfyre most likely so probably stick with Dany. If Aegon isn't a Blackfyre I don't see any reason why he and Dany would not team up.

[DerekBrink]

Because the rest of westeros (and he himself) seem to view him as Dayne's equal in honour and prowess.

no they don't. They view him as the most honorable knight right now and with how corrupt most KG members are it's probably true.