Jon,the Wights and the Others.( a crackpot)

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah a coma, but to the people around him he will in all intent and purposes be dead.I agree with you in the sense that his warging abilities will protect his consciousnesses but to a person on the outside he will be nothing more than a shell.Drogo himself was in a coma he probably got Clostridium tetani bacterium( tetanus) via his wound which resulted in his ("death like state) but in his case there was no safe haven for his consciousnesses

[wolfmaid7]

A court of law would not find a Wight guilty via evil intent; rather guilty via mental illness or defect.

There's too many cracks in your pot for me to follow. The dead men Lord Snow had been keeping in the ice cells din't (or haden't yet) turned into Wights, so I believe whatever fate awaits our favorite bastard will develope before his hands turn black.

Don't know that the courts would be relevant at all, my assertion was that evil does not apply to them because they have no will and are subjects to be used as tools by who ever has the power to control them. I amended my description of Jon as a Wight because he will have his consciousness because it will be safe in Ghost.My thinking for the men in the cells is that they are dead Jon is not and what ever power is in the wall is preventing that.Jon is a different case because from where i sit he isn't dead just in a coma.

I don't know how long Jon will be in the cell but bodies exposed to extreme cold does not remain "fleshed tone" these people who are animated are done so in frost bitten bodies( black hands) their eyes being blue is something else-that may be because of cold symbolism.Who is to say when Jon returns to his body- that is presumed dead, put in a cold storage- when he returns it won't be altered-minus the black hands and feet-

what i'm saying is that there is a possibility -because of the conditions he was placed in,if Bran's vision is true-that when he comes back he doesn't look like Jon which can cause a frightful stir if you know what i mean.He may look like a wight

[Lion of Judah]

I doubt that he needs resurrecting, until I read he is dead I will believe he is alive.

[Runaway Penguin]

Yeah a coma, but to the people around him he will in all intent and purposes be dead.I agree with you in the sense that his warging abilities will protect his consciousnesses but to a person on the outside he will be nothing more than a shell.Drogo himself was in a coma he probably got Clostridium tetani bacterium( tetanus) via his wound which resulted in his ("death like state) but in his case there was no safe haven for his consciousnesses

His body will be alive. Thus no wighting, no need for kiss of fire and no need for ice cell - also no need for all the unpleasant results of these methods of "revival".

Important distinction. Injured, body in a vegetative state... Means that he would be able to come back as human as it gets. Without Beric's emptiness, UnCat's thirst for blood or wight's sub-zero temperature...

[wolfmaid7]

His body will be alive. Thus no wighting, no need for kiss of fire and no need for ice cell - also no need for all the unpleasant results of these methods of "revival".

Important distinction. Injured, body in a vegetative state... Means that he would be able to come back as human as it gets. Without Beric's emptiness, UnCat's thirst for blood or wight's sub-zero temperature...

I can by that ,one can hope that he's seriously injured and just unconscious. Yet i must admit Bran's vision has me a bit on the fence as to the state of Jon,and his visions haven't been wrong thus far.

[wolfmaid7]

His body will be alive. Thus no wighting, no need for kiss of fire and no need for ice cell - also no need for all the unpleasant results of these methods of "revival".

Important distinction. Injured, body in a vegetative state... Means that he would be able to come back as human as it gets. Without Beric's emptiness, UnCat's thirst for blood or wight's sub-zero temperature...

I agree with you up until the wight's temp, i got nothing to go on except Bran's vision, a lot of symbolism and my gut.It will be interesting to see how GRRM works it.I'm not saying he'll be a wight not that at all just altered enough where they can't perceive him,think he's possibly one of them. I'm also drawing certain conclusions based on his own dreams on the wall. I'll look for it and post it.

[stu1987]

Part of me kinda likes the idea of Jon stealing wights from the Others by warging them. It would also be consistent with his character's development of having to do 'bad' things for a good cause.

I still believe that he'll be back as Jon though, perhaps the wildlings will smuggle his body North of the Wall in order to be revived/wighted in order for him to warg into it. Maybe with a few side effects(blue eyes and what not).

The Bran vision was interesting. I don't buy into this, but he effectively witnesses John die/turn into a wight and then the crow says this is why you must live, because winter is coming. It could be viewed that winter/evil is Jon and he Bran will have to help stop him. Again, I don't believe this but maybe it shouldn't be overlooked.

[Black Crow]

Bran's vision was in real time, not a prophecy.

[wolfmaid7]

I have to concur with BC on this Bran was in real time which is what led me to this conclusion. Also, in Jon's dream when he was on the wall throwing off the others his description of himself-if someone can find it please post i don't have ADWD with me-Some people have suggested that he was wearing some kind of Obsidian type armor but what if he wasn't.

Also, does anyone have any more info about the Night's king who married a wight woman beyond the wall.All we know of wights how is this possible ? Was there something different about her? I know some men like their women silent,compliant etc.Can you guys see where i'm going with this?

I'm not suggesting Jon would be evil,but he may have the foresight and the ability needed to do the impossible,that is use a tool once used for evil now for good.

[Black Crow]

Try the Heresy thread...

[wolfmaid7]

Part of me kinda likes the idea of Jon stealing wights from the Others by warging them. It would also be consistent with his character's development of having to do 'bad' things for a good cause.

I still believe that he'll be back as Jon though, perhaps the wildlings will smuggle his body North of the Wall in order to be revived/wighted in order for him to warg into it. Maybe with a few side effects(blue eyes and what not).

The Bran vision was interesting. I don't buy into this, but he effectively witnesses John die/turn into a wight and then the crow says this is why you must live, because winter is coming. It could be viewed that winter/evil is Jon and he Bran will have to help stop him. Again, I don't believe this but maybe it shouldn't be overlooked.

I also agree that "maybe" apart from a few physical differences that Jon will be essentially Jon.I look at the symbolism in his dream of the Wights not being able to harm him more or less,Jon's dream to me was prophetic that maybe he will possess something in his nature or possession that may help him fight the others.

When it comes to Winter/Jon equating evil, Winter is no more evil than fire is.It is a force of nature and nature is not evil.The reanimation of the dead can be considered evil hence the reason i believe Leaf told Bran to not call his father back. The wights are a disturbance in the concept of life,death and rebirth they are a manifestation used as a tool to enact carnage.Jon's possible control over them in order to defeat the others will not be evil ,but him using a tool that has been thrown into the melee.Jon's ability to repel them or possibly Warg some of them will be the outcome of a variable that should never have been-the wights-So i think Bran maybe a help to Jon if it goes down this way as Jon has had trouble embracing his power.

[wolfmaid7]

Try the Heresy thread...

EDIT:Found my way there

[mediterraneo]

I second Blackcrow, the Heresy thread is the place to go for this.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Happy holidays world of ASOFAI:

I have a crackpot theory and i'm not sure if someone came up with this already.The duality of good and evil is a reoccurring theme¹ to in this series in that the lines are seriously blurred.

IMy crackpot concerns the situation Jon is in currently;we all more or less seem to think that Jon will be resurrected².The how and it what condition is kind of illusive. So is it possible Jon could be resurrected as some type of Wight but with his consciousness in tack due to his warging abilities.Also, could have the ability to some how relieve the others of their hold on the wights.What are the implications of this on the story.

While I disagree with almost everthing you said I have major problems with these 2 things.

1. If any thing, its the opposite of Good vs Evil as a theme in aSoIaF. GRRM has made a point to say that this isn't that kind of story. Its a much Grey'er world.

2. I would disagree with the fact that Jon is dead, and thereforth could not be resurrectted. In GRRM own words " so you think he is dead, do you?" Jon has been stabbed, and is went into shock, but we have not seen him die. IIRC the is something from way back, where GRRM said that he would never let a character die as a POV. I think its a rule or something.

[wolfmaid7]

While I disagree with almost everthing you said I have major problems with these 2 things.

1. If any thing, its the opposite of Good vs Evil as a theme in aSoIaF. GRRM has made a point to say that this isn't that kind of story. Its a much Grey'er world.

2. I would disagree with the fact that Jon is dead, and thereforth could not be resurrectted. In GRRM own words " so you think he is dead, do you?" Jon has been stabbed, and is went into shock, but we have not seen him die. IIRC the is something from way back, where GRRM said that he would never let a character die as a POV. I think its a rule or something.

Forgive me if i don't state your name damn its long lol. I will respond firstly by saying i agree with you that in this world nothing is black and white.The characters themselves are a testament to that fact look at Mel and Stannis for example what they do is totally reprehensible to me,but is it fair to say they are evil.Is Arya evil? The ambiguity of these concepts intrigues me especially when it comes to the Wights; beings that i do not consider evil.

Your second point i do not believe Jon is "DEAD" i believe he will be in a comatose state, i believe that state is necessary.

[Harlan]

Try the Heresy thread...

Black crow, you're great and all, but directing a person to get information by reading through 5000-10000 posts is really just not all that helpful.

As to the original topic, When GRMM kills off a character he generally does so in an obvious way (for reference, see Ned's death, Rob's death, Tywin's death,etc) the only ambiguous death I can think of is Syrio Forrel. every other time we don't actually watch a character die, that character has a way of not dying ( see arya getting hit with an axe, Rickon and bran being Flayed/hanged,can't remember which, The hound being taken in by the priests, The mountain being brought back through necromancy, Lady stark being ressrcted by fire) the point is that I don't think Jon is dead. I think he's been injured and that he will watch the Night's watch fail through ghost's eyes while he recovers.

I could be wrong though, I've been wrong before though.

[Black Crow]

Absolutely, unless the body is actually observed lying in one corner with the head sitting somewhere else entirely, then its always unwise to assume anybody's dead, and even then, as somebody remarked dead isn't what it was.

As to the Heresy Channel, we are very helpful and while I don't recommend reading through more than a year of posts, anybody coming over to the dark side with sensible questions only has to ask, and the gang are very good at explaining what we argue about.

[jon stark I]

Going under the assumption that Mel can do resurrections like Thoras based on the ideology that all or certain red priests can do it was one of my first thoughts.However

this line from ADWD "Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him." BR. Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.Leaves me to believe that Bran and BR will intervene and that Jon will be in a cell for a while-on ice.

In addition,following the resurrection patterns we've seen, there has been resurrections by The Lord of Light,The Drowned God ,but none from the old gods.

It is clear to me that Jon was chosen by the old gods,and i doubt-pure speculation here- that BR and Bran would allow Mel to burn Jon in any Lord of Light ceremony. I'm hoping they high jack it big time.

I never looked it that way but both red priests and others use unnatural magic to resurrect their targets but as we know Old gods able to use nature magic so I think Old gods resurrection spells won't harm Jon in any way we saw how people behave after resurrection by Red priests they lose their memories and their sense of being.Others resurrection is probably more destructive.I think Jon won't be a wight because GRRM said he didn't die.("ohhh you tought he was dead right)

[Runaway Penguin]

If he is not dead, no resurrection is needed. "Memory of warmth fleeing" is just getting into shock and coma for loss of blood.

Frankly, we had too many unnatural revivals already, always there was a Hell to pay. Old Gods would hardly be more forgiving in this aspect. I vote for normal healing process and the only supernatural thing needed would be making Jon dewarg from Ghost.

[wolfmaid7]

If he is not dead, no resurrection is needed. "Memory of warmth fleeing" is just getting into shock and coma for loss of blood.

Frankly, we had too many unnatural revivals already, always there was a Hell to pay. Old Gods would hardly be more forgiving in this aspect. I vote for normal healing process and the only supernatural thing needed would be making Jon dewarg from Ghost.

I agree with you that he isn't dead, i do believe Jon is in a Coma, but from the point of view of those at the wall they may think him dead cus they have no idea what a coma is . Also,all it takes is for Mel to have some cockameme idea or get a whiff that Jon's blood is special for her to want to flambe is arse to help Stannis. I agree that the old god's won't stand for Mel's ritual; i don't think the wildlings or those who know Jon's devotion for the old god's will stand for it either.

From where i sit ,Jon will need some help (1) his situation is grave physically( thankfully the cold preserves) (2) there is a pyromaniac who has a knack for burning certain people.