Think Cersei would do it all again?

[jons nissa]

Actually the abuse had already started:

Plus, seeing as the text implies that she did not start cheating on Robert till he started cheating on her:

If she had already been sleeping with Jaime, her choice of words is strange-not I want to keep harming him, I want him horned.

i didn't say she was sleeping with jaime before that incident. in fact, grrm is clearly telling us that is when they become lovers again following the wedding day morning tryst. however, greenstone happened early in the marriage (honeymoon, i think?) cersei is said to spend the day watching and waiting for her royal husband. there's no indication that she is unhappy with her marriage at this point until she suspects he cheating on her. she confirms it and acts.

honestly i don't understand why this is not enough of a reason. cersei was being a good wife and robert chose to sleep with another woman. saying she was in the worst of possible situations at this point, does indeed remove her agency as JonisnoGarySnow says and turns her into a smaller character grasping at anything she can.

in any case, robert did not treat cersei well, not by any measure. cersei responded to this however, she had a personal agenda that started as far back as when she was a child. she made many decisions because of both of these driving forces. would she do it again? yes. if you removed one and left the other would she do it again? yes. knowing how things turn out up until book 5 would she do it again? yes, only more ruthlessly with the hopes of getting away with more. it's who she is.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

That is not what he said though, he was protesting against another user stating that she was a terrible person before Robert as well as after, thus negating any effects his abuse may have had on her.

It is similar to Viserys perhaps being unbalanced from the beginning but a lifetime of poverty and humiliation definitely resulted in his turning out much worse than he would have in the normal scheme of things.

Well she did hurt baby Tyrion, possibly killed her friend Melara when she was what, like ten? And her and Jaime started messing around very young, well before Robert (though I don't believe that having sex with your brother is "terrible person" territory, though it's a bit messed up). I don't see that Cersei's descent into the crazy woman I love would have been particularly different, Robert or no.

And I still think it's offensive to say things like "well, shouldn't we ask if Robert would do it all over again?". No matter how terrible Robert was, I don't like the insinuation that women are too stupid to realize which actions might help and which ones might harm them, even when they make mistakes. Cersei, even trapped in a loveless, abusive marriage, could have chosen not to have Jaime's children for her own sake. She could have, she made the choice not to. I can see why she did, but it doesn't mean that it's Robert's fault.

[jons nissa]

That is not what he said though, he was protesting against another user stating that she was a terrible person before Robert as well as after, thus negating any effects his abuse may have had on her.

It is similar to Viserys perhaps being unbalanced from the beginning but a lifetime of poverty and humiliation definitely resulted in his turning out much worse than he would have in the normal scheme of things.

ah. i see. cersei is who she is because of the effect of robert's abuse. thanks for explaining your pov.

[Winter's Knight]

i didn't say she was sleeping with jaime before that incident. in fact, grrm is clearly telling us that is when they become lovers again following the wedding day morning tryst. however, greenstone happened early in the marriage (honeymoon, i think?) cersei is said to spend the day watching and waiting for her royal husband. there's no indication that she is unhappy with her marriage at this point until she suspects he cheating on her. she confirms it and acts.

honestly i don't understand why this is not enough of a reason. cersei was being a good wife and robert chose to sleep with another woman. saying she was in the worst of possible situations at this point, does indeed remove her agency as JonisnoGarySnow says and turns her into a smaller character grasping at anything she can.

in any case, robert did treat cersei well, not by any measure. cersei responded to this however, she had a personal agenda that started as far back as when she was a child. she made many decisions because of both of these driving forces. would she do it again? yes. if you removed one and left the other would she do it again? yes. knowing how things turn out up until book 5 would she do it again? yes, only more ruthlessly with the hopes of getting away with more. it's who she is.

You misunderstand me-the Estemonts stayed in KL for six months. Cersei mentions accosting Robert with his abuse in their first year of marriage.

The Rebellion ended in 283, while Joff was born in 286 thus suggesting that there was at leas a year's gap between their wedding and Joff's conception. Ergo, it was Robert's adultery at Greenshield that caused her to start sleeping with Jaime again.

[Kolantero]

That is not what he said though, he was protesting against another user stating that she was a terrible person before Robert as well as after, thus negating any effects his abuse may have had on her.

Cersei was a horrible person before her marriage, that's a fact and it doesn't imply any "negation", at least how i read it. And if there is no negation for whatever effect Robert had on Cersei then the same must be said for the other way around and Robert's actions and character must be justified by whatever effect Cersei had on him regardless of his pre-marriage character. You can't have it only one way.

It is similar to Viserys perhaps being unbalanced from the beginning but a lifetime of poverty and humiliation definitely resulted in his turning out much worse than he would have in the normal scheme of things.

Except that Cersei, unlike Viserys, was a horrible person BEFORE she had the slightest abuse from Robert.

Also in that case Robert can be excused since he watched his parents' ship sink when he was a kid which let to their death and later the love of his life was kidnapped (he believed) and killed (regardless of whether he was in love with actual Lyanna or ideal Lyanna). Because you can't have it only one way.

[The Frosted King]

Cersei was a horrible person before her marriage, that's a fact and it doesn't imply any "negation", at least how i read it. And if there is no negation for whatever effect Robert had on Cersei then the same must be said for the other way around and Robert's actions and character must be justified by whatever effect Cersei had on him regardless of his pre-marriage character. You can't have it only one way.

Except that Cersei, unlike Viserys, was a horrible person BEFORE she had the slightest abuse from Robert.

Also in that case Robert can be excused since he watched his parents' ship sink when he was a kid which let to their death and later the love of his life was kidnapped (he believed) and killed (regardless of whether he was in love with actual Lyanna or ideal Lyanna). Because you can't have it only one way.

They won't like this post.

Not at all.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

You misunderstand me-the Estemonts stayed in KL for six months. Cersei mentions accosting Robert with his abuse in their first year of marriage.

The Rebellion ended in 283, while Joff was born in 286 thus suggesting that there was at leas a year's gap between their wedding and Joff's conception. Ergo, it was Robert's adultery at Greenshield that caused her to start sleeping with Jaime again.

No, it was a contributing factor, it didn't cause her to do anything. Cersei is her own person and made the choice of dealing with her piece of shit husband's infidelity by sleeping with Jaime and bearing children from him. She chose to deal with Robert this way, because she's Cersei. Catelyn Tully would have dealt with it a different way, Lysa would have done something different, so would Asha Greyjoy or Arianne Martell. I honestly think it takes away from Cersei as a human (well, a fictional character, but we are acting like the characters are human with human motivations), to act like that she had no agency, that she didn't make choices in this situation, and that she isn't her, that her actions are due to her husband.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Wasn't it a fact that Cersei had been fucking Jaime her whole life, despite her infatuation with Rhaegar and then marriage with Robert which turned bad very quickly? I don't think she ever stopped having incest sex.

[jons nissa]

Wasn't it a fact that Cersei had been fucking Jaime her whole life, despite her infatuation with Rhaegar and then marriage with Robert which turned bad very quickly? I don't think she ever stopped having incest sex.

there appears to have been a pause in the relationship from the morning of her wedding day until she confirmed that robert was cheating on her at greenstone.

[Kolantero]

They won't like this post.

Not at all.

In that case they would be wrong since it's not my viewpoint/logic which leads to the conclusions i wrote above.

[UnbentFury]

She was having sex with him, yes, but she did not have his children until Robert raped and abused her. This is in the text. It is a fact.

All this westeros.org victim-blaming bullshit needs to stop.

If this wasn't such a bullshit and flimsy accusation I might deign to get offended.

That is not what he said though, he was protesting against another user stating that she was a terrible person before Robert as well as after, thus negating any effects his abuse may have had on her.

It is similar to Viserys perhaps being unbalanced from the beginning but a lifetime of poverty and humiliation definitely resulted in his turning out much worse than he would have in the normal scheme of things.

Not what I said at all thank you very much. I'm saying that to say all of Cersei's actions cannot be blamed soley on Robert since she was an awful person before. I'm not 'negating' any effect, but it's not victim blaming to say she was who she was before this happened.

Saying that Cersei is responsible for her own choices is not blaming the victim. If someone was saying that she is somehow responsible for Robert's abuse, or that she deserved it, or that she is a terrible person for not "putting up with it" or something like that, that's victim blaming.

But victim or not, how in the freaking hells is Cersei not responsible for things that she chose to do? Jaime didn't make her sleep with him, nor have his children. Cersei chose to do so. Yes, Robert was a piece of shit, but that doesn't mean that Cersei didn't make her choices. Having sympathy for someone's situation doesn't mean that we have to excuse everything she does.

Honestly, I find it offensive as a woman and a victim of violence, to excuse everything Cersei does because of mean old Robert. Thanks for acting like women have no agency or responsibility to make better choices for ourselves.

And this is coming from a huge Cersei fan.

THIS ENTIRE POST.

[UnbentFury]

Cersei was a horrible person before her marriage, that's a fact and it doesn't imply any "negation", at least how i read it. And if there is no negation for whatever effect Robert had on Cersei then the same must be said for the other way around and Robert's actions and character must be justified by whatever effect Cersei had on him regardless of his pre-marriage character. You can't have it only one way.

Except that Cersei, unlike Viserys, was a horrible person BEFORE she had the slightest abuse from Robert.

Also in that case Robert can be excused since he watched his parents' ship sink when he was a kid which let to their death and later the love of his life was kidnapped (he believed) and killed (regardless of whether he was in love with actual Lyanna or ideal Lyanna). Because you can't have it only one way.

And Kolantero destroys the pseudo-feminist double standard once again.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

The thing about Viserys... I have a lot of sympathy for him, but he was responsible for his choices, like the lovely attitude of threatening his thirteen year old sister with rape by an entire khalasar or doing stupid shit like threatening Dany's baby in front of Drogo and drawing steel in Vaes Dothrak. I feel bad for him because I find his story quite tragic, but he made those decisions.

And why didn't Dany do the exact same things as Viserys, if we are blaming character actions on someone else? She had it even rougher than him! Could it be that she was smart enough and had a different enough personality that she made different decisions, that her life circumstances didn't cause her to do anything, no more than Viserys's circumstances did?

[jons nissa]

The thing about Viserys... I have a lot of sympathy for him, but he was responsible for his choices, like the lovely attitude of threatening his thirteen year old sister with rape by an entire khalasar or doing stupid shit like threatening Dany's baby in front of Drogo and drawing steel in Vaes Dothrak. I feel bad for him because I find his story quite tragic, but he made those decisions.

i agree with this. one can argue "he couldn't have made any other decision given what he experienced growing up" but that is in essence the same thing as saying his environment molded him into the man he became. likewise, cersei's experiences mold her. but both viserys and cersei are still able to make conscious choices. they can distinguish right from wrong but chose instead to make decision based on the same driving force: their steadfast belief that they deserve specific things that are being denied them.

[Éadaoin]

I have not read through the majority of posts in this thread, but I just want to say that although Cersei is a victim, she is also a victimizer. How we respond to our struggles says a lot about who we are, imo. Which is what makes these books interesting - we see people respond to suffering in many different ways.

(I hope no one takes that as victim-blaming or anything...)

[UnbentFury]

The thing about Viserys... I have a lot of sympathy for him, but he was responsible for his choices, like the lovely attitude of threatening his thirteen year old sister with rape by an entire khalasar or doing stupid shit like threatening Dany's baby in front of Drogo and drawing steel in Vaes Dothrak. I feel bad for him because I find his story quite tragic, but he made those decisions.

And why didn't Dany do the exact same things as Viserys, if we are blaming character actions on someone else? She had it even rougher than him! Could it be that she was smart enough and had a different enough personality that she made different decisions, that her life circumstances didn't cause her to do anything, no more than Viserys's circumstances did?

But that's because she's a woman and therefore full of innocence and virtue. Any bad thing she's done is only because the big bad mens made her do it. Everyone knows women aren't able to think for themselves and that Robert was to blame for Cersei killing Melara.

[UnbentFury]

I have not read through the majority of posts in this thread, but I just want to say that although Cersei is a victim, she is also a victimizer. How we respond to our struggles says a lot about who we are, imo. Which is what makes these books interesting - we see people respond to suffering in many different ways.

(I hope no one takes that as victim-blaming or anything...)

Thank you. No one is saying Cersei wasn't a victim of abuse. Because she was. But her being a victim does not negate her victimizing other people. Sansa reacts to abuse the way that she does, because that's just who she is. Cersei responds to abuse the way she does because that's the way she is and it is absolutely not victim-blaming to say this.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

I have not read through the majority of posts in this thread, but I just want to say that although Cersei is a victim, she is also a victimizer. How we respond to our struggles says a lot about who we are, imo. Which is what makes these books interesting - we see people respond to suffering in many different ways.

(I hope no one takes that as victim-blaming or anything...)

That's not victim-blaming at all, it's just reality.

I think another reason I dislike the "Cersei's actions are Robert's fault" thing is not only because it removes agency and personality from the Cersei, can we say the same thing when a victim does good things "because" of their abuse? Like, say if Sansa some day sticks up for some poor girl who is getting abused by a noble man, can we give Joff instead of Sansa credit for that? Are the good things that victims of violence do their choices, but the bad things not their choice? It's just ridiculous to me.

[Top12Gun]

That's not victim-blaming at all, it's just reality.

I think another reason I dislike the "Cersei's actions are Robert's fault" thing is not only because it removes agency and personality from the Cersei, can we say the same thing when a victim does good things "because" of their abuse? Like, say if Sansa some day sticks up for some poor girl who is getting abused by a noble man, can we give Joff instead of Sansa credit for that? Are the good things that victims of violence do their choices, but the bad things not their choice? It's just ridiculous to me.

In other words, personal responsibility. I agree.

[UnbentFury]

That's not victim-blaming at all, it's just reality.

I think another reason I dislike the "Cersei's actions are Robert's fault" thing is not only because it removes agency and personality from the Cersei, can we say the same thing when a victim does good things "because" of their abuse? Like, say if Sansa some day sticks up for some poor girl who is getting abused by a noble man, can we give Joff instead of Sansa credit for that? Are the good things that victims of violence do their choices, but the bad things not their choice? It's just ridiculous to me.

I like how you always say what I want to say but with patience and coherence. I don't know how many times I've just wanted to snap.