Think Cersei would do it all again?

[Éadaoin]

I like how you always say what I want to say but with patience and coherence. I don't know how many times I've just wanted to snap.

I appreciate your anger even if I don't always agree. ;) Let it all out, UnbentFury.

[UnbentFury]

I appreciate your anger even if I don't always agree. ;) Let it all out, UnbentFury.

Haha, thanks. And honestly, if you take offense to something I say I absolutely will not mind as long as you do it in a reasonable manner. I'm open for all forms of discussion. I'm a.... generally a peaceable person.

But trust me, you don't want me to unleash the Fury in its entirety. ;)

[PatrickStormborn]

Saying that Cersei is responsible for her own choices is not blaming the victim. If someone was saying that she is somehow responsible for Robert's abuse, or that she deserved it, or that she is a terrible person for not "putting up with it" or something like that, that's victim blaming.

But victim or not, how in the freaking hells is Cersei not responsible for things that she chose to do? Jaime didn't make her sleep with him, nor have his children. Cersei chose to do so. Yes, Robert was a piece of shit, but that doesn't mean that Cersei didn't make her choices. Having sympathy for someone's situation doesn't mean that we have to excuse everything she does.

Honestly, I find it offensive as a woman and a victim of violence, to excuse everything Cersei does because of mean old Robert. Thanks for acting like women have no agency or responsibility to make better choices for ourselves.

And this is coming from a huge Cersei fan.

What I'm not saying: Cersei is absolved of her sins because she was abused.

What I am saying: Cersei is responsible for choosing to have her brother's children. However, she did it in response to Robert cheating on her and abusing her. Therefore if we are questioning if Cersei "would do it all again", we should ask the same of Robert, knowing that his abuse and infidelity led to Cersei having her brother's children.

I'm sorry if I've caused offense because it was honestly not my intention. But to ignore that Cersei had Jaime's children because Robert cheated and abused her, and to pretend that she would have done it regardless of whether he was a flawless husband just fills me with rage. Cersei is not a nice person. She's an abuser herself, and to highlight this point GRRM has made sure to include evidence of her being abusive as a child. But as far as giving birth to her brother's children is concerned, Robert's cruelty and infidelity is partly to blame.

I would never attempt to "excuse everything she does". But I will always defend this particular action. :)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What I'm not saying: Cersei is absolved of her sins because she was abused.

What I am saying: Cersei is responsible for choosing to have her brother's children.

Agreed.

However, she did it in response to Robert cheating on her and abusing her. Therefore if we are questioning if Cersei "would do it all again", we should ask the same of Robert, knowing that his abuse and infidelity led to Cersei having her brother's children.

Cersei my have began sleeping with Jaime again due to Robert's indiscretions, but to say his infidelity led to her having her brother's children is a bit much to me. Cersei could have prevented the pregnancies but was intent on having Jaime's children and placing her bastards on the throne. Either way, I feel Cersei would have eventually started sleeping with Jaime again.

I'm sorry if I've caused offense because it was honestly not my intention. But to ignore that Cersei had Jaime's children because Robert cheated and abused her, and to pretend that she would have done it regardless of whether he was a flawless husband just fills me with rage.

It's a difference between ignoring something and disagreeing with something I respect your opinion that "Cersei had Jaime's children because Robert cheated and abused her", but I firmly disagree.

I also don't think it's illogical to assume that Cersei may have done it regardless.

But as far as giving birth to her brother's children is concerned, Robert's cruelty and infidelity is partly to blame.

He's partly to blame for her turning to Jaime...again, but not for having his children.

[jons nissa]

She had Jaime's children because Robert abused her and cheated on her. It's that simple.

But as far as giving birth to her brother's children is concerned, Robert's cruelty and infidelity is partly to blame.

it's that simple to partly to blame. at least you're moving in the right direction. please continue.....

[Winter's Knight]

it's that simple to partly to blame. at least you're moving in the right direction. please continue.....

?

It is that simple. Another example: Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna caused Brandon to ride to KL to demand that he come out and die. While Brandon holds complete responsibility for his actions, it is to be noted that his sister and Rhaegar precipitated the event by irresponsibly absconding, see?

[straits]

What I'm not saying: Cersei is absolved of her sins because she was abused.

What I am saying: Cersei is responsible for choosing to have her brother's children. However, she did it in response to Robert cheating on her and abusing her. Therefore if we are questioning if Cersei "would do it all again", we should ask the same of Robert, knowing that his abuse and infidelity led to Cersei having her brother's children.

I'm sorry if I've caused offense because it was honestly not my intention. But to ignore that Cersei had Jaime's children because Robert cheated and abused her, and to pretend that she would have done it regardless of whether he was a flawless husband just fills me with rage. Cersei is not a nice person. She's an abuser herself, and to highlight this point GRRM has made sure to include evidence of her being abusive as a child. But as far as giving birth to her brother's children is concerned, Robert's cruelty and infidelity is partly to blame.

I would never attempt to "excuse everything she does". But I will always defend this particular action. :)

But by what logic is Cersei having Jamie's kids a reaction to cruelty? Cersei has proven that she does not (not!) need to be mistreated in order to do something malicious. Not at all.

[Winter's Knight]

But by what logic is Cersei having Jamie's kids a reaction to cruelty? Cersei has proven that she does not (not!) need to be mistreated in order to do something malicious. Not at all.

At the risk of inciting a totally different debate, are you implying that Cersei choosing the father of her children was malicious? Because she did decide to have Jaime's children because she couldn't bear to have Robert's.

[E-Ro]

I just want to say, this thread is so much fun. And while I really dont like cercei, some of you guys really make a good case. Perhaps its time for me to rethink cercei. I will be lurking this thread for a while, as I dont have much to add.(unless stannis gets dragged in witch is wont to happen in all threads)

[straits]

At the risk of inciting a totally different debate, are you implying that Cersei choosing the father of her children was malicious? Because she did decide to have Jaime's children because she couldn't bear to have Robert's.

If it was not a malicious reaction to Robert's abuse (is it a positive reaction?), then her choosing of the father is even less likely to be motivated by anything other than her desire to have Jamie's kids. Thus the chaos ensuing out of incest would have happened anyways and Cersei would have been forced to act further to defend her children. By killing Robert and allowing Ned's death.

[Spotted Cat]

she has no regrets, she hates king bobs guts and she is an idiot.

she will do it again for sure.

[jons nissa]

?

It is that simple. Another example: Rhaegar eloping with Lyanna caused Brandon to ride to KL to demand that he come out and die. While Brandon holds complete responsibility for his actions, it is to be noted that his sister and Rhaegar precipitated the event by irresponsibly absconding, see?

no I do not see and do not agree. at this point it makes sense to say we disagree. i believe cersei had jaime's children because she wanted to horn robert. you believe abuse was the main culprit. i think the abuse came after joff and contributed to her overall hatred of robert but is not the reason for her having jaime's children. i believe her hatred of her position as a woman and "having to do her duty" played a far greater role in her decision.

we see it differently. it is that simple.

[jons nissa]

Perhaps its time for me to rethink cercei.

I was thinking the same thing.

[PatrickStormborn]

But by what logic is Cersei having Jamie's kids a reaction to cruelty? Cersei has proven that she does not (not!) need to be mistreated in order to do something malicious. Not at all.

Robert abused her (sexually and non-sexually) and cheated on her. Because of this she resumed her sexual relationship with Jaime, after which she gave birth to his children to "horn" Robert and rebel against him.

[Winter's Knight]

no I do not see and do not agree. at this point it makes sense to say we disagree. i believe cersei had jaime's children because she wanted to horn robert. you believe abuse was the main culprit. i think the abuse came after joff and contributed to her overall hatred of robert but is not the reason for her having jaime's children. i believe her hatred of her position as a woman and "having to do her duty" played a far greater role in her decision.

we see it differently. it is that simple.

Forgive me, but the timelines point out that the abuse came before she started sleeping with Jaime at Greenshield:

The wiki tells me that Robert's Rebellion ended in 283.

The latest that Cersei wed Robert would be in 284.

She mentions that she confronted Robert about him hurting her "during the first year of their marriage"-so 284-5.

She further mentions that the Estemonts stayed with them for six months from their wedding onwards.

She further mentions that they returned the visit and that is when she believes Joff was conceived.

Seeing as Joff was born in 286, the earliest he could have been conceived was 285.

I think we can reasonably assume that the incident during which she confronted Robert took place between the Estemonts' visit and their trip to Greenshield seeing as it took place during a private breakfast-not something they'd have had the opportunity to indulge in if they had guests or were guests themselves.

If it was not a malicious reaction to Robert's abuse (is it a positive reaction?), then her choosing of the father is even less likely to be motivated by anything other than her desire to have Jamie's kids. Thus the chaos ensuing out of incest would have happened anyways and Cersei would have been forced to act further to defend her children. By killing Robert and allowing Ned's death.

I do not think so-remember that Tyrion always wanted to kill his father and often fantasied about it but it took several pushes in quick succession for him to actually do it. One may have the capability and even inclination for performing daring/heinous acts but never actually commit them unless the right triggers are in place.

I was thinking the same thing.

Shall I claim moral victory then? :P

[straits]

I do not think so-remember that Tyrion always wanted to kill his father and often fantasied about it but it took several pushes in quick succession for him to actually do it. One may have the capability and even inclination for performing daring/heinous acts but never actually commit them unless the right triggers are in place.

But it is only when these triggers are in place that a person's true nature comes out. It's easy to do the 'right thing' when there are no conditions straining your will. At the risk of sounding cheesy:

Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose.

Which leads me to conclude that the guilt lies with both parties.

The only way Robert as he is (an ass to the spouse) would have rightful children is if he was with anyone other than Cersei, given her nature. And the only way Cersei as she is would choose not to go as far as to have an affair and her lover's kids is if she is with anyone other than Robert. They're both nasty pieces of work in any relationship. And they happen to be together. Robert was never good in a relationship, and Cersei is not good for Jamie.

[Winter's Knight]

But it is only when these triggers are in place that a person's true nature comes out. It's easy to do the 'right thing' when there are no conditions straining your will. At the risk of sounding cheesy:

Which leads me to conclude that the guilt lies with both parties.

The only way Robert as he is (an ass to the spouse) would have rightful children is if he was with anyone other than Cersei, given her nature. And the only way Cersei as she is would choose not to go as far as to have an affair and her lover's kids is if she is with anyone other than Robert. They're both nasty pieces of work in any relationship. And they happen to be together. Robert was never good in a relationship, and Cersei is not good for Jamie.

I am content to concede this.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

At the risk of inciting a totally different debate, are you implying that Cersei choosing the father of her children was malicious? Because she did decide to have Jaime's children because she couldn't bear to have Robert's.

Personally, I don't think her decision was malicious, I feel that Cersei felt unloved and went back to the only man that ever showed her true devotion. I also don't believe she had the children to hurt Robert, since he was never suppose to know that they weren't his children. A queen is expected to have children and she didn't want to have Robert's, so she had Jaime's.

Still,

I feel that if Robert had been a normal husband Cersei still would have cheated with Jaime, eventually. She would have grown bored with Robert and lost respect for him as a man. It's just the way Cersei is made. The same way she lost respect for Jaime when he had began his redemption arc.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

What I'm not saying: Cersei is absolved of her sins because she was abused.

What I am saying: Cersei is responsible for choosing to have her brother's children. However, she did it in response to Robert cheating on her and abusing her. Therefore if we are questioning if Cersei "would do it all again", we should ask the same of Robert, knowing that his abuse and infidelity led to Cersei having her brother's children.

I'm sorry if I've caused offense because it was honestly not my intention. But to ignore that Cersei had Jaime's children because Robert cheated and abused her, and to pretend that she would have done it regardless of whether he was a flawless husband just fills me with rage. Cersei is not a nice person. She's an abuser herself, and to highlight this point GRRM has made sure to include evidence of her being abusive as a child. But as far as giving birth to her brother's children is concerned, Robert's cruelty and infidelity is partly to blame.

I would never attempt to "excuse everything she does". But I will always defend this particular action. :)

Okay I understand you position a bit better. And I don't deny that Robert's actions were something that Cersei considered when she made the decision to have Jaime's children. I just get really frustrated when people act like there was nothing else that she could have done. She had other decisions, and she made the decisions that she did because she is Cersei, not because she was in an abusive relationship. If Catelyn Tully had been forcibly married to Robert like Cersei had, and he had treated her the same way, I don't think she would have slept with Edmure (or anyone else) and had his children because she is Cat, she has her own personality and motivations and that is why she makes the decisions she does. Like Cersei once said, she would have smothered Jon in his cradle (and did apparently have some of Robert's bastards at Casterly Rock killed), but Catelyn left Jon alone and let him grow up with her children as a loved brother. They may be women in a terrible society that doesn't give them many options, but they are still people that can choose how they react to their circumstances.

I think it bothers me because I was in a pretty terribly abusive relationship when I was young, and I have always resented the insinuation that I made stupid decisions because of that relationship. I am my own person, and I made my own decisions (good or bad) even in a shitty situation! I just feel like it removes agency and personality from people to say that they did things because of someone else. It may have been a factor, and I would never deny that Cersei is a victim (as well as being a victimizer in other ways), but she still made choices.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

Personally, I don't think her decision was malicious, I feel that Cersei felt unloved and went back to the only man that ever showed her true devotion. I also don't believe she had the children to hurt Robert, since he was never suppose to know that they weren't his children. A queen is expected to have children and she didn't want to have Robert's, so she had Jaime's.

Still,

I feel that if Robert had been a normal husband Cersei still would have cheated with Jaime, eventually. She would have grown bored with Robert and lost respect for him as a man. It's just the way Cersei is made. The same way she lost respect for Jaime when he had began his redemption arc.

For your last sentence, I agree to an extent. I think Cersei, with her personality and bitterness at a society that held her back because of her gender, wouldn't have loved or kept respect for most husbands. Though, if she had a husband who basically let her run things, that might have been a little different.

I do believe that she did truly love Jaime when she was younger though, and she wanted their children on the throne, not any other man's.