Think Cersei would do it all again?

[Winter's Knight]

JonSnowisnoGarySnow I think I am not being clear. Let me try with an example from my own life. In middle school, I had a horrible time.Without going into specifics, it caused me to make quite a few idiotic decisions that I am not proud of and in different circumstances, I would not have made them. While the trauma that pushed me to said decisions doesn't absolve me of my actions, it does explain and to some degree, mitigates them.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

For your last sentence, I agree to an extent. I think Cersei, with her personality and bitterness at a society that held her back because of her gender, wouldn't have loved or kept respect for most husbands. Though, if she had a husband who basically let her run things, that might have been a little different.

I agree, I just think she would still cheat on him.

I do believe that she did truly love Jaime when she was younger though, and she wanted their children on the throne, not any other man's.

I believe she still loves Jaime...in her own way.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

JonSnowisnoGarySnow I think I am not being clear. Let me try with an example from my own life. In middle school, I had a horrible time.Without going into specifics, it caused me to make quite a few idiotic decisions that I am not proud of and in different circumstances, I would not have made them. While the trauma that pushed me to said decisions doesn't absolve me of my actions, it does explain and to some degree, mitigates them.

I think you guys agree with one another. :)

[Dr. Pepper]

All this westeros.org victim-blaming bullshit needs to stop.

All of this westeros.org whitewashing and victim-making needs to stop. When you whitewash and victim-make one character, you might as well do it for all of the characters. After all, they are all potentially victims of their upbringing.

Cersei was a vengeful, violent person, and self-obsessed person before she ever met Robert. Acknowledging that does not negate the fact that she was a victim of domestic abuse and rape. She doesn't regret any of her actions because she's narcissistic and doesn't believe she did anything wrong. She can't be made to do wrong just because someone wronged her. She's her own person capable of making her own choices. Blaming all of her choices on others and her circumstances detracts from the idea of personal (and female!) agency.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

JonSnowisnoGarySnow I think I am not being clear. Let me try with an example from my own life. In middle school, I had a horrible time.Without going into specifics, it caused me to make quite a few idiotic decisions that I am not proud of and in different circumstances, I would not have made them. While the trauma that pushed me to said decisions doesn't absolve me of my actions, it does explain and to some degree, mitigates them.

I think you guys agree with one another. :)

Lol, I don't think we are disagreeing as much as we appear. I just don't understand why it's only female characters who get this treatment. Theon was taken from his family (where he was abused by his brothers, no less), and put into a family where he was treated well but he knew his life was dependent on someone else's behavior. Then he goes home with what he thought was a plan to make his father a king and proud of him, but all he got was a slap in the face and realized that his father basically dgaf about him. Obviously, him taking over Winterfell was his father's fault? No. He had different options, and no one is to blame but him.

This way of mitigating female behavior and explaining it away, but having different standards for men just drives me crazy.

[Kittykatknits]

Lol, I don't think we are disagreeing as much as we appear. I just don't understand why it's only female characters who get this treatment. Theon was taken from his family (where he was abused by his brothers, no less), and put into a family where he was treated well but he knew

<snip>

This way of mitigating female behavior and explaining it away, but having different standards for men just drives me crazy.

It's not. Check out a Tyrion thread. You'll see lots of arguments to explain away or justify his actions to the point that he's stripped of his agency too. Same with arguments on Jaime's actions being explained away by Cersei. Or that Ned was manipulated and forced by Cat.

[brashcandy]

It's not. Check out a Tyrion thread. You'll see lots of arguments to explain away or justify his actions to the point that he's stripped of his agency too. Same with arguments on Jaime's actions being explained away by Cersei. Or that Ned was manipulated and forced by Cat.

Oh yes. Some of the arguments:

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for participating in Tysha's rape - blame his father

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for marrying Sansa - blame his father

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for Shae's murder - she betrayed him

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for raping a sex slave - sexual slavery is legal in Essos

[UnbentFury]

Oh yes. Some of the arguments:

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for participating in Tysha's rape - blame his father

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for marrying Sansa - blame his father

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for Shae's murder - she betrayed him

- Tyrion can't be held responsible for raping a sex slave - sexual slavery is legal in Essos

I think people should consider mitigating circumstances, while not whitewashing people.

[Kittykatknits]

I think people should consider mitigating circumstances, while not whitewashing people.

I think that's the point here. Attempting to understand Cersei and and explain why she makes decisions is not the same as saying those decisions are OK. The claim that Tyrion is not in any way responsible for his acts is a version of white washing too, the argument that only female characters are subject to this treatment isn't a very strong one.

All the characters (well, except maybe Gregor) have their fans who are likely to see their actions in a more sympathetic light, which is not, by default, whitewashing.

[brashcandy]

I think people should consider mitigating circumstances, while not whitewashing people.

I wholeheartedly agree and that should work for both males and females. Of course, it's natural that as readers we'll have our own sympathies/preferences/prejudices, but I think overall the reason why you see an attempt to offer more nuanced and yes, actively sympathetic readings of some female characters is because of the overwhelmingly negative response their actions receive in the fandom vs those of their male counterparts. We can talk till we're blue in the face about respecting the agency of characters, but until this unequal response is acknowledged, we're not going to get very far.

[UnbentFury]

I think that's the point here. Attempting to understand Cersei and and explain why she makes decisions is not the same as saying those decisions are OK. The claim that Tyrion is not in any way responsible for his acts is a version of white washing too, the argument that only female characters are subject to this treatment isn't a very strong one.

All the characters (well, except maybe Gregor) have their fans who are likely to see their actions in a more sympathetic light, which is not, by default, whitewashing.

And this is totally fine and what I was saying. The thing is, from what I've seen, is an overwhelming (or at least the what vocal minority makes it seem like) is people attempting to handwave all of Cersei's actions into Robert's hands and this simply is not the case. If you are going to whitewash one person because of a tragic past, you need to do it for every other character. And people attempting to handwave all of Cersei's crimes into the hands of the men in her life seems, at least to me, the most common instance of whitewashing. And it's quite frankly, degrading, because it implies women can't think for themselves.

I wholeheartedly agree and that should work for both males and females. Of course, it's natural that as readers we'll have our own sympathies/preferences/prejudices, but I think overall the reason why you see an attempt to offer more nuanced and yes, actively sympathetic readings of some female characters is because of the overwhelmingly negative response their actions receive in the fandom vs those of their male counterparts. We can talk till we're blue in the face about respecting the agency of characters, but until this unequal response is acknowledged, we're not going to get very far.

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with this.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

I think that's the point here. Attempting to understand Cersei and and explain why she makes decisions is not the same as saying those decisions are OK. The claim that Tyrion is not in any way responsible for his acts is a version of white washing too, the argument that only female characters are subject to this treatment isn't a very strong one.

All the characters (well, except maybe Gregor) have their fans who are likely to see their actions in a more sympathetic light, which is not, by default, whitewashing.

I know that male characters have their stans too, I phrased my issue poorly, I think. Double standards bug me. For instance, I can't stand it when a Tyrion fan goes on about how Cersei is a terrible person, when I believe that Tyrion has done some pretty fucked up things and is about equal to his sister. I don't like it either when Cersei fans blame her actions during her marriage on Robert, while lambasting Tyrion for his disgusting attitude toward women and rapey things he has done. If we are going to judge the actions of characters, I don't see how we can have different standards.

I wholeheartedly agree and that should work for both males and females. Of course, it's natural that as readers we'll have our own sympathies/preferences/prejudices, but I think overall the reason why you see an attempt to offer more nuanced and yes, actively sympathetic readings of some female characters is because of the overwhelmingly negative response their actions receive in the fandom vs those of their male counterparts. We can talk till we're blue in the face about respecting the agency of characters, but until this unequal response is acknowledged, we're not going to get very far.

I don't agree that male characters get less shit than females, with the exception of poor Cat (and I think that's mostly because unfortunately because the first interactions we see of her are her being rude about and to Jon, someone who GRRM set up as a likeable protagonist).

And I am sympathetic to Cersei. I just don't like her character being reduced to a reaction to a man. It takes away from her. "Would Cersei do it all over again" is about Cersei, not some abusive asshole, we should be looking at her, and her personality, and if she could go back in time what actions might she change (kill Robert earlier and make sure Ned keeps his head, would be my opinion).

[butterbumps!]

I think that's the point here. Attempting to understand Cersei and and explain why she makes decisions is not the same as saying those decisions are OK. The claim that Tyrion is not in any way responsible for his acts is a version of white washing too, the argument that only female characters are subject to this treatment isn't a very strong one.

All the characters (well, except maybe Gregor) have their fans who are likely to see their actions in a more sympathetic light, which is not, by default, whitewashing.

The thing is, though, that there are a lot of posts in this thread that were intended to mitigate Cersei's actions by claiming that Robert's actions were the cause. This was further complicated by the fact that statements like "victim blaming on westeros.org needs to stop," which was not only patently untrue in terms of what victim-blaming actually means, but also charged the discussion with an implicit judgment against posters who were not sympathizing with Cersei. I would argue that that is what needs to stop-- the thinly veiled attacks on posters, as well as any sort of "double standards" either way these standards cut.

I admire Cersei's choice to take control over her body and approve of the incest generally for some odd reason. But Cersei is Cersei, and there is honestly no reason we should assume that without the factor of Robert, Cersei would have done anything differently. I support the choice she makes as a woman, while I enjoy how deliciously villainous she is about everything else. I feel that to chalk this up to "mitigated decision-making" due to Robert's actions takes away from the (as I see it) positive choice of choosing her children's father, while muddying the issue of her own delicious malfeasance, for which I don't believe she has ever needed any prodding towards.

The other reason I took issue with a lot of what was being said in this thread is specifically because of the issue of Tyrion, as well as a few other characters. I have very strong feelings about Tyrion's culpability in the rapes and murder he performs throughout the series despite the sympathetic portrayal of these actions as it pertains to Tyrion's character. That sympathy for Cersei was being made into an issue of victimization and a kind of gender platform in this thread is unfair and unproductive, and something tells me this is largely the issue so many of us had responded to (though I dropped out after a while out of sheer frustration).

When a discussion like this is extended into a commentary about gender the way it was (with heavy implication that those who blame Cersei for her actions are misogynist, or at least, victim-blamers), it not only becomes a shit show where half of us feel extremely offended, but really sets up a hugely problematic imperative for analysis of other characters as well. It's not some universal truth that we must all have sympathy for Cersei, but a personal response to the character. I should not be made to feel like an ablist-hater because I hold Tyrion fully responsible of walking over to Tysha and raping her, and I don't believe that Ramsay's shitty childhood and early abuse comes close to "mitigating" any of his more recent enormities. Problematically, the strongest proponents for sympathizing for Cersei are also very vocal about holding Tyrion and other characters responsible for their unseemly actions, and this becomes very frustrating when we're part of a community like this, have argued with each other on sundry topics, and know that this is an inconsistent standard being placed, and further, that it's being used here as a kind of universal sympathy law for Cersei (at least as how it was coming off to me).

I think that it's the framework of these discussions and the tone that's used that makes these things get so out of control. Some of the posts in here sound very much like attacks, and such a tone makes the opposing side feel like they must go through ridiculous contortions just to somehow prove they aren't victim-blaming woman-haters in order to earn the right to simply not sympathize with Cersei. I sympathize with Cersei for heaven's sake and even had a huge problem with the overall framework of the discussion once it became more than just about Cersei but into quasi-accusatory territory.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

Bumps why are you so much smarter than me? Lol, I have wanted to steal your posts and claim them as mine twice today so far.

[Kittykatknits]

And this is totally fine and what I was saying.

Yes, I had meant to confirm your statement and expand on some of my thoughts. Sorry if that wasn't more clear.

The thing is, from what I've seen, is an overwhelming (or at least the what vocal minority makes it seem like) is people attempting to handwave all of Cersei's actions into Robert's hands and this simply is not the case. If you are going to whitewash one person because of a tragic past, you need to do it for every other character. And people attempting to handwave all of Cersei's crimes into the hands of the men in her life seems, at least to me, the most common instance of whitewashing. And it's quite frankly, degrading, because it implies women can't think for themselves.

I didn't read all 13 pages of this thread, just the first few and last few. In part because it's about Cersei and she tends to be a rather inflammatory character on these boards and in part because I don't usually enjoy "what if" threads. And, I'll be all wishy-washy here and probably avoid answer the OP too.

Seems like there are a few things going on here. First, as Lyanna Stark said, you can't change a man's (woman's) nature. Yet, at the same time, we are also the sum of our experiences, or at least I've always thought so. So, if we look at Cersei before her life with Robert, we can pick up quite a bit on her true nature it seems. Her mother died and I do believe this had a lasting and negative effect on Cersei, she seems to have grown up without a positive female role model after the death of Joanna. She spent quite a bit of time in KL with her father, a man I don't think will be handed any father of the year awards anytime soon. She's a Lannister and has assumed many of the Lannister values, many of which I don't think are all that healthy. Here, I'm thinking of Lannnister pride and the idea that Lannisters are above others by virtue of being a Lannister. Through flashback, I get the sense that her relationship with Jaime was not a healthy one even before they began sexually experimenting. We get hints that she's always disliked Tyrion, blames him for the death of their mother, and displayed a lack of empathy for him from a young age too. We know that she traded clothes with her brother, getting her a unique perspective on the differences in their treatment and education. Even though it isn't spelled out in the books, it's made pretty evident that she either killed or is responsible for the death of her childhood friend.

So, all before she met Robert, Cersei seems to suffer from a lack of positive family relationships, lacks empathy, may already display some early misogny, and has some unhealthy views of the world. My interpretation of her thoughts is that she did have some idealistic hopes at the beginning of her marriage with Robert but those were quickly dashed. I didn't see any arguments (at least the posts I looked at) on whether Robert beat and raped her which further had an influence on her. This, combined with his cheating, seem to be the primary factors that led her to resume her relationship with her brother and bear his children.

My takeaway from all this is that Robert is not wholly responsible for creating Cersei in any way. Rather, from her talks with Sansa and comments on being ridden like a horse and the messiness that is her life, it seems like her experiences with Robert intensified who Cersei was. In Storm, her father treats her like a walking womb, a baby-making machine so it's pretty clear that it is not just Robert that created the Cersei we see in the series. It's partly who she is from birth and partly who she is from her experiences in life. Just as it is with every single other character in the series. She's an adult who made her own choices in life but I think we can recognize this while, at the same time, recognizing that her relationship with Robert was a significant and negative influence on her.

Now, to go back to the original OP. It seems like the answer to this question would be dependent upon a few things. Is Cersei the same person at the end of the Dance as she is at the beginning? And would all other events play out the exact same way?

To be perfectly frank, I can go back and forth and convince myself of either argument on whether she has changed or not. I really don't know. I guess that's why I hate what if questions.

And UnbentFury, my post was not meant to be an argument against your post. Rather, it got me thinking and turned in to a long-winded stream of thoughts.

[Kittykatknits]

The thing is, though, that there are a lot of posts in this thread that were intended to mitigate Cersei's actions by claiming that Robert's actions were the cause. This was further complicated by the fact that statements like "victim blaming on westeros.org needs to stop," which was not only patently untrue in terms of what victim-blaming actually means, but also charged the discussion with an implicit judgment against posters who were not sympathizing with Cersei. I would argue that that is what needs to stop-- the thinly veiled attacks on posters, as well as any sort of "double standards" either way these standards cut.

I admire Cersei's choice to take control over her body and approve of the incest generally for some odd reason. But Cersei is Cersei, and there is honestly no reason we should assume that without the factor of Robert, Cersei would have done anything differently. I support the choice she makes as a woman, while I enjoy how deliciously villainous she is about everything else. I feel that to chalk this up to "mitigated decision-making" due to Robert's actions takes away from the (as I see it) positive choice of choosing her children's father, while muddying the issue of her own delicious malfeasance, for which I don't believe she has ever needed any prodding towards.

The other reason I took issue with a lot of what was being said in this thread is specifically because of the issue of Tyrion, as well as a few other characters. I have very strong feelings about Tyrion's culpability in the rapes and murder he performs throughout the series despite the sympathetic portrayal of these actions as it pertains to Tyrion's character. That sympathy for Cersei was being made into an issue of victimization and a kind of gender platform in this thread is unfair and unproductive, and something tells me this is largely the issue so many of us had responded to (though I dropped out after a while out of sheer frustration).

When a discussion like this is extended into a commentary about gender the way it was (with heavy implication that those who blame Cersei for her actions are misogynist, or at least, victim-blamers), it not only becomes a shit show where half of us feel extremely offended, but really sets up a hugely problematic imperative for analysis of other characters as well. It's not some universal truth that we must all have sympathy for Cersei, but a personal response to the character. I should not be made to feel like an ablist-hater because I hold Tyrion fully responsible of walking over to Tysha and raping her, and I don't believe that Ramsay's shitty childhood and early abuse comes close to "mitigating" any of his more recent enormities. Problematically, the strongest proponents for sympathizing for Cersei are also very vocal about holding Tyrion and other characters responsible for their unseemly actions, and this becomes very frustrating when we're part of a community like this, have argued with each other on sundry topics, and know that this is an inconsistent standard being placed, and further, that it's being used here as a kind of universal sympathy law for Cersei (at least as how it was coming off to me).

I think that it's the framework of these discussions and the tone that's used that makes these things get so out of control. Some of the posts in here sound very much like attacks, and such a tone makes the opposing side feel like they must go through ridiculous contortions just to somehow prove they aren't victim-blaming woman-haters in order to earn the right to simply not sympathize with Cersei. I sympathize with Cersei for heaven's sake and even had a huge problem with the overall framework of the discussion once it became more than just about Cersei but into quasi-accusatory territory.

We crossed paths in our write-up and I posted the following before I saw your post:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78543-think-cersei-would-do-it-all-again/page__st__240#entry3946276

I hear what you are saying and do think there is a middle ground here. I will respond to you in more detail at some point tomorrow. For now, it is way past my bedtime and I'm beyond tired. Hopefully, the post linked above gives some insight, however rambling it may be, on where my thoughts are at.

[butterbumps!]

We crossed paths in our write-up and I posted the following before I saw your post:

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3946276

I hear what you are saying and do think there is a middle ground here. I will respond to you in more detail at some point tomorrow. For now, it is way past my bedtime and I'm beyond tired. Hopefully, the post linked above gives some insight, however rambling it may be, on where my thoughts are at.

I fully agree with your above post. I think it's simply a matter of middle-ground and not using incendiary language purposefully, as well as taking extra pains to be extremely rigorous in conveying precisely what one is trying to say on controversial issues.

I am actually highly sympathetic to the female-rights issue that came up, but I think that the manner in which this issue is often debated on here is more counterproductive to the cause, and incites more knee-jerk defensive responses than illuminating the issues at hand. In particular, I think that your treatment of these issues is a perfect example of how they should be discussed-- analytically, measured, clearly, even-handedly (your above post is an excellent example of this).

I think that there are a lot of aspects to feminism and understanding the female plight that may not be as widely understood or acknowledged, and I think that discussion of these aspects are a very good thing (and why the PtP threads continue to be among my favorites). There's also the fact that feminism has multiple interpretations and different schools of thought, and debate along these lines is really interesting to me as well.

Where I find myself becoming uncomfortable with the discussion is when there is a judgment placed on other posters for not seeing or sympathizing with these issues/ characters, which happens pretty much everywhere outside of the PtP and other reread threads. I become torn, because while I sometimes want to make a "feminist argument," I end up feeling like I should intervene about the more egregious assertions (especially, as was the case in this thread, where no one came close to making problematic statements about Cersei based on gender).

I think that some of the statements in this thread serve to harm the sympathetic position Cersei faces as a piece of chattel than it does to give her choices some kind of foundation in reason, largely because of the way the arguments were framed (not sympathizing = victim blamer). If this wasn't truly what was intended, then I think it's still problematic for a few reasons, but namely A. the lack of precision of intent ruffles everyone's feathers, because, let's face it, that's pretty offensive, and B. because everyone's now offended, any virtue of that position is lost in the ether. And this isn't just a problem in this particular thread, but a recurring issue when certain characters are discussed (just as the holy trinity of Cat-Sansa-Dany hate has an opposing set of problems).

There's definitely a middle ground (I see it in all the reread threads, which admittedly tend to me more intensive, limited projects), but I think the vast majority of character threads could benefit from modified tone and language from both sides when discussing these issues. It completely shuts off the discussion when it feels like you're being accused of categorically hating women, or feel shamed into not sympathizing with a character because it's being extended into applying one's attitude toward gender as a whole. I think these issues need to be brought up more, but done so in a way that no one feels personally attacked or insulted. That's really the issue I have; I think it gets carried away and feels like bullying sometimes (at least in terms of some of the posts here).

[Summer is Ending]

So anybody else think of Cersei singing 'I did it my way' everytime they see this thread?

[Kolantero]

I wholeheartedly agree and that should work for both males and females. Of course, it's natural that as readers we'll have our own sympathies/preferences/prejudices, but I think overall the reason why you see an attempt to offer more nuanced and yes, actively sympathetic readings of some female characters is because of the overwhelmingly negative response their actions receive in the fandom vs those of their male counterparts. We can talk till we're blue in the face about respecting the agency of characters, but until this unequal response is acknowledged, we're not going to get very far.

I think the Underlined part is a very good example of the Bolded part

[straits]

Imagine a male Cersei. Now imagine sympathizing with that demonic bastard.