The Great Bolton Inconsistency

[Frey Pie]

Im gunna repeat again my favourite theory-Roose is an agent of the Others, or a relative of the Nights King

He has those weird eyes, as does Ramsay (his only reason for taking on his son)

In Dance Theon has this vision where he sees the various lords in guises such as the Umber being a gargoyle IIRC. Roose is described as having dirty chips of ice for eyes

He shows no care for his prospective kids, even though he knows Ramsay will kill them and be the death of his house

He personally kills Robb Stark

His son attempts to goad Jon Snow into coming south, where he can be easily done away with

He leeches his blood to keep it pure, and advises Ramsay to do so also

He has corespondance with Qyburn, a known necromancer (sort of)

All he does is destabilise the North, making the invasion more likely to succeed

Theres that book he found in HH-look up the description of how it burns. Very suspect

[rodrik Cassel]

He's joking.

who?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

As a poster who has stumbled into leading the charge for the Count Rooseula theory, naturally I'm going to lock on to this thread.

Like was said in the post I liked on page 1, the theory does not say Roose is or will be undead. A comparison to Ser Robert Von Frankengregor is like comparing apples to oranges. Bear in mind, GRRM comes very close to recreating classic horror movie monsters in ASOIAF but they all are given his unique twist that makes them internally consistent with the world he's created, they are all a little "off" from what we'd recognize and he never, obviously, actually uses the term.

Beric Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart (and Melisandre?) are never referred to as zombies in the books. We do so on these forums for expediency, of course, but the term never shows up in the books. The closest we come is the use of the synonymous "wight" in reference to the dead bodies reanimated by The Others. And of course Beric and Lady Stoneheart are not unthinking shamblers, and while the wights are, they don't chow down on people's brains. Mirri Maz Dur is pejoratively called "maegi" instead of "witch" though she clearly fills this role and even looks the part. The Warging Stark Kids are not truly werewolves, either -- much as Lancel might try to accuse Robb of being one (and note he never uses that term, but his tall tale at court matches the myth. "He turned into a wolf and attacked us") -- but obviously their skinchanging ability combined with their keeping direwolves as pets, those pets typically being their first warg-subject, and instances throughout the series of the wolves acting like familiars and "coming to the rescue" when they sense a threat to the Stark kid in question (betraying a clearly supernatural connection between the kids and the wolves), creates a close simulation. Ser Robert Strong, well, we the fandom nicknamed him FrankenGregor for years until we finally got the last book in which he appeared with a handy alias. He is never referred to by characters as a Frankenstein's Monster (and why would they, there's no Dr. Frankenstein in their universe to spawn the term) nor is he ever named Golem in the text. But we know something like that is up, since the passages with Qyburn building to this in AFFC were about as subtle as a sledgehammer. Gregor is dead. They sent his skull to Dorne. Yet a near 8 foot tall man is walking around court at King's Landing, and he never speaks, never takes his mask off, never eats, never goes to the privy. All incredibly suspicious and spooky, particularly since everybody knows Ser Gregor was the only man ever to be that big & tall. Dead men do not shit. Gregor is dead, yet there he stands, somehow.

So in this vein, we on the forums float this theory about Roose as the "Roose = Vampire" theory for expediency in discussing the idea among ourselves. He's not going to be a vampire in the classic Bram Stoker sense. He's not going to be sleeping in coffins or wither when exposed to sunlight and he's not going to become violently ill if you wave a seven sided star at him or anything like that. He is, as this theory goes, not even going to be drinking blood, not literally anyway. If anything, hilariously enough, he reverses the polarity of the vampire creature we're used to -- he drains himself of blood via leeches, rather than the other way around. Like the Warging Stark not-quite-werewolves, Roose is the closest simulation of the classic monster in the Westeros universe. He's a little "off" from the myth and the term will never show up in the books, but he fills the niche. His fascination with grisly torture echoing Vlad The Impaler -- the real life inspiration for Dracula -- is a nice bonus, as is his "unnaturally smooth" skin, always suggesting he looks younger than he actually is. As if he has tried to follow in Lady Bathory's (another real world figure who has been fodder for Vampire mythos) footsteps and somehow succeeded.

But, as this theory goes, he is vampiric in that one key sense that he requires -- or will require -- the blood of others to sustain himself. That blood will come in the form of sacrificial blood magic (perhaps not unlike what we saw from Mirri Maz Dur back at the end of the first book, only not intentionally half-assing it as a form of revenge like MMD), and just because Roose is such a clearly evil dude with no emotional attachment to anything and no ultimate loyalty to anything but his own self, it's a short leap to decide it's thematically appropriate that it be his own children he sacrifices -- none of them are suitable heirs so he's justified (in his mind) in outliving them anyway. And in so doing, he will live much longer than a normal human being should be able to do, even in Westeros where Maester Aemon and Old Nan suggest that living to 100 is fairly doable if not actually common.

And it would mean he has to and will take Ramsay out himself, and really, who wouldn't enjoy seeing that? :) "All you have I gave you, you would do well to remember that, bastard" reads like Roose's final warning to Ramsay and to us: evil as Ramsay is Roose is far worse, and should Ramsay cease to be useful to his old man or even dare to actually challenge him, Ramsay will learn this the hard way. [i'll go on record as saying, vampire crackpot theory or not, that I think ADWD has a lot of textual clues that foreshadow Roose eliminating Ramsay, such that I expect that to happen before the last page of TWOW.]

It is also tempting to imagine there was something sinister or verboten in the book he read then destroyed while at Harrenhal, or else why would Roose take the deliberately logic step to destroy it and thus ensure no one else could ever again gain the knowledge he gained from that book, or even find out what he was studying? Roose's general creepiness and fascination with prolonging his own life through more mundane means (prunes, leeching) tend to lead us in this direction.

Not that I think Roose will succeed, mind you. Vampires usually get found out for what they are and take a stake in their chest for their trouble. As the nameless guard advised Arya way back when, Wizards die the same as anyone else when you cut their head off. Just because Bolton thinks it will work doesn't mean it will (Lady Bathory again). Even if the ritual blood sacrifice of his children does give Bolton the potential to live a few extra decades and either create a suitable heir at last/just have his own fun, Stannis is likely to cut his time short anyway.

Here:

http://asoiaf.wester...al-lady-dustin/

Is a handy link, and a thread I keep bookmarked. It's an old thread by now but I find it a convenient reference for all Crackpot Theories swirling around Roose Bolton. Its rather long and a bit much for one sitting, I find, but there's all sorts of good crackpot stuff in there. Everything from he's a vampire to he's an other sympathizer/agent to Ramsay's mom is an other to Roose actually killed Domeric for not being "Bolton enough" and has successfully framed Ramsay for it in order to keep him under control (somewhat). There's even a bit about Harrenhal's curse being related to background radiation resulting from when Aegon's dragons first burnt it. A bit too crackpot for me (too much sci-fi in my fantasy) but it's good for a hoot.

EDIT: wow, I went on and on. tl;dr much? :)

[Gurkhal]

Now, I've heard some theories that Roose Bolton might intend to become immortal, or undead, but as we know from the ADWD epilogue...

So, if Roose Bolton is (or intends to become) undead, why is he so concerned with his bowel movements?

And with this post, I put the 'Roose Bolton is trying to become undead' theory to rest.

For me this probably takes the price so far in regards to crackpot.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

For me this probably takes the price so far in regards to crackpot.

Nah, I saw a thread a couple months back that suggested Ned Stark was still alive.

THAT is going to be tough to beat. :)

(this is close though, yes)

[Larry of the Lawn]

He said himself that he's to old to see any new sons to manhood, but that just might be what he has in mind.

His age is not clearly revealed, but since he goes hunting, leads men into battle and is not even gray haired he can't be much older than 55, I'd say 65 at the very most.

With his careful living he should be able to hang in another 15 years, which should be enough to pass on the lordship to his new sons by Walda. He just has to take care of Ramsay first. The legitimizing might just be a way to avoid suspicion that he was involved in his unlikable son's death.

I'm pretty sure he's described as being in his forties, definitely not older than 50. And in the books isn't he either bald or grey haired? I think Cat describes him in ACOK.

edit: he's described as 'well past forty' by Theon. no mention of his hair, although the wiki art shows him with a full head of brown hair.

[Gurkhal]

He has those weird eyes, as does Ramsay (his only reason for taking on his son)

People say that Eddard's frozen eyes shows his fronzen heart, but we know that isn't true. The Others have intense bright blue eyes if I recall so not much there that I can see.

In Dance Theon has this vision where he sees the various lords in guises such as the Umber being a gargoyle IIRC. Roose is described as having dirty chips of ice for eyes

I think this is an methapor that Roose is either a cold hearted person or that his eyes looks like that.

He shows no care for his prospective kids, even though he knows Ramsay will kill them and be the death of his house

This is incorrect. He tells Theon, Ramsay's pet, that he don't care about his prospective kids. As we should know Roose isn't alwats 100% honest so I think that he was just feeding Ramsay, through Theon, the lines that he wanted to hear. Remember that Ramsay is a madman and so needs some careful manipulation to make sure he don't run off and do some crazt shit. I think that Roose just knows how to play him.

He personally kills Robb Stark

So? Roose turned on Robb and everyone knew that Robb had to die. And the Northmen do their own dirty work, which means that Roose did the killing himself instead of sending and underling. You can compare this to how Eddard executed the deserter himself and would've gone after Gregor Clegane himself if he had not been wounded. That how they do stuff up north.

His son attempts to goad Jon Snow into coming south, where he can be easily done away with

This has little to do with Roose to be honest. Any thinking individual who is not a retarded would recognize Jon as an ally to Stannis after all the help that Stannis has gotten from Jon.

He leeches his blood to keep it pure, and advises Ramsay to do so also

That's healthy living, Medieval style, for you.

He has corespondance with Qyburn, a known necromancer (sort of)

He does? Wasn't aware of that.

All he does is destabilise the North, making the invasion more likely to succeed

All he does is destablizing the Starks position in order to make himself top dog in the North. I think the explination that Roose is trying to become Warden of the North himself explains things as well if not better than having him as a ally to the Others.

Theres that book he found in HH-look up the description of how it burns. Very suspect

I don't recall that it burned in any special way at all.

[flidderman]

(snip)

I think you've definitely nailed the Transylvanian influences on the Bolton House (Dreadfort = Bran Castle; Roose = Bathory; Ramsay = Vlad), but I have my reserves about any actual supernatural elements coming into play there before the end of the series. I doubt they will even last much longer.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

I think you've definitely nailed the Transylvanian influences on the Bolton House (Dreadfort = Bran Castle; Roose = Bathory; Ramsay = Vlad), but I have my reserves about any actual supernatural elements coming into play there before the end of the series. I doubt they will even last much longer.

The Transylvanian influences on House Bolton are fairly easy targets to hit. It's pretty straightforward, no great work on my part. :)

It's definitely easier to "see" vampiric Bolton once you pick up on the Vlad/Bathory influence, though of course it does not prove anything.

You know, it'd be a great move on GRRM's part to consciously borrow from the same historical figures that inspired Dracula/Vampires in the first place and use them in turn to inspire the Boltons, anticipating that people would want to continue with the thread and leap to the vampire conclusion, but ultimately have this not be the case. "Ha ha ha, those fools, got 'em again!"

[FittleLinger]

The Transylvanian influences on House Bolton are fairly easy targets to hit. It's pretty straightforward, no great work on my part. :)

It's definitely easier to "see" vampiric Bolton once you pick up on the Vlad/Bathory influence, though of course it does not prove anything.

You know, it'd be a great move on GRRM's part to consciously borrow from the same historical figures that inspired Dracula/Vampires in the first place and use them in turn to inspire the Boltons, anticipating that people would want to continue with the thread and leap to the vampire conclusion, but ultimately have this not be the case. "Ha ha ha, those fools, got 'em again!"

Or if there is such a connection, it just goes to show us that there was nothing supernatural, but they come from tales of cruel, treacherous lords, which floklore tends to supernaturalize.

[HotPie!]

I think Bolton is just a sociopath. Vampires as an archetype are actually pretty dramatic and emotional. Bolton is certainly not. I think Martin spent so much time making 'grey' characters that be threw in an entirely evil character just to mix things up. There is nothing redeeming about Bolton but by making him a sociopath this feels more realistic. This is what it looks like when someone is incapable of empathy.

[Arland]

Another point in favor of Bolton's weirdness. Boltons are one of ancient northern houses who stood against Starks for centuries. Considering that Starks have their ancient hereditary magic powers it is only fitting that their major rival will have some ancient "magic" of it's own.

[FittleLinger]

Another point in favor of Bolton's weirdness. Boltons are one of ancient northern houses who stood against Starks for centuries. Considering that Starks have their ancient hereditary magic powers it is only fitting that their major rival will have some ancient "magic" of it's own.

First of all, it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Boltons are Stark's arch-enemies, but yes, I see what you are saying.

Are you familiar with the theory, that the Boltons might have been jealous of the Starks' skinchanging abilities, and that's why they tried to imitate it by flaying and literaly wearing skins? It's very interesting.

[Arland]

First of all, it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Boltons are Stark's arch-enemies, but yes, I see what you are saying.

Are you familiar with the theory, that the Boltons might have been jealous of the Starks' skinchanging abilities, and that's why they tried to imitate it by flaying and literaly wearing skins? It's very interesting.

It fits with the idea that their sigils represent their "magic" power. Starks have their dire wolfs and show their power on their banners. So Bolton's powers has to have something with flaying and blood letting - their sigil is bloody flayed man.

[FittleLinger]

It fits with the idea that their sigils represent their "magic" power. Starks have their dire wolfs and show their power on their banners. So Bolton's powers has to have something with flaying and blood letting - their sigil is bloody flayed man.

Frankly, I don't believe the Boltons have magical powers, or that their sigil represents that. But I find insightful the notion that they so much wanted to have them (skinchanging) that they tried doing it literaly.

[Ingelheim]

God. Just, god. I've never heard about this before.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Frankly, I don't believe the Boltons have magical powers, or that their sigil represents that. But I find insightful the notion that they so much wanted to have them (skinchanging) that they tried doing it literaly.

Oh I definitely agree, regardless of whether the Bolton bloodline has any magic in play or not, the flaying tradition started as a response to the Stark reputation for skinchanging and was initially their idea on how to "fight" the magic the Starks had and were rumored to have, and/or to steal it for themselves. After all, one of the first things mentioned about House Bolton is the rumor that the skins of their old enemies -- including past Lord Starks -- still hang from the rafters of the Dreadfort. They have historically flayed their enemies in general, and the Starks of the past are specifically named as one such victim. Probably the first victims.

[The Mother of The Others]

Well he's seen the innards of so many people's flayed bodies that he's probably been grossed out by how many Westerosi are in need of a severe colon cleanse. So he's learning to keep his insides clean, so he'll be pretty when stripped of skin by Ramsay. He wants to make a good last impression.

I wouldn't be extremely offended if the Boltons had their own vampire research project going all these generations and it started to really pay off now that magic has returned to make things possible that were only theoretical until now. They could now "easily" attach their accumulated knowledge of anatomy to dark ritual and finalize the transition into vampirism or what have you.

Also, one theory as to what's going on in the north right now is that Roose is trying to get Ramsay killed by anchoring him to Winterfell and then stirring up maximum chaos, perhaps even penning 'the letter' himself. Though, of course, this would be silly, since Roose would be risking his own status too. Not likely, then. It is a strange game going on twixt the two of them. Legitimizing Ramsay isn't what you'd call the smart move at first glance because it gives the kid a green light to gank poppy. But Roose also appears unafraid by doing so, like he's equal to the risk and is man enough to still take Ramsay if it came down to that. And it makes Ramsay a fan of pops for a while, maybe buying some time for Roose to find a means of ridding himself of the boy. Or, is Roose perfectly happy with his son in truth, because he's produced someone scary enough to spook even him, which is a sure sign that Ramsay is the right guy for the Dreadfort???

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Or, is Roose perfectly happy with his son in truth, because he's produced someone scary enough to spook even him, which is a sure sign that Ramsay is the right guy for the Dreadfort???

It would explain why Roose would accept Ramsay in spite of Ramsay murdering Domeric, who Roose seems to miss when he talks of him to Theon.

Domeric was "corrupted" by his fostering, too filled up with the milk of human kindness in addition to a bunch of "soft" southron conceits like lute playing. He needed to be taken out because he was no longer "Bolton Enough" to inherit the Dreadfort. So Roose told Domeric where Ramsay was in the hope that Domeric would be foolish and "soft" enough to seek him out (he did) and that Ramsay, in turn, would make his bones and prove his worthiness by taking Domeric out (which he did).

Though this in turn begs the question of why Domeric was fostered in the first place.

[Arland]

Oh I definitely agree, regardless of whether the Bolton bloodline has any magic in play or not, the flaying tradition started as a response to the Stark reputation for skinchanging and was initially their idea on how to "fight" the magic the Starks had and were rumored to have, and/or to steal it for themselves. After all, one of the first things mentioned about House Bolton is the rumor that the skins of their old enemies -- including past Lord Starks -- still hang from the rafters of the Dreadfort. They have historically flayed their enemies in general, and the Starks of the past are specifically named as one such victim. Probably the first victims.

It resonates well with RL cannibalistic traditions of eating enemy body parts to get his strength, wisdom and cet.

Anyhow running with my theory - wearing skins of flayed men should be magical. Besides smelling of blood magic, we know for sure it works with dead people skins - see house of Black and White and it even allows a wearer to have something from the previous skin's owner. If it works so well with dead skins of faces, owners of which didn't even suffer, it should work much better with "fresh whole body skins" whose owners suffered immensely (if we see in fear and suffering some kind of magical energy,which is consistent with blood magic ethos).

Can it be that Starks stopped flaying habits of Boltons not out of some moral considerations (in those ages Starks were not so nice at all - see their way to deal with slavers in White Hrabor) but as a means to take away Bolton's "magic" ?