Bran and so-called Warging Ethics

[Legitimate Businessman]

The skill itself seems so wasted on a cripple. I hope that this is not all some dream sequence that Bran has conjured up in his mind

[NorthRemembers]

Bran knows it's wrong. As someone else pointed out, he continually tries to reassure both himself and hodor that it is temporary; that is isn't meant to harm. It sounds to me that he often trying to convince himself rather than Hodor.

Besides out of nescessity, Bran has done it for pleasure. Keep in mind, he is a crippled boy without family that once dreamed of being a knight. To say that these dreams have been shattered would be an understatement. I honestly think he has trouble control that burning desire to walk again, and it using Hodor for that. As a child, he is smart and ethical enough to know it's wrong, but young and just weak enough to not be able to resist the able-bodied, but not able-minded Hodor.

It's a black mark, but not a damning one; yet.

[Legitimate Businessman]

Bran knows it's wrong. As someone else pointed out, he continually tries to reassure both himself and hodor that it is temporary; that is isn't meant to harm. It sounds to me that he often trying to convince himself rather than Hodor.

Besides out of nescessity, Bran has done it for pleasure. Keep in mind, he is a crippled boy without family that once dreamed of being a knight. To say that these dreams have been shattered would be an understatement. I honestly think he has trouble control that burning desire to walk again, and it using Hodor for that. As a child, he is smart and ethical enough to know it's wrong, but young and just weak enough to not be able to resist the able-bodied, but not able-minded Hodor.

It's a black mark, but not a damning one; yet.

That part about still becoming a knight is a powerful one. However, I often wonder if he had heeded Maester Luwin's advice and studied at the Citadel, who is to say that he may of come across in his studies dark and mysterious ways to cure his ailment. Luwin afterall was one of the few Maester's to have studied in the magic arts

[No one Stark]

if you couldn't walk or really do anything you'd probably warg hodor too

[LadyMary]

I think Bran is an innocent child who is a powerful warg with no one to teach him the ethics. Unfortunately, that means he experiments on his own and ends up misuses his gift by violating another person - essentially a mind rape.

I think that kind of power could corrupt him, but he's not a bad person at heart. He needs to be taught not to use his gift to hurt people. Otherwise, he'll justify it in his own mind. Hopefully, his new mentor Bloodraven will tell him to stop. We'll see.

[Dolorous Nedd]

The skill itself seems so wasted on a cripple. I hope that this is not all some dream sequence that Bran has conjured up in his mind

I think one could argue that the fact he is crippled makes it more likely to fully realize his full potential. Bloodraven is beyond crippled in his current state...

[Dolorous Nedd]

When? He helped Sam to pass the Wall only for the selfish reason that his undead servant isn't able to cross the Nightfort. He has no contact with Jon or other Starks whatsoever, or did I miss something? Fact is, we don't know his agenda. He explained Bran nothing. AT ALL. The Children either. There is still enough space for a dark twist in every direction. But not because Bran is a horrible, evil person, more because he has no other choice. They are pretty much trapped up there, surrounded by winter and zombies. Yeah, I agree that Bran is using Hodor as a replacement for his legs. But still... in this situation... can you really blame him? I just hope Meera will chastise him, when it comes out, I share the common opinion that he treats him sometimes awefully. But at the end of the day, they have more life-threatening problems.

It is my belief that Bloodraven arranged for the Stark children to get the direwolves. He probably warged the mother and sent her to a place he knew they would be going. He has also helped Jon by warging Mormont's raven. I'm quite sure he was also the source of some of Jon's prophetic dream when he was ranging north of the Wall.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Omg...can we like, keep the rape stuff out of here? :ack:

Please?

Bran warging Hodor is Bran's grey area. Its not right and he knows it. He keeps it a secret from Jojen and Meera and its really clear the only reason he does it is because of Hodor's wits. Or lack thereof. Hodor cant tell anyone that Bran is hanging out in his mind and stuff. Hodor was the only one among them that was strong enough to actually do something. Like what happened at Queenscrown, etc. So Bran found himself slipping into Hodor to try to calm him down or have him perform something that desperately needed to happen. Emergencies. In the caves, Bran finds himself bored and wargs into Hodor to explore the caves. This is a huge no-no. While its a no-no to begin with, emergency circumstances could be justified. Warging Hodor just to hang out with Jojen and Meera is not exactly cool.

The really creepy part about it is that Hodor is resisting less and less. At first, he was terrified and that disturbed Bran enough to not do it again unless absolutely necessary. But the last time we see the warging happen, Hodor sort of just goes into a corner. I think this is actually the part that Bran doesnt quite understand. He understands the fear Hodor had initially, and how the action could be bad juju. (Why else hide it from the Reeds and even Bloodraven?) But Hodor's seeming complacency in terms of simply retreating and what that means for a human mind versus an animal mind, is something Bran has yet to understand. In fact, i think this might be explored a bit in his arc to come.

[jons nissa]

I see nothing wrong with consensual warging, if the warg has the permission of the person being warged.

I think what Bran did was bad but not evil, my brother put my in the dryer when i was little, i think of it similar.

i am assuming he got in trouble for that. so after knowing it was not a good thing to do, did he do it again? bran does.

I think that the ethics of it will be a trial that GRRM uses to test Bran; something that he is challenged by, fails a little at at first but ultimately overcomes. Otherwise he's just sat in a cave learning stuff and watching things, and his storyline is going to get pretty dry pretty quick.

i agree with this. we have to see if he will chose not to do it despite wanting to because he knows it's a bad thing to do.

[Lion of Judah]

Before Bran met Bloodraven he was not taught to be responsible with his abilities. Jojen tries to guide him the best that he can, but Jojen only knows so much, hence the need to get beyond the wall and be trained by Bloodraven. Up to that point he is doing a fun parlor trick by warging Hodor.

[otherbeef]

does Hodor still fight Bran's warging/not like it by the end of Dance when Bran has done it a few times? i can't recall but i thought Bran said something to the effect of Hodor goes away in his mind when Bran is in there or something like that

[Florina Laufeyson]

does Hodor still fight Bran's warging/not like it by the end of Dance when Bran has done it a few times? i can't recall but i thought Bran said something to the effect of Hodor goes away in his mind when Bran is in there or something like that

Not really, and thats part of the point in my post. Hodor more or less stops resisting and just crawls into a corner.

[jons nissa]

Before Bran met Bloodraven he was not taught to be responsible with his abilities. Jojen tries to guide him the best that he can, but Jojen only knows so much, hence the need to get beyond the wall and be trained by Bloodraven. Up to that point he is doing a fun parlor trick by warging Hodor.

i agree that bran has not been taught anything about warging however for you to say it is a fun trick really minimizes the situation. bran feels hodor's fear and discomfort. this is not fun and it is not trick. he is completely aware that this action is unwelcome by hodor and attempts to justify it to himself.

"Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering? No one must ever know."

"No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do."

"Good, Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten" - Master Luwin

[Lion of Judah]

i agree that bran has not been taught anything about warging however for you to say it is a fun trick really minimizes the situation. bran feels hodor's fear and discomfort. this is not fun and it is not trick. he is completely aware that this action is unwelcome by hodor and attempts to justify it to himself.

"Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering? No one must ever know."

"No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do."

"Good, Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten" - Master Luwin

I'm not minimizing the situation. To Bran it's nothing but a fun trick, he knows that Hodor doesn't like being warged. The feeling of being inside someone else peaks his curiosity and that curiosity prevents him from considering the effects on Hodor. I think it's a big deal, but I would also point out that he warged Hodor and saved their lives several times. I don't think it's as big of a deal now because he is being trained by Bloodraven. If he were to do it again just for the fun of it then I would say he has a problem.

[jons nissa]

does Hodor still fight Bran's warging/not like it by the end of Dance when Bran has done it a few times? i can't recall but i thought Bran said something to the effect of Hodor goes away in his mind when Bran is in there or something like that

are you asking if hodor doesn't fight it anymore to argue that what bran is doing is ok? if so:

Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt him, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it's me, the boy liked to tell himself. He's used to me by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable inside Hodor's skin. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth.

[jons nissa]

I'm not minimizing the situation. To Bran it's nothing but a fun trick, he knows that Hodor doesn't like being warged. The feeling of being inside someone else peaks his curiosity and that curiosity prevents him from considering the effects on Hodor. I think it's a big deal, but I would also point out that he warged Hodor and saved their lives several times. I don't think it's as big of a deal now because he is being trained by Bloodraven. If he were to do it again just for the fun of it then I would say he has a problem.

i guess i don't understand how something is fun if you know the person doesn't like it. also, i disagree that he is curious about being inside hodor. he uses him, plain and simple. at first because it was necessary but now he does it just because he wants to.

If he were to do it again just for the fun of it then I would say he has a problem.

he is already doing "just for the fun".

Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him.

[Lion of Judah]

i guess i don't understand how something is fun if you know the person doesn't like it. also, i disagree that he is curious about being inside hodor. he uses him, plain and simple. at first because it was necessary but now he does it just because he wants to.

he is already doing "just for the fun".

Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him.

I don't think he has warged Hodor since he has been with Bloodraven. Has he?

[danm_999]

I don't think he has warged Hodor since he has been with Bloodraven. Has he?

He uses Hodor to explore the caves the COTF live in.

[Lion of Judah]

He uses Hodor to explore the caves the COTF live in.

Has Bloodraven mentioned anything to him thus far about warging humans?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Has Bloodraven mentioned anything to him thus far about warging humans?

Not that we know of.

(Nevertheless Bran can of course still be expected to know that there's a problem with what he's doing to Hodor as he knows the effect it has on Hodor very well. And considering how apprehensive Bran is about anyone finding out, it's clear that he does know it.)