Bran and so-called Warging Ethics

[Castel]

Throughout the chapter, Jon is torn, he knows he has to leave Ygritte, and part of him wants to, and part of him doesn't, and he's looking at her world, and his. And he's seeing, as the text says, "the wall between their worlds". The chapter is full of his thoughts about this. And he makes his break right after this. I think that scene was set up to underscore all of this. The scene, if just about scouts and testing loyalty, could have been written without the exchange between him and Ygritte, and her saying "I'm no crow wife", and killing the man. And Jon saying, "No."

I...still don't see your point. There is a difference between Westeros proper and the lands beyond the Wall. No one is denying that, danm_99's post is in fact, highlighting that. So Jon knows that there's a cultural gap between them, I don't see how that matters to the moral issues he was talking about. No one is saying that they're the same, we're saying that the wildlings aren't just barbarians. As for that gap, I think that that's more of a Jon thing. After all, Qhorin asked him to do something very similar and his response was more or less the same.

[A Dance With Daario]

I think the children of the forest are evil ...

The andal's killed them for a reason ...

[Le Cygne]

As for that gap, I think that that's more of a Jon thing. After all, Qhorin asked him to do something very similar and his response was more or less the same.

If you'll note, I said I wasn't disagreeing with what had been said about the Wildlings. But I thought there was additional insight in this chapter.

I think the way the chapter is constructed, "wilding to the bone" and "wall between their worlds", it's pretty clear he's contrasting the two cultures throughout.

Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them. Did that mean he must stand mute and helpless while they slit an old man’s throat?

That's repeated several times throughout the chapter, too. When Ygritte points out he almost killed her - and the key point here is, he chose not to - he says this:

“That was different. You were soldiers . . . sentries.”

Another difference. It's about differences, not judgement. I don't think he's judging them at all.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I don't thin his age should be an excuse but it's a fact,he is young and at that age children are often misconstrued as evil but are in fact plain selfish. We have young boy who after learning he will never walk again is put to a moral trial.He is given what he craves the most.Most grown men would give in to temptation let alone a boy with no moral, or any,authority to forbid him to do so. Children put themselves first,they are selfish,they know no boundaries,they have us parents to teach them.Empathy is what they learn,sharing,the fact they can't always have what they want,the fact they can't put their needs first no matter how much it hurts not to do so is all what they learn.He has no one to learn from,he is doing what any child would do in his shoes,he takes advantage of the situation until adults don't find out about it.This just makes him selfish,child,imho not evil child. Some of the most cruel and selfish behavior I witnessed among children, and those children are beautiful, kind persons they just don't have limits and they just don't know better until they learn,usually by tasting a bit of their own medicine,and I would never ever call any of them evil.

[Castel]

If you'll note, I said I wasn't disagreeing with what had been said about the Wildlings. But I thought there was additional insight in this chapter.

I think the way the chapter is constructed, "wilding to the bone" and "wall between their worlds", it's pretty clear he's contrasting the two cultures throughout.

He is. No one ever claimed that the two cultures were the same, people said the exact opposite. So Jon comparing them makes perfect sense.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

1. we have examples of animals being treated humanely by children. tommen is an example so we can presume that children even younger than bran are capable of forming some sort of moral and ethical code.

It is unfair to compare tommen with bran. Bran has been through life threatening situations like being thrown out of the window and mental trauma of seeing you home burnt by someone who he thought his friend. Tommen on the other hand never lost his mother, has every comfort of the world. Pre-crippled bran was as good as tommen is.

As for OP's view, I agree that age is an excuse for bran's behavior regarding hodor. I'm not saying that warging hodor against his will is not wrong, because it totally is! What I'm saying that it's not bran's fault he is misusing his new found powers. In real world children do bad things. Yet we don't say that they are evil or sinister. We teach them from right to wrong.

[The guy from the Vale]

It is unfair to compare tommen with bran. Bran has been through life threatening situations like being thrown out of the window and mental trauma of seeing you home burnt by someone who he thought his friend. Tommen on the other hand never lost his mother, has every comfort of the world. Pre-crippled bran was as good as tommen is.

As for OP's view, I agree that age is an excuse for bran's behavior regarding hodor. I'm not saying that warging hodor against his will is not wrong, because it totally is! What I'm saying that it's not bran's fault he is misusing his new found powers. In real world children do bad things. Yet we don't say that they are evil or sinister. We teach them from right to wrong.

Eh, that depends a lot on whether you think Joffrey abused Tommen...

[Ladylance]

If you replace skinchanging with rape, does being too young to understand make it ok? That said, I suppose rape is seen as acceptable in certain factions of Westerosi society. I can't see Ned Stark telling his kids it was anything other than awful, though.

Bran knows Hodor doesn't like it, and if it was any other human character in the series, I think people would take it a lot worse than if it was Hodor, because, due to his learning difficulties, he's sort of dehumanised- little more than a beast of burden (That said, I think the post saying he is no different to a horse is really offensive). In fact though, we don't actually know what hodor thinks and feels, only that he has some kind of comunication disorder- being a stableboy isn't necessarily a simple job and he seems cabable of understanding and following quite complex instructions on occasion.

Presumably no-one thinks it was ok for Varamyr to try and take over Thistle's body?

However, arguably the most concerning parts of "Hodor-warging" are:

Bran starting to lose his identity as a person- specifically:

Under the hill, Jojen brooded, Meera fretted, and Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering?

Hopefully we can all agree that does not bode well for him?

Also, can we agree the bit where he contemplates using Hodor as a proxy in his relationship with Meera is just plain weird.

I could put on Hodor's skin, he thought, Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back

Obviously, he doesn't do this, which is a good thing.

I'm not making the point that Bran's evil. Nearly everyone in the books are basically shades of grey, some are just darker than others. I think Bran's storyline is meant to be scary in places, but that's a good thing. I'm both scared for Bran (and Jojen and Meera and Hodor), and scared of what Bran could become. Bran (like his sisters) is losing some of his identity, just in a different way. He (like his sisters) needs someone to call him back from that, or at the very least, he's going to spend the rest of his life as a tree.

Bear in mind, despite wanting to be a knight, Bran's favourite stories are supposed to have been the scary ones. I don't quite know the significance of this (except maybe just foreshadowing?) but it feels relevant.

Also, I think most of Haggon's rules of warging have reasons behind them- e.g. he says birds make bad parteners because people end up wanting to spend all their time flying. I think there are logical reasons behind his other rules too- mainly that if people find out you're doing these things (eating human flesh, having sex with animals as an animal, possessing humans) then they are going to revile you as the worst kind of warg, and probably kill you in a horrible way. I think Haggon also knows that power is seductive, and thinks wargs need self discipline and to limit their powers (only using wolves and dogs as partners, because they're the easiest), or it's too easy to end up doing things that are going to get you killed.

So, whatever you think of wildling culture and if they have much wisdom worth considering (for the record I do think they have merits to their culture, and it is more egalitarian, meritocratic and democratic), Haggon's rules seem to make logical sense. I think we're supposed to percieve Varamyr as bad/stupid for breaking them.

Maybe I'm just oversensitive though- I didn't even like what Varamyr was doing with his Ice-bear.

ETA: Both quotes are from Bran III in ADWD.

[Winter's Knight]

Evil is a ludicrous word to apply to most characters in these books, Bran especially.

That said, his casual warging of Hodor, coupled with the man's own despair at each instance, as well as the fact that Bran has actually been taught that Hodor is a person and is to be treated as such are not the actions of a good person.

“A good lord comforts and protects the weak and helpless,” he told the Freys.“I will not have you making Hodor the butt of cruel jests, do you hear me? He’s a good-hearted lad, dutiful and obedient, which is more than I can say for either of you.”

...

“Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.”

“Good. Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten.”

[Asshai Hipster Town]

If you replace skinchanging with rape, does being too young to understand make it ok? That said, I suppose rape is seen as acceptable in certain factions of Westerosi society.

If we do exchange the words then it would mean that Bran warging into a snow bear is in essence Bran raping a snow bear. This would also be unsettling.

All this talk about warging Hodor being similar to raping him is quite crazy. Simply because it means that some people are ok with animals being raped.

[Dolorous Nedd]

The thing we have to remember is we have only seen one or two times where Bran warged Hodor where it wasn't justified due to an emergency. For all we know he stopped doing it. There is a long gap in the last book where we have no Bran POVs.

[Dolorous Nedd]

I think the children of the forest are evil ...

The andal's killed them for a reason ...

That is certainly the million dollar question. I just don't see it that way though. Bloodraven has obviously reached out to help Jon / the Starks a number of times. I think most us believe the Starks are good people in general. If the COF are evil then it would pretty obvious Bloodraven should have an evil agenda. Unless he is fooling the COF.

[Toth]

That is certainly the million dollar question. I just don't see it that way though. Bloodraven has obviously reached out to help Jon / the Starks a number of times. I think most us believe the Starks are good people in general. If the COF are evil then it would pretty obvious Bloodraven should have an evil agenda. Unless he is fooling the COF.

When? He helped Sam to pass the Wall only for the selfish reason that his undead servant isn't able to cross the Nightfort. He has no contact with Jon or other Starks whatsoever, or did I miss something? Fact is, we don't know his agenda. He explained Bran nothing. AT ALL. The Children either. There is still enough space for a dark twist in every direction. But not because Bran is a horrible, evil person, more because he has no other choice. They are pretty much trapped up there, surrounded by winter and zombies. Yeah, I agree that Bran is using Hodor as a replacement for his legs. But still... in this situation... can you really blame him? I just hope Meera will chastise him, when it comes out, I share the common opinion that he treats him sometimes awefully. But at the end of the day, they have more life-threatening problems.

[Ingelheim]

Bran is just a little boy, but what he has done is wrogn. You can't warg into anyone for pure enjoyment.

[Little Wing]

I don't thin his age should be an excuse but it's a fact,he is young and at that age children are often misconstrued as evil but are in fact plain selfish. We have young boy who after learning he will never walk again is put to a moral trial.He is given what he craves the most.Most grown men would give in to temptation let alone a boy with no moral, or any,authority to forbid him to do so. Children put themselves first,they are selfish,they know no boundaries,they have us parents to teach them.Empathy is what they learn,sharing,the fact they can't always have what they want,the fact they can't put their needs first no matter how much it hurts not to do so is all what they learn.He has no one to learn from,he is doing what any child would do in his shoes,he takes advantage of the situation until adults don't find out about it.This just makes him selfish,child,imho not evil child. Some of the most cruel and selfish behavior I witnessed among children, and those children are beautiful, kind persons they just don't have limits and they just don't know better until they learn,usually by tasting a bit of their own medicine,and I would never ever call any of them evil.

This. So much.

[Hill]

I think that the ethics of it will be a trial that GRRM uses to test Bran; something that he is challenged by, fails a little at at first but ultimately overcomes. Otherwise he's just sat in a cave learning stuff and watching things, and his storyline is going to get pretty dry pretty quick.

[Arya Targaryen]

I don't thin his age should be an excuse but it's a fact,he is young and at that age children are often misconstrued as evil but are in fact plain selfish. We have young boy who after learning he will never walk again is put to a moral trial.He is given what he craves the most.Most grown men would give in to temptation let alone a boy with no moral, or any,authority to forbid him to do so. Children put themselves first,they are selfish,they know no boundaries,they have us parents to teach them.Empathy is what they learn,sharing,the fact they can't always have what they want,the fact they can't put their needs first no matter how much it hurts not to do so is all what they learn.He has no one to learn from,he is doing what any child would do in his shoes,he takes advantage of the situation until adults don't find out about it.This just makes him selfish,child,imho not evil child. Some of the most cruel and selfish behavior I witnessed among children, and those children are beautiful, kind persons they just don't have limits and they just don't know better until they learn,usually by tasting a bit of their own medicine,and I would never ever call any of them evil.

:agree: Exactly what I wanted to write. Children being very cruel without realizing it, learning empathy and stuff. The question is: can they learn? Is there someone to teach them? I think Bran is a good person. Which brings us to...

If you replace skinchanging with rape, does being too young to understand make it ok? That said, I suppose rape is seen as acceptable in certain factions of Westerosi society. I can't see Ned Stark telling his kids it was anything other than awful, though.

There are several levels of rape, and it won't be obvious for a child. Hell, it is not even obvious for an average adult in Westeros. When Theon had sex with Kyra, was that rape? She was OK with it, mostly, but did she had a chance to say "no", really? She had put up an OK-face, and carried on. When a husband has sex with his wife, and she clearly isn't enjoying it, but doesn't put up a fight, is it rape? (and it is just an average marriage in mediavel times...)

If Bran tried to warg Thristle (the spearwife), she clearly would have objected to it. And Bran wouldn't have tried that another time. But Hodor, being a simpleton, doesn't put up a big fight. Bran realizes that he doesn't like it, but still, I don't think he fully understands how it might hurt Hodor. And he is a Lord's son. Lords may give orders to their people which they clearly don't like. I don't think he understands the difference between what he is doing to Hodor, and what is acceptable. Or he may, but tries to ignore it, because, well, he is a child, and there is no adult who can sit down next to him and explain it to him. If Ned was there, aware of what Bran is doing, and if he explained it to Bran, I'm sure he wouldn't try it next time.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

I see nothing wrong with consensual warging, if the warg has the permission of the person being warged.

I think what Bran did was bad but not evil, my brother put my in the dryer when i was little, i think of it similar.

[bemused]

Even though we see, through the Varamyr prologue , how abhorrent skinchangeing into another human can be , through Bran , we see that it can also be what saves everyone , including Hodor , in times of extreme danger... I just have a feeling that this may come into play again . Even Bran's explorations as Hodor, while starting out as thoughtless, even selfish , may serve some useful purpose , ultimately.

Perhaps they aren't all destined to stay in that cave forever..maybe not even Bran... Suppose there is ( or could be ) a tree throne under the heart tree in WF ? If WF ever becomes the frontline in their struggle against the Others , perhaps they'll need to return .. Perhaps there will need to be a working arrangement between Bran and Hodor , in order to get there. Hodor is strong and physically capable , but can't think what is best to do at a given moment.

We don't know where the story will go from here ,but shades of grey and exceptions to every rule may need to be remembered.. Of course Bran does need to learn more about the ethics .. but I doubt he would consciously use his powers in as unethical ways as Varamyr, who was a bad'n from the start .

[Ladylance]

With regards to the rape arguement, the language used in Varamyr's prologue, when he's trying to take Thistle's skin is pretty rape-y- in particular "forced himself inside her". I don't think it's ridiculous to draw the comparison. He's depriving someone of their freedom, their choice, their agency. Rape is one of the more similar crimes, so it makes sense to draw the comparison.

But ok- perhaps a better parallel is slavery, rather than rape- because it's considered ok to use animals for a purpose but not humans. So do we think children need to be told that slavery is wrong? Or do we think they just know it? The thing is, bran is 10, not, say 5. He's old enough to know certain things are wrong, and I believe Maester Luwin or Ned would have told him (for example when Jorah was exiled). Someone at some stage must have told him that slavery is wrong I think.

If it were Rickon, who is younger, and has had less of an education, then I would subscribe to the age arguement more, but Bran is older, old enough to know right from wrong in my opinion. Yes, I do give him some leway, due to his age and situation. I don't think he's evil. If it were an adult doing this, I would think it was worse than Bran doing it- but it doesn't make it not wrong. I'm more worried for Bran, at this stage. I don't think warging into Hodor is going to be good for him in the long run.

Btw, everyone using the "too young to know it's wrong" arguement, how old do you think is old enough to know it is wrong? (not trying to start a fight, genuinely curious).

I think that the ethics of it will be a trial that GRRM uses to test Bran; something that he is challenged by, fails a little at at first but ultimately overcomes. Otherwise he's just sat in a cave learning stuff and watching things, and his storyline is going to get pretty dry pretty quick.

I agree this is a way to inject drama into the storyline, I don't necessarily agree that this will be the end result. I think there are a lot of possible end results for this scenario- ranging from him realising what he's doing is wrong and stops (but that's pretty anticlimatic), to someone finding out and there being negative consequences for Bran (these negatives might eventually be positives- Bran leaves the children of the forest, and becomes Lord of Winterfell), to there being negative consequences for Bran because the magic isn't supposed to be used that way, and he starts to lose his sense of self. to Bran ultimately becoming a dark/evil character who takes control of people whenever it suits him.

Unfortunately, the first scenatio is arguably the most boring, so it's more likely Bran is going to face some kind of consequence for his actions.