Bran and so-called Warging Ethics

[Lion of Judah]

Not that we know of.

(Nevertheless Bran can of course still be expected to know that there's a problem with what he's doing to Hodor as he knows the effect it has on Hodor very well. And considering that Bran is terrified of anyone finding out, it's clear that he does know it.)

True, but I still give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he is turning into Varamyr 2.0, he seems to have forgiven Theon and helped him escape Winterfell. So I don't buy the argument that he will become evil, not Bran.

[LordStoneheart]

Yay, this topic seems to be going well. Good points all around.

But ok- perhaps a better parallel is slavery, rather than rape- because it's considered ok to use animals for a purpose but not humans.

This ^ is probably the best. Humans are just animals. Some may be offended when I said Hodor has pretty much just been a horse, but I don't mean to say he's lower than a human. I just mean to say that's the only purpose in the story he's really served. He doesn't have much else plot-wise. His whole existence was probably made up by GRRM for the sole purpose of getting Bran around after the fall.

Sure, t could be considered 'dehumanizing' to say that about him, but why does that have to be a bad thing? I don't consider animals lower than humans for the most part. The direwolves have shown they're intelligent, more so than other animals so far. So if most here are alright with warging animals, I see no difference with a human. Unless we could just consider all warging bad, but then that pretty much makes all the Stark children bad (save Sansa whose ability seems to be either still dormant or completely cut off, and possibly Robb. Who knows...)

[NorthRemembers]

I don't consider animals lower than humans for the most part. The direwolves have shown they're intelligent, more so than other animals so far. So if most here are alright with warging animals, I see no difference with a human.

I don't think most people consider animals and humans on the same level. Not that we can go around for sport, but to say that they merit all the considerations we give to humans is another thing entirely.

The fact is, no matter how you cut it, Hodor is still a human, despite what functions he may fufill. For Bran to take control if his mind is tandamount to slavary of a sort. Bran's internal thoughts have revealed he knows it's wrong, but the temptation to walk again has proven to much thus far.

[deerhunter]

It's wrong for him to warg Hodor, but I can understand the reasons why. There are a lot worse things to worry about than Bran and the one bad thing he does from time to time.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

When? He helped Sam to pass the Wall only for the selfish reason that his undead servant isn't able to cross the Nightfort. He has no contact with Jon or other Starks whatsoever, or did I miss something? Fact is, we don't know his agenda. He explained Bran nothing. AT ALL. The Children either. There is still enough space for a dark twist in every direction. But not because Bran is a horrible, evil person, more because he has no other choice. They are pretty much trapped up there, surrounded by winter and zombies. Yeah, I agree that Bran is using Hodor as a replacement for his legs. But still... in this situation... can you really blame him? I just hope Meera will chastise him, when it comes out, I share the common opinion that he treats him sometimes awefully. But at the end of the day, they have more life-threatening problems.

It's kind of obviously implied that Mormont's raven is warged by Bloodraven.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Yay, this topic seems to be going well. Good points all around.

This ^ is probably the best. Humans are just animals. Some may be offended when I said Hodor has pretty much just been a horse, but I don't mean to say he's lower than a human. I just mean to say that's the only purpose in the story he's really served. He doesn't have much else plot-wise. His whole existence was probably made up by GRRM for the sole purpose of getting Bran around after the fall.

Sure, t could be considered 'dehumanizing' to say that about him, but why does that have to be a bad thing? I don't consider animals lower than humans for the most part. The direwolves have shown they're intelligent, more so than other animals so far. So if most here are alright with warging animals, I see no difference with a human. Unless we could just consider all warging bad, but then that pretty much makes all the Stark children bad (save Sansa whose ability seems to be either still dormant or completely cut off, and possibly Robb. Who knows...)

I agree with this. I think the character Hodor was placed in the story for the purpose of Bran to warg. I don't have any problem with Bran warging him and I do not see Bran being or becoming evil because of it. I think that we saw that warging a human can be bad when the warg himself has evil purposes. I know that I read were some man warged another in order to have the dudes wife, and that is evil. Varymar wanted to takeover Clover's life, effectively killing her in order to save himself, evil. Of course. Hodor is going to be afraid because he doesn't understand, but he's pretty much afraid of everything anyway. Who knows, maybe we will find out what Hodor means.

[willy york]

So if most here are alright with warging animals, I see no difference with a human. Unless we could just consider all warging bad, but then that pretty much makes all the Stark children bad (save Sansa whose ability seems to be either still dormant or completely cut off, and possibly Robb. Who knows...)

the animals dont fight or show fear like hodor; at least, its not described that way. i totally agree if they wolves do fight it but the wolves seem to like it they come back after being warged and lick their faces and stuff.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

the animals dont fight or show fear like hodor; at least, its not described that way. i totally agree if they wolves do fight it but the wolves seem to like it they come back after being warged and lick their faces and stuff.

The snowbear that Varamyr warged hated it the most and fought him. The shadowcat didn't like it either. I just read it yesterday. The direwolves were ment for the Stark children which is why they welcome it and the fact that wolves and dogs are the easiest to warg. Warg means wolf.

[danm_999]

Has Bloodraven mentioned anything to him thus far about warging humans?

Not that we've seen, but here's two excerpts from that Bran chapter;

Under the hill, Jojen brooded, Meera fretted, and Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering?

No one must ever know.

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do.

No one ever knew when he was wearing Hodor’s skin. Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter “Hodor” from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him.

Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. “Hodor,” Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.

So it really seems like Bran knows what he's doing is wrong, and just sort of justifies it in that he'll give it back eventually.

[Toth]

It is my belief that Bloodraven arranged for the Stark children to get the direwolves. He probably warged the mother and sent her to a place he knew they would be going. He has also helped Jon by warging Mormont's raven. I'm quite sure he was also the source of some of Jon's prophetic dream when he was ranging north of the Wall.

Ok, I go along with the raven. But still... I can't remember a scene, where the bird actually helped. In the last scene in Dance, he mumbled stuff about Jon and King, probably to get him away from the Watch or as some kind of foreshadowing, what he shall do after the assassination. The word, the raven likes best, is "death". How helpful is that? The raven could as well be an instrument to keep an eye on the movements of the Watch. Or why do you think, the Others knew exactly where the NW was positioned at the Fist? I can't remember that there where any zombie-scouts...

Jons dreams north of the Wall from Bloodraven? I'm not so sure about that. The very first included a tree with the voice of Bran talking to Ghost (open your eye!). A few chapters later Bran expresses his doubts, if Jon had understood his message. So I'm pretty sure that Bran was trying to communicate with him. The dreams? It would be the first time that those are forced into someones head by someone else. Possible, but if Jon is AA-reborn, it could also be some flicker of memory by a former life.

I do not deny that your argumentation could as well be correct. There is enough space for it. But I personally find a good BR and selfless CotF rather boring. Bran would learn to warg everything there is, leans down and enjoys the fight. Where is the drama in that? I know, I missed the point of this thread a bit, but it goes in the same direction: Brans arc darkens a lot, even when warging poor Hodor is only his way to do something against his helplessness. He follows the path of the last greenseer, but does he have a choice? I don't see one. Slipping into Hodor is one way to escape his body and his situation to a certain degree.

[The guy from the Vale]

Reread the chapter where the Wights attack Castle Black in AGoT. It's the raven screaming 'Burn! Burn!' that makes Jon try to fight the wight using a lamp.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I don't think that Haggan is the end all be all of Skinchanger knowledge, those were probably just his personal guidelines.

As far as bran goes though, it's not very good of him to take control of Hodor's body, unless of course it's life or death situations for any of the people he's involved with.

[Ladylance]

I don't think that Haggan is the end all be all of Skinchanger knowledge, those were probably just his personal guidelines.

I agree to a certain extent, clearly other skin changers have different ethics, we were shown this in Varamyr's prologue. However, there's got to be a reason for putting those things in the prologue- I think it's foreshaddowing of sorts that nothing good can come of what Bran's doing, but I could be wrong.

I agree that the "No-one must ever know" is pretty damning for Bran. This suggests he knows that other people will think what he's doing is wrong. If he really didn't know it was wrong, he wouldn't be hiding it from everyone.

None of this makes Bran evil, though. Most other characters in the series have done much worse things with much less justification. I agree the power is hard to resist, especially in his situation. Just because we can empathise with the situation doesn't meen things will end well for Bran.

[Le Cygne]

There's a reason for the things in the prologue, but there's a reason for other things throughout the books, too. The viewpoint of Haggon may or may not apply to Bran, he's still working things out as they apply to his world. I think he'll figure things out properly, he just needs time.

[jons nissa]

Has Bloodraven mentioned anything to him thus far about warging humans?

um, no. i don't think bloodraven has mentioned anything. so.......by your logic bran should keep up with this even though he knows hodor either fights it or hides from him and even though he feels hodor's fear and tries desperately to hide it from everyone. carry on, bran. i guess.....

[Lion of Judah]

um, no. i don't think bloodraven has mentioned anything. so.......by your logic bran should keep up with this even though he knows hodor either fights it or hides from him and even though he feels hodor's fear and tries desperately to hide it from everyone. carry on, bran. i guess.....

Where did I say Bran should continue warging Hodor? Where?

[jons nissa]

Where did I say Bran should continue warging Hodor? Where?

actually i haven't said you said bran should continue. i said that your asking repeatedly whether bran has been told warging hodor is bad even though he knows it's bad leads to the assumption that he should continue until he's told to stop. if that's the wrong assumption, then i haven't been able to figure out why you keep asking if bloodraven has mentioned warging humans or not when bran knows it's wrong and hides it from everyone.

also, i went back to read over your posts to make sure i am not misquoting you and realized that you stressed bran not being evil or as bad as varamyr. and no, i absolutely do not believe bran's warging is done as a result of evil intent. just no.

but he definitely knows it's wrong because it's hurting hodor and yet that hasn't stopped him from doing it so far. still, i have faith in bran. i think he will stop without being told to but because he's been taught right from wrong. at least i hope he will.

[Dolorous Nedd]

One thing to consider in all of this is what is widely referred to as the age of accountability. That is the age where a person not only knows right and wrong, but can also be counted on to make the right choices based on that knowledge. A very young child can know what is right and wrong, but still make the wrong choice due to the sweet reward offered by that choice. The age where a normal moral person is expected to make the right choices or suffer the consequences is widely thought to be 12 years old. Bran isn't 12 yet.

[jons nissa]

One thing to consider in all of this is what is widely referred to as the age of accountability. That is the age where a person not only knows right and wrong, but can also be counted on to make the right choices based on that knowledge. A very young child can know what is right and wrong, but still make the wrong choice due to the sweet reward offered by that choice. The age where a normal moral person is expected to make the right choices or suffer the consequences is widely thought to be 12 years old. Bran isn't 12 yet.

this is an interesting concept. and ironically most adults do the wrong thing because of that sweet reward.

[Kobayashi Maru]

One thing to consider in all of this is what is widely referred to as the age of accountability. That is the age where a person not only knows right and wrong, but can also be counted on to make the right choices based on that knowledge. A very young child can know what is right and wrong, but still make the wrong choice due to the sweet reward offered by that choice. The age where a normal moral person is expected to make the right choices or suffer the consequences is widely thought to be 12 years old. Bran isn't 12 yet.

I actually read somewhere it only starts at 12 and is process of learning spanning throughout adolescence.It's the last thing we learn-choosing right over wrong in spite of our preferences-. if ever in case of some individuals.