Sansa as 'Lady Iceheart'

[Legitimate Businessman]

Which is really fine- You're entitled to your opinion of course. Other people disagree with that and they are entitled to their opinion as well, especially when yours is not exactly backed up by any evidence in the novels.

It is backed up. You just don't agree with the analysis

I think the problem with Sansa is in all seriousness, there is something about her, maybe her petulence, maybe her vaccuousness in the first few novels that unfortunately overwhelms the opinion of her for the rest of the series. Some people just don't warm to the character.

Most of the points in her defence are valid but at the same time she comes across robotically in her response, in her empathy, not like Catelyn but in that same vein.

I feel like we're waiting for her character to do something very irrational or explode at any stage

[JaegrM]

Sweetrobin is literally pissing in her bed and nuzzling his head in her breasts. The fact that Sansa lets him do that all makes her a saint. Why does one occasion where Sansa is exhausted and can't deal with that make her an ice queen?

And the alternative is...? She literally has to tell him these lies to get him to get up and get cleaned up. The alternative is being locked in the Eyrie to freeze and starve to death. Would you like Sansa more if she just went "screw it, I'll freeze and starve to death rather than tell a harmless lie."

So...what's your point? The fact that she occasionally manipulates him does not cancel out all the good she does for him. He's a bratty child who has no idea what's good for him and can't take care of himself. Sometimes she's forced to manipulate him. Either way, I again don't see why this makes her an ice queen. She has essentially become Sweetrobin's substitute Mommy, a thankless role that not many characters in the book would ever take on imo, especially ones without a whole lot of compassion and sympathy.

And again...The alternative is SR having a shaking spell and falling off his mule on the descent and plummeting to his death. I fail to see what you want Sansa to do here- She's trying to protect SR as best as she can.

Which is really fine- You're entitled to your opinion of course. Other people disagree with that and they are entitled to their opinion as well, especially when yours is not exactly backed up by any evidence in the novels.

I disagree with this as well...LF is a heinous human being who is directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of both Ned and Cat. If Sansa was to ever really find out about the role he played in Ned's demise (and she's close already), obviously she'd want revenge/justice for it. But yes, I probably would agree that I don't see this in Sansa's future anyway.

If I'm out of line when I say this I apologize, but I get the impression you're a big Sansa fan, and have a hard time seeing the (de)evoltion of her character.

It seems to be that she's always had the POTENTIAL to be Lady Iceheart (watching sir hugh bleed out and thinking 'no biggie')

You realize you're justifying Sansa's manipulation of people for her own benefeit.

On top of that, the part about killing LF, which you did say you don't see happening still sounds like something you'd find acceptable for her to do.

If I misunderstood your feelings about her murdering littlefinger than again I apologize for misreading your tone.

And I believe she began locking SR out every night, unless...Brune(?) forgot to get the door.

[Jslay427]

Sansas personality has changed more than any Stark chilld from AGOT, and I hope this continues.

[jon stark I]

If I'm out of line when I say this I apologize, but I get the impression you're a big Sansa fan, and have a hard time seeing the (de)evoltion of her character.

It seems to be that she's always had the POTENTIAL to be Lady Iceheart (watching sir hugh bleed out and thinking 'no biggie')

You realize you're justifying Sansa's manipulation of people for her own benefeit.

On top of that, the part about killing LF, which you did say you don't see happening still sounds like something you'd find acceptable for her to do.

If I misunderstood your feelings about her murdering littlefinger than again I apologize for misreading your tone.

And I believe she began locking SR out every night, unless...Brune(?) forgot to get the door.

Are you serious?SR is an ill-minded child he nuzzles her breasts and then some...

I don't like Sansa really but those points you made are all wrong..She does what every parent does when they face a stubborn child they tell a lie like "okey take your medicine then we will buy you ice cream " this is basic parenting :cool4:

She has to obey LFs orders or else she is a fresh corpse.To survive she has to do what LF wants.

And what is so disturbing about her killing LF?The man killed her father and started this war which cost her whole her family , LF and Lysa killed Jon Aryyn and they blamed Lannisters which caused Ned to accept being Hand of the King and LF made her marry Tyrion.If one of this things happened to me i would be a Ramsay for the person who did that to me.

Killing LF is not becoming coldhearted its like Robb killing Tywin if that happened would you call Robb as a cold person?

[Legitimate Businessman]

Are you serious?SR is an ill-minded child he nuzzles her breasts and then some...

I don't like Sansa really but those points you made are all wrong..She does what every parent does when they face a stubborn child they tell a lie like "okey take your medicine then we will buy you ice cream " this is basic parenting :cool4:

She has to obey LFs orders or else she is a fresh corpse.To survive she has to do what LF wants.

And what is so disturbing about her killing LF?The man killed her father and started this war which cost her whole her family , LF and Lysa killed Jon Aryyn and they blamed Lannisters which caused Ned to accept being Hand of the King and LF made her marry Tyrion.If one of this things happened to me i would be a Ramsay for the person who did that to me.

Killing LF is not becoming coldhearted its like Robb killing Tywin if that happened would you call Robb as a cold person?

But you can't hold somewhat up on a pedastle if they are a killer too. Murder is murder. In prose, it is better to die a martyr. The character is revered more. Ned would be the closest to this, although he did kill a deserter of the Night's Watch

With regard to LF, if she is not cold blooded or dismissive then she is an absolute imbecile. She should realise she is central to his plan by now, and he needs her just as much as she needs him.

[JaegrM]

Are you serious?SR is an ill-minded child he nuzzles her breasts and then some...

I don't like Sansa really but those points you made are all wrong..She does what every parent does when they face a stubborn child they tell a lie like "okey take your medicine then we will buy you ice cream " this is basic parenting :cool4:

She has to obey LFs orders or else she is a fresh corpse.To survive she has to do what LF wants.

And what is so disturbing about her killing LF?The man killed her father and started this war which cost her whole her family , LF and Lysa killed Jon Aryyn and they blamed Lannisters which caused Ned to accept being Hand of the King and LF made her marry Tyrion.If one of this things happened to me i would be a Ramsay for the person who did that to me.

Killing LF is not becoming coldhearted its like Robb killing Tywin if that happened would you call Robb as a cold person?

But that would be a 180 degree turn for Sansa.

In KL she endured way worse than SR wetting the bed, and she did it with a smile on her face.

She seems like the more likely choice of the Stark girls to recite a hit list every night before she falls asleep, but that's not even an option for her as a character.

I'm not saying Sansa getting vengence is uncalled for, it's just not how Sansa operates.

[Tagganaro]

Which is really fine- You're entitled to your opinion of course. Other people disagree with that and they are entitled to their opinion as well, especially when yours is not exactly backed up by any evidence in the novels.

It is backed up. You just don't agree with the analysis

I think the problem with Sansa is in all seriousness, there is something about her, maybe her petulence, maybe her vaccuousness in the first few novels that unfortunately overwhelms the opinion of her for the rest of the series. Some people just don't warm to the character.

Most of the points in her defence are valid but at the same time she comes across robotically in her response, in her empathy, not like Catelyn but in that same vein.

I feel like we're waiting for her character to do something very irrational or explode at any stage

Where it is it backed up? Have you been reading the posts refuting most of the evidence? If so, then tell me how it is backed up and why and with what evidence from the novels. As I said, I'm not seeing it. And the bolded portion is basically you just flat out saying you have no interest in Sansa (you or others?) based on her personality in AGOT. That doesn't really have much to do with what we're discussing now.

And as well, where is Cat "robotic"? I don't quite get what you're saying there.

If I'm out of line when I say this I apologize, but I get the impression you're a big Sansa fan, and have a hard time seeing the (de)evoltion of her character.

It seems to be that she's always had the POTENTIAL to be Lady Iceheart (watching sir hugh bleed out and thinking 'no biggie')

And likewise I will apologize as well if I'm out of line, but I get the impression you're not a Sansa fan at all. She really doesn't watch Sir Hugh bleed out and think 'no biggie'. She thinks about how it's sad that he's dead, and that she should be and wants to cry but believes all her tears have been spent on Lady. She also spends the paragraph beforehand thinking approvingly of what she was taught by Septa Mordane to always keep her composure like a noble lady should during the tourney. So clearly that concerns her as well. There's also probably 100 other plus people at the tourney who don't cry over Sir Hugh's death. Are they all ice queens as well?

You realize you're justifying Sansa's manipulation of people for her own benefeit.

You realize you're saying Sansa should not play the game and probably die just out of fear of using "manipulation"? I've also pointed out that several times she "manipulates" SR she's doing it for his own benefit to protect him. Are you just ignoring that?

On top of that, the part about killing LF, which you did say you don't see happening still sounds like something you'd find acceptable for her to do.

If I misunderstood your feelings about her murdering littlefinger than again I apologize for misreading your tone.

Well, like I said, I find LF to be one of the most despicable characters in all of ASOIAF, on the level of Ramsay Snow and others, so I'm not going to shed tears when he dies and will instantly find whoever kills him to be heroic in that instance. That being said, I wouldn't be perfectly fine with Sansa killing him out of revenge, but if it was out of a sense of justice for LF being a sniveling traitor and she was simply carrying out her conception of the Law, or of Justice, I'd certainly be more ok with it.

And I believe she began locking SR out every night, unless...Brune(?) forgot to get the door.

I'm not sure about the details. It's sort of unclear. Either way, are you really arguing that because Sansa doesn't want SR to come into her bed, pee in it, and try nuzzling at her breasts that she's some sort of Ice Queen or cold person? Because I have a hard time finding the logic in that really.

[JaegrM]

Plus I mean how badass would it be for Mommy to be Lady Stoneheart and her daughter be Lady Iceheart?

I debate with myself if that would me Martin-esque.

I think it's primarily wishful thinking for the naming paralleles on my part though.

[Aryus]

But you can't hold somewhat up on a pedastle if they are a killer too. Murder is murder. In prose, it is better to die a martyr. The character is revered more. Ned would be the closest to this, although he did kill a deserter of the Night's Watch

Maybe I interpreted incorrectly, and if I did, sorry about that, but could it be argued then that most characters in this series have the potential to be cold-hearted? Not that I agree with it, but based on what you said.

[Legitimate Businessman]

Maybe I interpreted incorrectly, and if I did, sorry about that, but could it be argued then that most characters in this series have the potential to be cold-hearted? Not that I agree with it, but based on what you said.

I think all characters in the novels are grey. But judging from the comments on the first 2 pages, you would think that the character of Sansa Stark has done no wrong, which is completely incorrect, and actually does disservice to the character

[JaegrM]

Where it is it backed up? Have you been reading the posts refuting most of the evidence? If so, then tell me how it is backed up and why and with what evidence from the novels. As I said, I'm not seeing it. And the bolded portion is basically you just flat out saying you have no interest in Sansa (you or others?) based on her personality in AGOT. That doesn't really have much to do with what we're discussing now.

And as well, where is Cat "robotic"? I don't quite get what you're saying there.

And likewise I will apologize as well if I'm out of line, but I get the impression you're not a Sansa fan at all. She really doesn't watch Sir Hugh bleed out and think 'no biggie'. She thinks about how it's sad that he's dead, and that she should be and wants to cry but believes all her tears have been spent on Lady. She also spends the paragraph beforehand thinking approvingly of what she was taught by Septa Mordane to always keep her composure like a noble lady should during the tourney. So clearly that concerns her as well. There's also probably 100 other plus people at the tourney who don't cry over Sir Hugh's death. Are they all ice queens as well?

You realize you're saying Sansa should not play the game and probably die just out of fear of using "manipulation"? I've also pointed out that several times she "manipulates" SR she's doing it for his own benefit to protect him. Are you just ignoring that?

Well, like I said, I find LF to be one of the most despicable characters in all of ASOIAF, on the level of Ramsay Snow and others, so I'm not going to shed tears when he dies and will instantly find whoever kills him to be heroic in that instance. That being said, I wouldn't be perfectly fine with Sansa killing him out of revenge, but if it was out of a sense of justice for LF being a sniveling traitor and she was simply carrying out her conception of the Law, or of Justice, I'd certainly be more ok with it.

I'm not sure about the details. It's sort of unclear. Either way, are you really arguing that because Sansa doesn't want SR to come into her bed, pee in it, and try nuzzling at her breasts that she's some sort of Ice Queen or cold person? Because I have a hard time finding the logic in that really.

I will fully admit, I got sidetracked by some people bringing up retroactive information and thought it may apply as foreshadowing, but that line of reasoning went too far and came quite close to straying off topic.

My point about manipulating SR and locking him out (I'm not digging through the book to find passages) is it seems like it's coming easier and easier to her, even when they're descending the Ryrie, without even dwelling on it, she knew how to play him like a fiddle (she was scared, and needed his bravery to protect her)

IMO Old Sansa didn't play like that.

And I BELIEVE some of her manipulation in getting SR down, was about her own safety.

I truly have nothing against Sansa (except for when she ratted out Ned to Cersei, but she was a Naive young girl)

I also find some of the later stuff in the Vale to make me indifferent.

I think if she did become 'Lady Iceheart it could reinvigorate her character and make her even more endering, even if she got the Darth Vader moment of redemption near the end of her arc.....

Kind of Rambling now.

Love is dead to her, no one will love her, they'll only love winterfell, stories and songs are BS, and they're what defined her character.

[Legitimate Businessman]

Where it is it backed up? Have you been reading the posts refuting most of the evidence? If so, then tell me how it is backed up and why and with what evidence from the novels. As I said, I'm not seeing it. And the bolded portion is basically you just flat out saying you have no interest in Sansa (you or others?) based on her personality in AGOT. That doesn't really have much to do with what we're discussing now.

The OP gave countless examples, of which people either dismissed, refuted or rationalised to prove that Sansa had it tough. He didn't provide page or chapter numbers, so what?

I have also never said that I don't care about Sansa, that would imply apathy. I dislike her character but that doesn't mean I have no interest; I think she is on the verge of progression, I think in the same way possibly as Catelyn but not as extreme. The character will no doubt reach a breaking point

[Aryus]

I think all characters in the novels are grey. But judging from the comments on the first 2 pages, you would think that the character of Sansa Stark has done no wrong, which is completely incorrect, and actually does disservice to the character

True, she has done wrong, and it'd be silly to say she's the purest thing out there, though relative to most other characters, I'd say she's closer to being purer than others. That being said, most of her offensives just don't do it much (in my opinion of course) to go on and say she's got potential to be Lady IceHeart, as interesting as an idea it is. I don't really see her being disillusioned with songs, knights, and true love as becoming colder but more like "Hey, get your head out of the clouds before you lose it" i.e. if you don't wise up a little, you'll die. I feel like if someone gave her hope of love/home/the songs/etc. she'd fall right back into her old ways (though not as childishly as before). But how she deals with LF could change a lot of things, maybe.

[Tagganaro]

My point about manipulating SR and locking him out (I'm not digging through the book to find passages) is it seems like it's coming easier and easier to her, even when they're descending the Ryrie, without even dwelling on it, she knew how to play him like a fiddle (she was scared, and needed his bravery to protect her)

IMO Old Sansa didn't play like that.

And I BELIEVE some of her manipulation in getting SR down, was about her own safety.

I'm still really failing to see your point here. I get that you are arguing that manipulation seems to come easier and easier to her, which I can agree with and get behind. But I'm not seeing why that remotely equates to her becoming an ice queen. She doesn't manipulate for fun, and the descent down the Eyrie is a dangerous life-threatening situation for both her and SR. She needs to get SR down through the descent or they will be both be stuck above in the Eyrie to starve and eventually die. She needs to have him take the sweet sleep because if he has a shaking spell during the descent, he will die because of it. In both instances she is protecting SR's life, along with her own.

I think if she did become 'Lady Iceheart it could reinvigorate her character and make her even more endering, even if she got the Darth Vader moment of redemption near the end of her arc.....

Kind of Rambling now.

Love is dead to her, no one will love her, they'll only love winterfell, stories and songs are BS, and they're what defined her character.

Well yeah, again you're obviously entitled to your opinion and I can't argue with your subjective desire here to see that making her a more interesting character. I'm simply pointing out the lack of evidence of such a progression imo.

The OP gave countless examples, of which people either dismissed, refuted or rationalised to prove that Sansa had it tough. He didn't provide page or chapter numbers, so what?

What? So you're admitting that the examples were dismissed, refuted, or rationalized? So what are you even arguing about? That was my point...Most of the evidence for such a character progression has been dismissed, refuted, or rationalized.

I have also never said that I don't care about Sansa, that would imply apathy. I dislike her character but that doesn't mean I have no interest; I think she is on the verge of progression, I think in the same way possibly as Catelyn but not as extreme. The character will no doubt reach a breaking point

Ok cool. That has nothing to really do with anything though, in which I was discussing the lack of evidence for such a progression, which you apparently agree with anyway. So what are you arguing?

[Little Bird of Varys]

Interesting to recall that Sansa thought about making people love she. Cersei said that the best for a Queen, is be dreaded. Will she change this view along with all the rest?

Lady Iceheart with her ​​beautiful red hair. :drool:

[JaegrM]

Interesting to recall that Sansa thought about making people love she. Cersei said that the best for a Queen, is be dreaded. Will she change this view along with all the rest?

Lady Iceheart with her ​​beautiful red hair. :drool:

Hah, I can't tell what stance you're taking in this discussion

[JaegrM]

I'm still really failing to see your point here. I get that you are arguing that manipulation seems to come easier and easier to her, which I can agree with and get behind. But I'm not seeing why that remotely equates to her becoming an ice queen. She doesn't manipulate for fun, and the descent down the Eyrie is a dangerous life-threatening situation for both her and SR. She needs to get SR down through the descent or they will be both be stuck above in the Eyrie to starve and eventually die. She needs to have him take the sweet sleep because if he has a shaking spell during the descent, he will die because of it. In both instances she is protecting SR's life, along with her own.

Well yeah, again you're obviously entitled to your opinion and I can't argue with your subjective desire here to see that making her a more interesting character. I'm simply pointing out the lack of evidence of such a progression imo.

What? So you're admitting that the examples were dismissed, refuted, or rationalized? So what are you even arguing about? That was my point...Most of the evidence for such a character progression has been dismissed, refuted, or rationalized.

Ok cool. That has nothing to really do with anything though, in which I was discussing the lack of evidence for such a progression, which you apparently agree with anyway. So what are you arguing?

I believe he's saying it doesn't really matter how valid my points are, people will just explain them away regardless.

(I don't BELIEVE he's directing it specifically at you)

I have been wanting to ask, are you a big Sansa fan?

[Where Went Whent]

Sansa is more Lady MockingBird than IceHeart. just saying.

[JaegrM]

Sansa is more Lady MockingBird than IceHeart. just saying.

Could you elaborate?

Because if you mean She's LF's woman, that seems like a synonym

[Where Went Whent]

Could you elaborate?

Because if you mean She's LF's woman, that seems like a synonym

Well its rather self explanatory. 1) Mockingbirds are exceptionally smart, almost to a frightening point. Sansa's previous image used to be that of a child lost in her head (in other words stupid and naive). She is growing smarter daily and beginning to appreciate and learn from her harsh surroundings, and the Game.

2,) Lady Sansa is presently being tutored by the king of mockingbirds.

3.) This is rather weak but here goes: The hound does call her a bird. however the only bird she can truly be compared to is a mockingBird, well and penguins too, but just because she was one 'flightless' doesn't mean calling her fat too. Lol