Sansa as 'Lady Iceheart'

[Ice Turtle]

I'm not so sure this is a Southern thing though. There are plenty of non-manipulative and honourable Southern Houses, but Court is different. There we see two of the biggest scheming families there are, namely the Lannisters and the Tyrells. Neither I think represent a Southern ideal.

Damn me and probably commas, I don't think that manipulation is a Southern thing. Just something Sansa and Cat have in common.

To be fair to both those threads, the Arya one is just in book two, and the mentions of Sansa will decrease now that their storylines are seperate. Similarly, Tyrion has just married Sansa in the Tyrion re-read, so there is likely to be more mentions at present.

When it comes to Arya reread their storyline are already separate. So I remain skeptical.

[wildlingrose]

Maybe, but I have often feeling that things are discussed more from Sansa's perspective and how they influence her storyline instead of really focusing on Tyrion, it's probably not a problem of posts with analysis' but too big amount of answering posts are often rather focused on Sansa.

Maybe, but I often see that people feel that Sansa "owed" Tyrion something in that marriage, and that Sansa somehow disrespected Tyrion by not sleeping with him on their wedding night, or kneeling for the cloak exchange. So, naturally, I think more Sansa-centric threads would pop up in light of many people making it All About Tyrion. (Spend any amount of time on tumblr and you'll see this.) Also, recall that Sansa was in very grave danger during their marriage - danger of being raped and impregnated and losing everything, or killed once she produced a son. She was also 12/13. It was definitely no picnic for Tyrion, but Sansa was really the one that could have lost all because of that match, whereas Tyrion could have gained (i.e., and heir and Winterfell).

[Mladen]

Maybe, but I have often feeling that things are discussed more from Sansa's perspective and how they influence her storyline instead of really focusing on Tyrion, it's probably not a problem of posts with analysis' but too big amount of answering posts are often rather focused on Sansa.

Because, it`s more objective to watch them from Sansa`s POV. I like Tyrion, but in this subplot, he could only prosper, Sansa is the one losing everything. And I think that his pride suffered far less than Sansa`s heart during their marriage.

[brashcandy]

I have no problem when she is the center of Sansa threads, but I think that namely in Arya and Tyrion rereads she is given way too much of attention..

Most of the times Sansa is brought up in the Arya reread it's in an attempt to understand Arya better, or to note some interesting parallels. Here's the thing: when you're able to appreciate both sisters, and you aren't part of the "Sansa hating" Arya brigade, you don't actually sit stewing when she's referenced as part of a larger observation. But I understand perfectly that YMMV.

[ARYa_Nym]

When it comes to Arya reread their storyline are already separate. So I remain skeptical.

Again, IA. It's not even just with Sansa but some comments can't speak on Arya by herself.

I also would have preferred a more concise analysis of the characters she interacts with then for example pages and pages about Ned's parenting.

One example could have been who was Queen Nymeria, what did she do, and what about her could have appealed to Arya. Or spending more time on her interaction with Nymeria. Chronological order was used as an excuse but Arya only gets to interact with her in person in the beginning.

Of course you're not allowed to complain and this is OT so I'll bequiet now.

[brashcandy]

The last time I checked no one has a monopoly on rereads in this forum. Don't like how one is going, start one yourself! Sour grapes can be pretty bitter.

[butterbumps!]

Most of the times Sansa is brought up in the Arya reread it's in an attempt to understand Arya better, or to note some interesting parallels. Here's the thing: when you're able to appreciate both sisters, and you aren't part of the "Sansa hating" Arya brigade, you don't actually sit stewing when she's referenced as part of a larger observation. But I understand perfectly that YMMV.

There's aspects about both characters that I understand better than, or are more apparent to me, than others. The parallels help me bridge the gap, and to look at their actions from different angles. I know in LtL Ned and Mance came up as reference points to help understand some of Jon's actions better, or bring up new insights about the other two characters. Especially in light of some of the comparisons I've seen elsewhere between Arya and Sansa, I actually think keeping Sansa in mind during an Arya reread is a really productive way to locate these differences and similarities more precisely to avoid the "same old" elsewhere.

side note: I lent my copy of aCoK, so I've been remiss about writing in there lately-- sorry!

[brashcandy]

There's aspects about both characters that I understand better than, or are more apparent to me, than others. The parallels help me bridge the gap, and to look at their actions from different angles. I know in LtL Ned and Mance came up as reference points to help understand some of Jon's actions better, or bring up new insights about the other two characters. Especially in light of some of the comparisons I've seen elsewhere between Arya and Sansa, I actually think keeping Sansa in mind during an Arya reread is a really productive way to locate these differences and similarities more precisely to avoid the "same old" elsewhere.

Precisely, and it's one of the reasons we (Rapsie, Lyanna and I) were so happy we could do an Arya re-read, because of the Sansa insight we had gained. But this kind of perspective can't be appreciated from those who simply despise Sansa. Ah well.

side note: I lent my copy of aCoK, so I've been remiss about writing in there lately-- sorry!

Yes, you've been missed :)

[Dr. Pepper]

When it comes to Arya reread their storyline are already separate. So I remain skeptical.

They are physically separated, but that does not mean that their storyline has zero connection. Character analysis builds as you go along. That means that you remember what happened before, what influences were there in the beginning. It becomes just a "Where's waldo" thread if it's only a summary of what's happening at a specific moment.

Again, IA. It's not even just with Sansa but some comments can't speak on Arya by herself.

I also would have preferred a more concise analysis of the characters she interacts with then for example pages and pages about Ned's parenting.

One example could have been who was Queen Nymeria, what did she do, and what about her could have appealed to Arya. Or spending more time on her interaction with Nymeria. Chronological order was used as an excuse but Arya only gets to interact with her in person in the beginning.

Of course you're not allowed to complain and this is OT so I'll bequiet now.

Well, you are allowed to make comments, but irrational complaining is frowned upon. I've not seen any rules in the reread threads that says discussion should only be about what's mentioned in one of the leaders' essays. If you think Queen Nymeria is relevant and can be used to inform the analysis, then I can't see a reason why you don't bring it up in a calm, rational way. Of course, flaming the thread or posters isn't going to help.

[Mladen]

Precisely, and it's one of the reasons we (Rapsie, Lyanna and I) were so happy we could do an Arya re-read, because of the Sansa insight we had gained. But this kind of perspective can't be appreciated from those who simply despise Sansa. Ah well.

@brash, You`re completely right. When you see Arya`s actions and read her POV, you have also a new insight on Sansa`s character. Differences between them are so complementary. Who is more Stark, and who is more Tully? For me, it`s a little bit uncertain whether each one of them is 100 % Stark or Tully. And guys, more reading, less judging...

P.S. I love Arya re-read project. Soon will join you with my insight. Just to read it all

[1234567]

I also would have preferred a more concise analysis of the characters she interacts with then for example pages and pages about Ned's parenting.

The why don't you bring up these points? It would be really interesting.

As for Ned's parenting, that was great to discuss because it gave a better understanding to Arya's behaviour and also how she felt about her place in her family.

One example could have been who was Queen Nymeria, what did she do, and what about her could have appealed to Arya. Or spending more time on her interaction with Nymeria. Chronological order was used as an excuse but Arya only gets to interact with her in person in the beginning.

It's not an excuse. The re-read does go through the chapters chronologically. Occasionally future chapters are referenced and links, continuing foreshadowing etc are highlighted. Your point above is a tread topic all on its own and a very good one. However it is also one that would incorporate talking about Dorne and Arya in Braavos, which we have not reached yet in the re-read. When the re-read is finished and the re-thinking Arya threads start, with essays and comparisons done by a far wider variety of posters it will be a topic and a very large one, but with the re-read, we are trying to walk before we run.

It can be frustrating, but we did do the same thing in the Sansa re-read and that methedology has resulted in amazing re-thinking threads, where we have compared all the female relations ships to Sansa at one at a time, then the male one, then myths and how tropes fit into the story etc. This will happen with Arya too, but first we do have to complete the re-read, which will take months.

Personally the re-read has already given me a more interesting insight into her character and some potential topics for the re-thinking Arya threads that will start after the re-read:

Edit: For example "Gender and Duality", especially as we see despite the presumed tomboy role, Arya repeatedly identifies herself as a girl.

Also the significance of Ruins in the development of her character arc: we have Harrenhal obviously, but then we also have the burnt out church, the ex-children of the forest cave where the band of brothers hide, the Saltpans etc. The symbolism and connection to the role ruins play in other characters' arc would also be interesting to compare at this point, especially Tyrion's and Dany's experiences. But this is all for after the re-read, when we have a better understanding of the whole of her chapters.

[Ice Turtle]

The last time I checked no one has a monopoly on rereads in this forum. Don't like how one is going, start one yourself! Sour grapes can be pretty bitter.

Why should I start a reread just because I don't like the one that is being done? Why shouldn't I be allowed to criticize existing one? The forum is public.

I actually think keeping Sansa in mind during an Arya reread is a really productive way to locate these differences and similarities more precisely to avoid the "same old" elsewhere.

I very strongly disagree with this, if you are focusing on Sansa or any other small group of characters specifically that it's just doing Sansa reread again.

[Little Wing]

Why is every criticism of Sansa viewed as "Sansa hate"?

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, you are allowed to make comments, but irrational complaining is frowned upon. I've not seen any rules in the reread threads that says discussion should only be about what's mentioned in one of the leaders' essays. If you think Queen Nymeria is relevant and can be used to inform the analysis, then I can't see a reason why you don't bring it up in a calm, rational way. Of course, flaming the thread or posters isn't going to help.

A mod said no complaints and deleted the posts.

I've put certain posters on ignore now and it's much better because it avoids the same arguments.

[Dr. Pepper]

A mod said no complaints and deleted the posts.

I've put certain posters on ignore now and it's much better because it avoids the same arguments.

There are ways to complain that are productive, and ways to complain that are useless. Saying a thread series is going to suck and calling out specific posters for their participation...pretty useless. Saying you disagree with a specific point and explaining way and/or offering a different angle with analysis is productive.

But like brash said, there's no monopoly on rereads. You can always do your own. I just think bringing your own ideas and analysis to the current reread is more useful if you are truly interested in your ideas meeting greater acceptance.

[butterbumps!]

I very strongly disagree with this, if you are focusing on Sansa or any other small group of characters specifically that it's just doing Sansa reread again.

I actually really enjoy reading your posts in the Arya thread; you don't speak much to the parallels between the two girls, and I think there's a place in a reread thread for both the very "Arya-centric" and others that approach it more comparatively. I think both approaches add something to Arya's overall character analysis, and your posts are always a good read.

It might be the way I think, but speaking personally, it's much easier for me to observe and articulate something when I'm looking at two things side by side. For some aspects of a reread there is no need for this, but at least for me, I do find it really helpful. Even in the PtP threads, analysis has expanded well beyond Sansa to other characters and archetypes in order to add greater understanding to Sansa's character. I think it helps put things into greater relief to this end, but that may be a personal preference for me.

I've been following along with the Arya thread, and it never struck me that it was an "Arya-Sansa" reread or anything. I mean, it does truly have a focus on Arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

There are ways to complain that are productive, and ways to complain that are useless. Saying a thread series is going to suck and calling out specific posters for their participation...pretty useless. Saying you disagree with a specific point and explaining way and/or offering a different angle with analysis is productive.

But like brash said, there's no monopoly on rereads. You can always do your own. I just think bringing your own ideas and analysis to the current reread is more useful if you are truly interested in your ideas meeting greater acceptance.

For that specific thread it's not allowed. The next complaint leads to a ban.

There are currently and were other rereads that I participated in as well as Arya threads.

[Greengrace]

Imagine if Sansa wargs with Lady Stoneheart just a thought would be pretty badass. It seems similar to Bran and Hudor, stoneheart is not the same cat she once was and doesn't have political savvy or emotions Sansa have but she has all the man power.

[Dr. Pepper]

For that specific thread it's not allowed. The next complaint leads to a ban.

There are currently and were other rereads that I participated in as well as Arya threads.

I obviously don't know exactly what warning the mods gave you specifically, but the warning in the reread thread was geared towards the ad hom attacks on the OPs and other participants in the thread and that doing so would lead to suspension, not a ban. The warning about complaints doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to disagree, offer suggestions or write your own analysis about specific sections.

The relationship between the OPs and participants in a reread thread isn't an unequal teacher-student one. The OPs are merely the organizers and facilitators of a rather large group project. They don't claim to know more or better than other participants and they don't claim an ability to accurately interpret and connect every single detail within the chapters they are reviewing. It's a public reread, a group project and all are invited so long as they follow the two basic rules of not getting too far ahead and using textual evidence to back up their points. The OPs have stated that they welcome all views...so long as there is no ad homming going on.

[Theda Baratheon]

Am I the only one that thinks it would be pretty badass if comparable to Uncat/ Lady Stoneheart

She became Lady IceHeart.

Her heart is "freezing over" She seems to be getting colder and detached from her feelings.

A wicked, cold, Queen of the North.

Because I think it'd be cool if not ALL of the Starks were automatically the "good guys"

I have to go to work, so I'll elaborate later, if this gets any kind of attention.

I really, really don't like the idea of Sansa becoming a wicked Queen of the North; however that's not to say I don't appreciate this as a thoery! It's certainly very interesting to think about. But what makes Sansa so special in my eyes is that she is almost, but not quite, the standard princess fantasy character however; she is broken. This is what makes her one of my favourite characters and one of the most tragic. Her heart isn't freezing over to me, it's just breaking, piece by piece and then she rebuilds it ''My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel' and I think if she were to just become a wicked Queen it would make her character quite one-dimensional and take away from the heart-breaking tragedy that this is a young girl who once had dreams of being a Princess/Queen and has become associated with the ''real world'' however, saying that I can see this theory happening, it's not something I struggle with imagining, I just think it would make me incredibly sad!

Also, the Starks are definitely shaping up to be a lot more than the standard ''good guys''. As many people in the thread have already mentioned, Bran is warging into a human skin (Hodor) which is incredibly immoral, we have Lady Stoneheart -a revenge driven demonic type character- and not to mention Arya, who is training to becoming an assasin! And who, in my opinion, is developing into a psychopath.