Sansa as 'Lady Iceheart'

[TNine]

Sansa as the worst Stark? That's laughable.

Sansa's biggest flaw is that she is way too willing to see the good in people. She tries to put a good spin on Joff, a good spin on Cersei, a good spin on Dontos, a good spin on LF, a good spin on Marge, etc. She puts too much trust in them, and wants them to protect her as good people. And time and time again, it fails--though sometimes it succeeds, as with Dontos or Sandor.

Despite everything she's gone through, one of the worst experiences any character has to have at a very vulnerable age, she still maintains this bright outlook on the world, trying to get away from the darkness that envelopes her rather than letting herself be consumed by it. She tries to cope with the situations she's in through disillusionment, but can rarely act out of spite or anger, despite her having plenty to give her spite and anger.

Not that she has to be a good person to be the kindest Stark--her siblings are all going off the deep end. Jon is alright, he's an oathbreaker but at least he's steered by his moral compass. Bran mindrapes Hodor for fun. Rickon is feral. And Sansa has a long way to go before she's colder than Arya "that dead person's blood is awfully inconvenient" Stark.

[Legitimate Businessman]

Sansa as the worst Stark? That's laughable.

Sansa's biggest flaw is that she is way too willing to see the good in people. She tries to put a good spin on Joff, a good spin on Cersei, a good spin on Dontos, a good spin on LF, a good spin on Marge, etc. She puts too much trust in them, and wants them to protect her as good people. And time and time again, it fails--though sometimes it succeeds, as with Dontos or Sandor.

Despite everything she's gone through, one of the worst experiences any character has to have at a very vulnerable age, she still maintains this bright outlook on the world, trying to get away from the darkness that envelopes her rather than letting herself be consumed by it. She tries to cope with the situations she's in through disillusionment, but can rarely act out of spite or anger, despite her having plenty to give her spite and anger.

Not that she has to be a good person to be the kindest Stark--her siblings are all going off the deep end. Jon is alright, he's an oathbreaker but at least he's steered by his moral compass. Bran mindrapes Hodor for fun. Rickon is feral. And Sansa has a long way to go before she's colder than Arya "that dead person's blood is awfully inconvenient" Stark.

Arya is far more loyal and honourable than Sansa. The whole defence of Joff was only done to fulfil an end, which was Sansa wanting to become Queen. She loved him yes but the love for him was because of his position of power not his personality

[JaegrM]

Sansa as the worst Stark? That's laughable.

Sansa's biggest flaw is that she is way too willing to see the good in people. She tries to put a good spin on Joff, a good spin on Cersei, a good spin on Dontos, a good spin on LF, a good spin on Marge, etc. She puts too much trust in them, and wants them to protect her as good people. And time and time again, it fails--though sometimes it succeeds, as with Dontos or Sandor.

Despite everything she's gone through, one of the worst experiences any character has to have at a very vulnerable age, she still maintains this bright outlook on the world, trying to get away from the darkness that envelopes her rather than letting herself be consumed by it. She tries to cope with the situations she's in through disillusionment, but can rarely act out of spite or anger, despite her having plenty to give her spite and anger.

Not that she has to be a good person to be the kindest Stark--her siblings are all going off the deep end. Jon is alright, he's an oathbreaker but at least he's steered by his moral compass. Bran mindrapes Hodor for fun. Rickon is feral. And Sansa has a long way to go before she's colder than Arya "that dead person's blood is awfully inconvenient" Stark.

That's true... in the first book.

She doesn't trust anyone now,

Jon does what he thinks is right.

Bran is a young child and it seems like he never got taught the same lessons as Varamyr about not warging people and always tries to console him while he does it. Likewise no one ever told him not to eat of human flesh while warged.

Arya is lost and is going down a dark path, but one she thinks is righteous.

Rickon is a depressed young child who feels abandoned by everyone, and may as well be going through the terrible twos.

Robb followed his heart.

I'm not saying Sansa is the 'Worst' Stark.

I'm saying it seems to me that she's the one most likely to travel down the dark side, more or less willingly, after the circumstances she's been forced into.

And she gave up on seeing the good in LF, When he plays the part of Petyr he's a nice guy but she's come to be convinced that Petyr is LF's 'mask'

[Aryus]

How is Arya more honorable? I can kind of see loyalty to some degree, but how is she honorable?

[JaegrM]

How is Arya more honorable? I can kind of see loyalty to some degree, but how is she honorable?

honor

noun

:

acting in accord with

"]divine

or

"]moral

law

:

free from guilt or sin

2

a

:

morally

right

or

justifiable

<a

righteous

decision>

b

:

arising from an outraged sense of justice or

morality

<

righteous

indignation>

[Aryus]

I know what the definition of honorable means...I'll rephrase and ask for specific instances where Arya is deemed honorable?

[Tagganaro]

I believe he's saying it doesn't really matter how valid my points are, people will just explain them away regardless.

(I don't BELIEVE he's directing it specifically at you)

Ok haha. Don't really understand what he's trying to say- If that's what it is, then he should try and refute specific examples of people "rationalizing" them away rather than making a broad generalized statement.

I have been wanting to ask, are you a big Sansa fan?

I don't know quite how to answer that. She's one of my favorite characters (not my favorite though) if that's what you're asking, but I don't think it's really that relevant. I'm guessing you are not a Sansa fan at all right?

[Legitimate Businessman]

How is Arya more honorable? I can kind of see loyalty to some degree, but how is she honorable?

Arya acts, she follows through. Actions not words. Much like her father, the punishment should fit the crime, and she should be the one to deliver the sentence if she believes the person is guilty.

Sansa sulks and does nothing

Arya uses instinct to improve her cause, Sansa perpetually feels sorry for herself.

[JaegrM]

I know what the definition of honorable means...I'll rephrase and ask for specific instances where Arya is deemed honorable?

The definition of honor under 2 (2

a

:

morally

right

or

justifiable

<a

righteous

decision>

b

:

arising from an outraged sense of justice or

morality

<

righteous

indignation>)

Practically defines everything Arya does.

Ok haha. Don't really understand what he's trying to say- If that's what it is, then he should try and refute specific examples of people "rationalizing" them away rather than making a broad generalized statement.

I don't know quite how to answer that. She's one of my favorite characters (not my favorite though) if that's what you're asking, but I don't think it's really that relevant. I'm guessing you are not a Sansa fan at all right?

I have nothing against Sansa...

In the later books, it does kind of irk me that she's resigned herself to being a pawn of LFs, and despite some people saying she's ignorant of that fact, I think she's accepted it as her lot in life, adding to the 'Iceheart' theory I've been toying with

[JaegrM]

The definition of honor under 2 (2

a

:

morally

right

(

Doesn't leave friends behind) (tries to rescue those she cares about, etc.)

or

justifiable

<a

righteous

decision>

( EVERYONE on her list is justified)

b

:

arising from an outraged sense of justice or

morality

<

righteous

indignation>)

Practically defines everything Arya does.

I have nothing against Sansa...

In the later books, it does kind of irk me that she's resigned herself to being a pawn of LFs, and despite some people saying she's ignorant of that fact, I think she's accepted it as her lot in life, adding to the 'Iceheart' theory I've been toying with

[ARYa_Nym]

It's interesting how much arguments changes at the drop of a hat. Before I've read on more than one occasion that Arya is the fiery one while Sansa should be the ice. Now, it's Sansa shouldn't be or isn't the icy one.

As for honor Arya having a strong sense of justice is often a charge I hear from Sansa fans when comparing her to Catelyn.

[Éadaoin]

It's interesting how much arguments changes at the drop of a hat. Before I've read on more than one occasion that Arya is the fiery one while Sansa should be the ice. Now, it's Sansa shouldn't be or isn't the icy one.

As for honor Arya having a strong sense of justice is often a charge I hear from Sansa fans when comparing her to Catelyn.

I do think that if we had to label them, Arya would be the fiery one and Sansa the "colder" one. But that's just my personal interpretation.

I love all three - Sansa, Cat, and Arya (though I came to love Arya and Cat later on).

[ARYa_Nym]

Interestingly enough Catelyn was described as cold by other POVs. Jon compared her to Stannis. Theon thought her worse than Ned.

For a while it was going around the forum that Jamie called her fiery in comparison to Lysa but he was actually talking about Cersei.

[Éadaoin]

Interestingly enough Catelyn was described as cold by other POVs. Jon compared her to Stannis. Theon thought her worse than Ned.

For a while it was going around the forum that Jamie called her fiery in comparison to Lysa but he was actually talking about Cersei.

To me it seemed like Catelyn hid her fire, mostly. It came out in some instances though. Again, that's just my interpretation.

[ARYa_Nym]

To me it seemed like Catelyn hid her fire, mostly. It came out in some instances though. Again, that's just my interpretation.

When I compare either daughter to Catelyn it's often a compliment because I'm such a big Cat fan, really.

I find both her and Ned to be frigid.

Fiery personality seems to be Brandon and I don't think that she would have been a good match for him. It's better that she ended up with Ned.

ETA: Although Brandon may have been colder in his actions. We don't know enough to say.

[Éadaoin]

I find both her and Ned to be frigid.

Oh, I agree that Ned seemed "cold", too. It's easy for me to label Arya as fiery and Ned as cold, but Cat sometimes seems like an odd mix of coldness and fire to me.

Very confusing.

[Daphne23]

Oh, I agree that Ned seemed "cold", too. It's easy for me to label Arya as fiery and Ned as cold, but Cat sometimes seems like an odd mix of coldness and fire to me.

I agree. I think Cat has a naturally fiery personality (see how she reacts and behaves in the scene when she is talking to Jaime, for example) but she has learnt to control this because she realises it is not politically expedient nor socially accepted. What is interesting is that I tend to think of Lady Stoneheart as the expression of the repressed part of Cat's personality, but actually she too mixes fire and ice symbolism; she is quintessentially cold but has been reborn via the Lord of Light. I think what this suggests is that my original summation of LS was too simplistic.

[ARYa_Nym]

Catelyn seems to be most hated for her coldness towards Jon. I remember a poster saying not about Catelyn but her anger isn't fiery it's cold.

Wanting Theon's scraps of skin, failing to warm to Jon but glaring at him and never saying his name is cold (she may have had her reasons but her anger translated to coldness), and almost every time she interacts with someone she comes off frigid to me.

QC1 once made a hilarious post about Ned and Catelyn probably only doing missionary. They're very vanilla and uptight. Jon I don't think was off base in comparing her to Stannis. The idea that opposites attract isn't as true as many have been led to think according to studies. I think they get along well because they were similar in certain respects.

I think her already being an "ice queen" allows her to transition well into Lady Stoneheart. Many LS supporters state that she isn't much different from Catelyn.

[Bayard]

Oh, I agree that Ned seemed "cold", too. It's easy for me to label Arya as fiery and Ned as cold, but Cat sometimes seems like an odd mix of coldness and fire to me.

Very confusing.

What's confusing??? You have to control that fire when you have 5 children :) or they'll walk all over you :). Sure, Arya looks just like Ned, and Sansa like Cat... but actually they are the opposite. Sansa is just like Ned, and Arya like Cat.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Arya acts, she follows through. Actions not words. Much like her father, the punishment should fit the crime, and she should be the one to deliver the sentence if she believes the person is guilty.

Sansa sulks and does nothing

Arya uses instinct to improve her cause, Sansa perpetually feels sorry for herself.

And acting is the definition of honorable? Arya is becoming a Faceless Man, who kill for not-so-justifiable reasons. She has a to-kill-list. Sansa on the other hand, holds no grudges against anyone, except for the Queen at the moment. By the way, Ned is all about thinking, then acting. He doesn't do rash things and doesn't just 'act' right away. Sansa is more like Ned than like Catelyn, and Arya is more like Catelyn than Ned. The Sansa-does-nothing-argument has been here for so many times that I don't even bother to explain that. But if you want Sansa to becoming a cold murderer as well, go ahead, I don't really care.