Sansa as 'Lady Iceheart'

[Legitimate Businessman]

Please give an example of when she's condescending to Jeyne or Jon. I can't think of any.

When did she deliberately lie to get back at Arya?

I'm not sure here if you are just trolling, because none of the above fits in with her arc up to AFFC.

She's dismissive of Jeyne's emotions when they are held in the Red Keep

She constantly corrects Arya by calling Jon a half-brother instead of a brother

She forgets to ask about Arya when the Queen is holding her father hostage. She also forgets to mention it in the

So much so that Robb disinherits her in his will

She lies to Ned about the fight between Arya and Joffrey. Knowing the full truth yet siding with Joffrey. Causing an innocent animal and child to die

[Legitimate Businessman]

Please give an example of when she's condescending to Jeyne or Jon. I can't think of any.

When did she deliberately lie to get back at Arya?

I'm not sure here if you are just trolling, because none of the above fits in with her arc up to AFFC.

I don't see how me providing an alternate perspective on a character is trolling. But if you are the authority in the matter...

[ElizaMartell]

She forgets + ????? = Robb disinherits her

Trolling is not like it used to be. :(

[Legitimate Businessman]

If Sansa had a personal sigil it would be a mocking bird, there is no evil or ill will within her.

That's not true Littlefinger will be soon in her

[Legitimate Businessman]

She forgets + ????? = Robb disinherits her

Trolling is not like it used to be. :(

in the letter to Robb and her family.

Her apparent siding with Joffrey causes Robb to feel betrayed.

I can concede that point as she was under duress

[Kittykatknits]

She's dismissive of Jeyne's emotions when they are held in the Red Keep

She constantly corrects Arya by calling Jon a half-brother instead of a brother

She forgets to ask about Arya when the Queen is holding her father hostage. She also forgets to mention it in the

So much so that Robb disinherits her in his will

She lies to Ned about the fight between Arya and Joffrey. Knowing the full truth yet siding with Joffrey. Causing an innocent animal and child to die

Oh, ok. This makes sense now, you have only read the first book in the series. Therefore you failed to pick up on her defense of Dontos, her helping Lancel, her risking herself twice to support Tommen, taking care of SR, helping Lollys, praying in the sept for everyone she knew and even the soliders, and trying to avert the riot. And hey look - I didn't even mention Sandor Clegane.

[ElizaMartell]

Ignoring Hodor, I don't see Sansa becoming more Icehearted , it seems she has becoming more guarded and less willing to have the dreams she had before she went to KL.

[Éadaoin]

And about who among the Stark sisters has more of the personalit of Cat, is pretty obvious by which goes by the allias of Cat.

Shh. Some people don't like when this is pointed out, for whatever reason. :cool4:

[Legitimate Businessman]

Oh, ok. This makes sense now, you have only read the first book in the series. Therefore you failed to pick up on her defense of Dontos, her helping Lancel, her risking herself twice to support Tommen, taking care of SR, helping Lollys, praying in the sept for everyone she knew and even the soliders, and trying to avert the riot. And hey look - I didn't even mention Sandor Clegane.

Happens too late for my liking. Therefore you cannot call a character entirely good and pure.

An entirely good and pure character is one who never acts in self-interest

Therefore you cannot tell me that Sansa is entirely and utterly good. She transformed bu that does absolve some bad actions.

But I'm over the fem-fest here...

[Silverin]

She's dismissive of Jeyne's emotions when they are held in the Red Keep

She constantly corrects Arya by calling Jon a half-brother instead of a brother

She forgets to ask about Arya when the Queen is holding her father hostage. She also forgets to mention it in the

So much so that Robb disinherits her in his will

She lies to Ned about the fight between Arya and Joffrey. Knowing the full truth yet siding with Joffrey. Causing an innocent animal and child to die

1. I don'T know wether you ever had sisters, but as girl, with female cousins catfights between them are compeletly normal, what I and my cousins sad to each other at that age was 100 times worse than what Sansa and Arya sais to each other, yet we are still best friends. It is called immaturity, pretty common character trait in children.

2. Sansa is dreaming that she will have a daughter like Arya later. Why would she if she absolutly cant stand her?

3. Robb disinherits Sansa because she was forced to a Lannister, to prevent the Lannister claims through her. It had nothing to do wih Arya, what the hell?

4. Arya does call Jon a bastard as well, so does Bran.

in the letter to Robb and her family.

Her apparent siding with Joffrey causes Robb to feel betrayed.

I can concede that point as she was under duress

Robb himself realised that Sansa was forced to write that letter, he never held any grudge against Sansa because of that!

EDIT: Damn I wasted my 800th post at this troll.

[ElizaMartell]

How is a book after an event happened too late? It took Jamie at least 3 books to be likeable but no one stops gushing about his "redemption".

But then dude bro logic is a strange thing....

[Lion of Judah]

That's not true Littlefinger will be soon in her

In her? Sansa is in survival mode, but that doesn't mean that she will forget who she is the daughter of. Littlefinger will never have more influence over Sansa than the memory of her mother and father. LF might be able to manipulate everyone else, but don't for a second believe that because Sansa is playing along LF is 'in her' or owns her. She will be LF's reckoning, you just watch.

[Kittykatknits]

Happens too late for my liking. Therefore you cannot call a character entirely good and pure.

An entirely good and pure character is one who never acts in self-interest

Therefore you cannot tell me that Sansa is entirely and utterly good. She transformed bu that does absolve some bad actions.

But I'm over the fem-fest here...

Classy.

In her? Sansa is in survival mode, but that doesn't mean that she will forget who she is the daughter of. Littlefinger will never have more influence over Sansa than the memory of her mother and father. LF might be able to manipulate everyone else, but don't for a second believe that because Sansa is playing along LF is 'in her' or owns her. She will be LF's reckoning, you just watch.

I had a different interpretation of the comment on LF soon being in her. I elected not to respond to it.

[Lion of Judah]

Classy.

I had a different interpretation of the comment on LF soon being in her. I elected not to respond to it.

LOL, for a moment I thought what you were thinking but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

[1234567]

She's dismissive of Jeyne's emotions when they are held in the Red Keep

Ah, you mean when they are both scared and the entire Stark Household has been murdered? Given the situation that's more than an understandable reaction from an 11 year old.

She constantly corrects Arya by calling Jon a half-brother instead of a brother

She says this once to Arya, in Arya's first chapter. It is also the truth. He is their half brother. Arya, Bran and Robb all refer to Jon as a bastard at some point, and in the later books Arya makes a point in her thoughts that Jon is not a Stark.

She forgets to ask about Arya when the Queen is holding her father hostage. She also forgets to mention it in the

That is bad forgetting to ask about Arya.

So much so that Robb disinherits her in his will

Robb disinherits Arya too. It was the forced marriage to Tyrion that makes Robb disinherit her, to prevent a Lannister takeover. In the same passage Robb said he wanted to cut Tyrion's head off so he could free Sansa from the hideous marriage.

She lies to Ned about the fight between Arya and Joffrey. Knowing the full truth yet siding with Joffrey.

Really? I must have missed the part where she said Arya's lying, and Joff is telling the truth. I could have sworn she said I don't remember. Which is not siding with Joff or Arya. Also if you read that fight scene, while Joff is a dick, Arya does not come out of it squeaky clean. She attacked the Crown Prince to save a peasant. While noble, it was mightily stupid.

Causing an innocent animal and child to die

Mycah was already dead by the time Sansa testified. Cersei had demanded Mycah's death and that Arya be killed or have her hand chopped off three days previously. It is just a miracle that Ned's men found her and not Jaime.

Lady's death had nothing to do with Sansa. Cersei wanted vengeance for her son's injury and a wolf was going to die regardless.

[Legitimate Businessman]

No Knits was right. I'm out

[JaegrM]

She also watched a dude bleed out from a nasty wound at the Hand's tourney and her reaction was just 'meh, I'd probably care, if it was my dad.'

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We know Sansa is becoming disillusioned with her songs, and tales of true knights, and true love.

That was the old Sansa, she now thinks of that younger part of herself as a fool.

Kind of one of my points

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She knows LF is planning to kill SR, but has made no move to warn anyone.

Who would believe her at the Eyrie?

She has learned to trust no one, that's kind of cold of her.

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She allowed LF to kill Lysa and lied to cover for him.

Lysa tried to kill her, and Petyr saved her life.

Old Sansa still would have freaked and told

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She knows that through subterfuge and manipulation she can regain Winterfell and raise her stock.

She doesn't want to be married for Winterfell; she doesn't even want it accept as her home of old.

She's still going along with the plan

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She never wants to marry again at least currently.

She doesn't want be married for claim after being shoved around like a chess piece.

She never wants to be married because love is BS and no one would really love her except for her claim to WF

[Tagganaro]

I don't see it. I think people often confuse Sansa learning to take care of herself and see through the lies of those around her, and her overall general disillusionment with the world of songs and knighthood, etc., with her growing a heart of ice or whatever, but I really just don't see this backed up in the text at all.

She's stuck in the Vale in an entirely dependent role on LF at the moment. She has little and less options in terms of escaping his grasp and going against him at the moment. Obviously she is stuck playing the game to save her own skin. But I've never seen her central core of compassion and sympathy disappear. As was said above, she takes really good care of Sweetrobin, even letting the little brat crawl into her bed and piss in it on occasion. She's basically taken over as his new mommy figure.

As for the other stuff, Marillion attempted murder and rape against Sansa and she still feels bad for the prick when he's stuck in the tower cell. She can't do anything about the "lies" either because if she does she's as good as dead as far as she knows.

We still see Sansa being nice and compassionate to Sweetrobin, Lothor Brune, and she clearly enjoys the company of Myranda Royce and Mya Stone. I really don't see any condescension, coldness, lack of compassion, or any of the traits that would normally be associated with a "Lady Iceheart" or whatever. She's still a young girl stuck in an impossible situation trying to find her way out of it and return home to WF.

[JaegrM]

As was said above, she takes really good care of Sweetrobin, even letting the little brat crawl into her bed and piss in it on occasion. She's basically taken over as his new mommy figure.

Like locking him out of her room when she knows that's the only thing that comforts him at night?

Lying to him/telling him what he wants to hear about the 3837873587 stories she's gonna tell him, and the 83478348 lemon cakes she'll get him?

Taking care of him and manipulating him are not mutually exclusive.

ALSO, The Maester makes it pretty clear that SR has too much sweet sleep given to him already and Sansa pulls the power card telling him to do it anyway.

I'm not a Sansa hater FYI, I do however think I'd like her more as a 'wicked ice queen of the north'

I'm Very surprised how many people disagree with me given how many posts I see about how people want Sansa herself to Kill LF, which imo would be the pinnacle of her emotions freezing over.

[Tagganaro]

Like locking him out of her room when she knows that's the only thing that comforts him at night?

Sweetrobin is literally pissing in her bed and nuzzling his head in her breasts. The fact that Sansa lets him do that all makes her a saint. Why does one occasion where Sansa is exhausted and can't deal with that make her an ice queen?

Lying to him/telling him what he wants to hear about the 3837873587 stories she's gonna tell him, and the 83478348 lemon cakes she'll get him?

And the alternative is...? She literally has to tell him these lies to get him to get up and get cleaned up. The alternative is being locked in the Eyrie to freeze and starve to death. Would you like Sansa more if she just went "screw it, I'll freeze and starve to death rather than tell a harmless lie."

Taking care of him and manipulating him are not mutually exclusive.

So...what's your point? The fact that she occasionally manipulates him does not cancel out all the good she does for him. He's a bratty child who has no idea what's good for him and can't take care of himself. Sometimes she's forced to manipulate him. Either way, I again don't see why this makes her an ice queen. She has essentially become Sweetrobin's substitute Mommy, a thankless role that not many characters in the book would ever take on imo, especially ones without a whole lot of compassion and sympathy.

ALSO, The Maester makes it pretty clear that SR has too much sweet sleep given to him already and Sansa pulls the power card telling him to do it anyway.

And again...The alternative is SR having a shaking spell and falling off his mule on the descent and plummeting to his death. I fail to see what you want Sansa to do here- She's trying to protect SR as best as she can.

I'm not a Sansa hater FYI, I do however think I'd like her more as a 'wicked ice queen of the north'

Which is really fine- You're entitled to your opinion of course. Other people disagree with that and they are entitled to their opinion as well, especially when yours is not exactly backed up by any evidence in the novels.

I'm Very surprised how many people disagree with me given how many posts I see about how people want Sansa herself to Kill LF, which imo would be the pinnacle of her emotions freezing over.

I disagree with this as well...LF is a heinous human being who is directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of both Ned and Cat. If Sansa was to ever really find out about the role he played in Ned's demise (and she's close already), obviously she'd want revenge/justice for it. But yes, I probably would agree that I don't see this in Sansa's future anyway.