Why do people hate Catelyn?

[jons nissa]

Do i need to explain again how we, the reader, are actually supposed to be sympathetic to both characters in that scene again?

:bang:

you shall indeed keep banging your head because no one can dictate or judge how a reader responds to something they read. you can argue that a reader didn't understand a scene and help them comprehend it or explain the elements and symbolism of a scene or how a scene is based on something in an attempt to frame it but you cannot tell a reader how they should react to something they read. that is the beauty of reading: individual connection and interpretation.

[redviper9]

Do i need to explain again how we, the reader, are actually supposed to be sympathetic to both characters in that scene again?

:bang:

Probably because it requires more thought than, "Cat was such a meanie, wah!"

If you are a rabid Catelyn fan or Jon fan that is ok. But what is you basis for saying to others that if they do not like the "it should have been comment" that that is a strawman argument??? Because it is a once only treatment that means that others have to think this is ok?

That is not exactly respecting (but disagreeing) which somebody elses opinion.

What makes it a strawman argument -- and this is coming from someone who is also a fan of both Jon and Cat -- is that some folks rely entirely on this one instance when analyzing these characters and their relationship with each other. Any and all other extenuating factors (Cat's intense grief and physical and mental exhaustion) and other insights we have into the Jon-Cat relationship are completely dismissed to focus exclusively on it.

Going beyond that -- and echoing bumps's latest post -- the assumption is made by many that liking Cat means you automatically approve of her treatment of Jon and what she told him when he said goodbye to Bran. That's not the case. Again, I like Cat, but even I admit that telling Jon it should have been him was harsh.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Well yeah but it was just that - an unnecesseraly harsh comment by a grieving mother. Not enough reason to hate or make general conclusions IMO.

I didn't state that it was a reason to hate or make general conclusions about Catelyn.

[jons nissa]

That accounts for some of it but there are also some interesting people out there who cite things like her treatment of Littlefinger.

I mean, really?

i think this is done by people who can't identify why they dislike her and are creating a situation where there is none. but this is just my personal opinion.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Sorry, ignoring previous posts, very busy, so just answering the original question.

-Why do you assume people hate Catelyn ? coz....i don't

There are several other characters I "hate" first: Freys, Ramsay, Roose, Tywin lannister, cersei, Joff, the mountain, JAnos slynt...

Catelyn is cool cat, she came back from the dead, uncat!

While Tywin died on the privy...that's lame!

[Scafloc]

I was referring specifically to the argument that you and several others were making about how Cat fans won't accept that Cat was wrong in saying that. The assertion that Cat fans won't acknowledge the wrongness in saying that was what I was speaking to. Most Cat fans like myself do indeed see this as "wrong" in an absolute sense, but we sympathize with her deeply there anyway (and hence, don't hold it against her).

I wasn't calling anyone's negative feelings of that scene a strawman; only the assertions of victimhood that posters were referring to.

Well you can have your opinions if I can have mine

[Florina Laufeyson]

you shall indeed keep banging your head because no one can dictate or judge how a reader responds to something they read. you can argue that a reader didn't understand a scene and help them comprehend it or explain the elements and symbolism of a scene or how a scene is based on something in an attempt to frame it but you cannot tell a reader how they should react to something they read. that is the beauty of reading: individual connection and interpretation.

Did i say that one had to LIKE Catelyn? No i did not. But its blatantly obvious that Martin's aim here was for us to sympathize with both Jon and Cat here. Cat undergoing a great deal of emotional duress and Jon getting a very nasty thing tossed in his direction. Its probably why his reaction to the Cat hate based on that scene was all "da hell?" Reader interpretation and author intent are not the same thing.

[FittleLinger]

I didn't state that it was a reason to hate or make general conclusions about Catelyn.

I know I know, I just quoted you because you were the last poster before me to give this example, and it is a widely used example by Cat haters, not because I think you would justify hate based on it. I understood what you meant perfectly, just didn't use the best wording (or more like the best quoting).

[Little Wing]

Cat is one of the characters I commiserated with while reading. She was faced with difficult decisions and had the right of it many a time but no one listened to her... the irrational, temperamental side is not something I hate about her. It makes for an interesting and very compelling character. Count me in the "was surprised to see all the hate" when I joined the boards.

Oh, and I am a Jon fan, too.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I know I know, I just quoted you because you were the last poster before me to give this example, and it is a widely used example by Cat haters, not because I think you would justify hate based on it. I understood what you meant perfectly, just didn't use the best wording (or more like the best quoting).

It happens. :)

[jons nissa]

Did i say that one had to LIKE Catelyn? No i did not. But its blatantly obvious that Martin's aim here was for us to sympathize with both Jon and Cat here. Cat undergoing a great deal of emotional duress and Jon getting a very nasty thing tossed in his direction. Its probably why his reaction to the Cat hate based on that scene was all "da hell?" Reader interpretation and author intent are not the same thing.

actually i didn't say anything about liking cat. i just responded to your comment about how and who we should have sympathized with in that scene.

i don't believe anything about grrm's aim is blatantly obvious. if it were, there wouldn't be such different views about that scene. and i have a theory about grrm's comments. that said, i do believe he overdid some things in his first book as he set up his characters which he may or may not have intended.