Why do people hate Catelyn?

[redviper9]

Given the level of vitriol, I always assumed it must be because of that one time she commanded her son to rape a woman he thought was a prostitute after forcing her sentries on the girl first, and/ or her penchant for wearing the skins of people she's hunted.

You mean she didn't do all those things? Clearly it's time for a reread ;)

It depends on how the point is presented. The majority of time on the forum, Cat's relationship with Jon is confused with what happened in the show where Cat says something like "It should have been you." This doesn't happen in the books. In the books, Cat is emotionless and asks him to leave, threatens to call the guards. She doesn't call for guards and confides in Jon instead. She's full of grief. There are reasonable arguments about Cat's relationship with Jon, but the unsubstantiated one - the one that happened in the show - isn't reasonable.

Actually, it's book Cat that tells Jon that "it should have been him." Show Cat is the one that just asks Jon to leave the room (something that show Ned witnesses).

[Daario's*before*Snows]

There is always the element of fandom influencing the feelings of readers.

For example, after reading the series I was indifferent about Stannis, but the Stannis/Dany fan rivalry has made me completely hate Stannis.

I have to think theres some of this going on with Cat

[mcb]

It depends on how the point is presented. The majority of time on the forum, Cat's relationship with Jon is confused with what happened in the show where Cat says something like "It should have been you." This doesn't happen in the books. In the books, Cat is emotionless and asks him to leave, threatens to call the guards. She doesn't call for guards and confides in Jon instead. She's full of grief. There are reasonable arguments about Cat's relationship with Jon, but the unsubstantiated one - the one that happened in the show - isn't reasonable.

Sorry, what? You quoted the exact line from the book.

Jon did not know what to say. “It wasn’t your fault,” he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. “I need none of your absolution, bastard.”

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran’s hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. “Good-bye,” he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

“Yes?” he said.

“It should have been you,” she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard.

[Dr. Pepper]

Properly corrected and edited.

[Scafloc]

It depends on how the point is presented. The majority of time on the forum, Cat's relationship with Jon is confused with what happened in the show where Cat says something like "It should have been you." This doesn't happen in the books. In the books, Cat is emotionless and asks him to leave, threatens to call the guards. She doesn't call for guards and confides in Jon instead. She's full of grief. There are reasonable arguments about Cat's relationship with Jon, but the unsubstantiated one - the one that happened in the show - isn't reasonable.

The quote "it should have been you" is from the books.

I really agree that if your child is almost dead it is a good reason why you are not the most friendly person at the time. That makes her reaction understandable (and human) but that does not make it ok.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

How much of a choice did she have? The King and her Lord agreed on it and she found out about it after the fact, is she going to back out of it later on?

To be fair, she was the one trying to convince Ned to agree to the betrothal.

Again, what choice did they have? Tywin Lannister was on his way with a large army, either they secure the crossing or they're all dead.

Agreed.

[Theda Baratheon]

There is always the element of fandom influencing the feelings of readers.

For example, after reading the series I was indifferent about Stannis, but the Stannis/Dany fan rivalry has made me completely hate Stannis.

I have to think theres some of this going on with Cat

Sadly, this probably is a case. I never let the fandom influence my opinion on the characters, however; i'm definitely not looking down on you for doing this, so please don't assume that, I think it's just different for every person.

I am very interested in reading theories and discussions within the fandom but am quite staunch in my beliefs and opinions of characters.

[butterbumps!]

I'm one of the more rabid Cat fans (and an even more rabid Jon fan), and I find this to be a strawman argument being as how I (and others who like Cat) have acknowledged the objective "wrongness" of telling another person "it should have been you."

The issue I have with the way the Jon/Cat dynamic is discussed is that often those who dislike Cat exaggerate and extend her treatment of Jon to levels that are almost fan fiction. Yes, in an ideal scenario, Cat would not have told Jon it should have been him. This was not a "good" thing. However, Martin has stated that this was a one time event and not indicative of her treatment of him, that was more about civil coexistence than anything else. The way I see it, yes, it is wrong to say something like that to someone in an absolute sense, however, I can simultaneously sympathize with her for doing this and appreciate it as a conflict of interests between two characters I like tremendously.

[E-Ro]

For example, after reading the series I was indifferent about Stannis, but the Stannis/Dany fan rivalry has made me completely hate Stannis.

:lmao: LOL hes not for everyone.

On topic, I like cat.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Her hatred of Jon actually seems like a very human quality. It's a flaw, but it makes her more compelling IMO. She's always struck me as one of GRRM's most realistic characters.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Catelyn's comment to Jon went beyond grieving mother/resentful wife. It was unnecessarily harsh.

I still love her as a character/mom, but that is the one thing I cannot forgive nor understand. I've convinced myself to ignore it when discussing her character.

[jons nissa]

to reply to the op, this quote is, imho, at the heart of all the cat-hate:

Jon did not know what to say. "It wasn't your fault," he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard.

this becomes a defining moment for both jon and cat and for both, fans tend to hold them both to this scene. so when jon does something "not so wonderful" he's given an exemption. after all, he tried to extend kindness to cat during her most difficult moment despite her treatment of him the whole time he lived at winterfell. and when cat does something that doesn't turn out well, she's completely vilified despite giving some of the most sound advice during the war of the 5 kings. this scene, imho, is why cat is judged so harshly for her mistakes and her triumphs are overlooked by many readers.

[Theda Baratheon]

Her hatred of Jon actually seems like a very human quality. It's a flaw, but it makes her more compelling IMO. She's always struck me as one of GRRM's most realistic characters.

I definitely agree with this.

I mentioned before, in medieval times a bastard would definitely have been looked upon with disdain by the wife of the Father. The fear of Jon, on her children's behalf, and the deep resentment stems more from the belief that her beloved Ned was unfaithful.

Its definitely not an unrealistic relationship.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Do i need to explain again how we, the reader, are actually supposed to be sympathetic to both characters in that scene again?

:bang:

[Scafloc]

I'm one of the more rabid Cat fans (and an even more rabid Jon fan), and I find this to be a strawman argument being as how I (and others who like Cat) have acknowledged the objective "wrongness" of telling another person "it should have been you."

If you are a rabid Catelyn fan or Jon fan that is ok. But what is you basis for saying to others that if they do not like the "it should have been comment" that that is a strawman argument??? Because it is a once only treatment that means that others have to think this is ok?

That is not exactly respecting (but disagreeing) which somebody elses opinion.

Edit: clarification: I am not saying that you yourself whould have a different opinion about Catelyn. I am only saying that I still do not like the remark and that is not a strawman argument.

[mcb]

The issue I have with the way the Jon/Cat dynamic is discussed is that often those who dislike Cat exaggerate and extend her treatment of Jon to levels that are almost fan fiction. Yes, in an ideal scenario, Cat would not have told Jon it should have been him. This was not a "good" thing. However, Martin has stated that this was a one time event and not indicative of her treatment of him, that was more about civil coexistence than anything else.

She had never called him by his name before. That doesn't hint at "civil coexistence". "Barely, technically civil", maybe.

But agreed, she gets unfair amount of shit for that line. She was in excruciating pain. The worst moment of her life, by then (but George fixed that).

[Éadaoin]

to reply to the op, this quote is, imho, at the heart of all the cat-hate:

That accounts for some of it but there are also some interesting people out there who cite things like her treatment of Littlefinger.

I mean, really?

[Dr. Pepper]

The quote "it should have been you" is from the books.

I really agree that if your child is almost dead it is a good reason why you are not the most friendly person at the time. That makes her reaction understandable (and human) but that does not make it ok.

I edited my post because I see I got it wrong. Still, the relationship between Jon and Cat is often exaggerated and used to completely define Cat's character. The comment is very mean and hurtful but it's definitely understandable. I experienced this sort of scene when my brother died. I think we've all been in situations where grief makes us say or do things we wouldn't otherwise. I'm sympathetic to Cat in that moment. I think Jon was also sympathetic, especially after she implied that she felt she was at fault for praying for Bran to stay.

[butterbumps!]

If you are a rabid Catelyn fan or Jon fan that is ok. But what is you basis for saying to others that if they do not like the "it should have been comment" that that is a strawman argument??? Because it is a once only treatment that means that others have to think this is ok?

That is not exactly respecting (but disagreeing) which somebody elses opinion.

I was referring specifically to the argument that you and several others were making about how Cat fans won't accept that Cat was wrong in saying that. The assertion that Cat fans won't acknowledge the wrongness in saying that was what I was speaking to. Most Cat fans like myself do indeed see this as "wrong" in an absolute sense, but we sympathize with her deeply there anyway (and hence, don't hold it against her).

I wasn't calling anyone's negative feelings of that scene a strawman; only the assertions of victimhood that posters were referring to.

[FittleLinger]

I'm one of the more rabid Cat fans (and an even more rabid Jon fan), and I find this to be a strawman argument being as how I (and others who like Cat) have acknowledged the objective "wrongness" of telling another person "it should have been you."

The issue I have with the way the Jon/Cat dynamic is discussed is that often those who dislike Cat exaggerate and extend her treatment of Jon to levels that are almost fan fiction. Yes, in an ideal scenario, Cat would not have told Jon it should have been him. This was not a "good" thing. However, Martin has stated that this was a one time event and not indicative of her treatment of him, that was more about civil coexistence than anything else. The way I see it, yes, it is wrong to say something like that to someone in an absolute sense, however, I can simultaneously sympathize with her for doing this and appreciate it as a conflict of interests between two characters I like tremendously.

Same situation here, to be honest the Cat hate was one of the more surprising things I found out when I started reading the forums. I am a big Jon fan as well, but people are pushing it so hard. She was by no means the awful mother-in-law people represent. This has started to look like some blind fanship - anyone who looks my guy the wrong way is a horrible person. And her feelings are understandable, and I think even by Jon, and he didn't have much of a problem and wasn't very surprised I think.

Catelyn's comment to Jon went beyond grieving mother/resentful wife. It was unnecessarily harsh.

I still love her as a character/mom, but that is the one thing I cannot forgive nor understand. I've convinced myself to ignore it when discussing her character.

Well yeah but it was just that - an unnecesseraly harsh comment by a grieving mother. Not enough reason to hate or make general conclusions IMO.