9 horrifyingly botched police raids: How do we keep this from happening?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Let's say the police perform a "no-knock" entry on the wrong house, the homeowner grabs a gun and starts shooting cops, would the homeowner face criminal charges?

Or what if the homeowner just pulls his gun out and aims it at police, as the police guns are being pointed at him. Are the police justified in shoiting him.

In other words, if the suspect just has a gun aimed at police, is that grounds to shoot him?

Thlayli,

Absolutely not. They are defending themselves from an armed incursion into their home by people with absolutely no right to be there. However, if an officer is shot I think the homeowner may be liable for negligence if they cannot show a good reason for opening fire on the officers.

It is hard to mistake people in body armor, shouting, "police, drop your weapon", for home invasion robbers. If it happened to me, I'd be totally compliant to survive the incident. Then I'd demand that criminal charges be filed, sue them individually, the police department and the city, and do my best to see that they were dismissed from the police department. However, if they shot my 15 year old Golden Retriever who is totally blind and deaf, then all bets are off.

[Kalbear]

Robin hill, does it change your mind at all to know that a fully compliant grandfather was shot in the head? Would you be totally cool with knowing that being fully compliant instead of actively protesting caused the death of you or a loved one?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

It is hard to mistake people in body armor, shouting, "police, drop your weapon", for home invasion robbers. If it happened to me, I'd be totally compliant to survive the incident. Then I'd demand that criminal charges be filed, sue them individually, the police department and the city, and do my best to see that they were dismissed from the police department. However, if they shot my 15 year old Golden Retriever who is totally blind and deaf, then all bets are off.

So the idea is if police have their guns pointed at me, i have no right to defend myself against the threat of me being shot.

Yet if im pointing my gun at police they are justified in shooting me? Or what if i make a motion like im reaching for a visible gun? Is it ok for me to be shot then?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Robin hill, does it change your mind at all to know that a fully compliant grandfather was shot in the head? Would you be totally cool with knowing that being fully compliant instead of actively protesting caused the death of you or a loved one?

I'd still go with the odds, which say, "resistance is futile".

[Robin Of House Hill]

So the idea is if police have their guns pointed at me, i have no right to defend myself against the threat of me being shot.

Yet if im pointing my gun at police they are justified in shooting me? Or what if i make a motion like im reaching for a visible gun? Is it ok for me to be shot then?

If they are already pointing their guns at me, there is no practical way I can defend myself, and since, in a no knock entry, they will already have their guns drawn, pointing a gun at them, can have only one outcome. As for the question of reaching for a visible gun, do you seriously want them to wait for you to actually grab it, before they fire?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

If they are already pointing their guns at me, there is no practical way I can defend myself, and since, in a no knock entry, they will already have their guns drawn, pointing a gun at them, can have only one outcome. As for the question of reaching for a visible gun, do you seriously want them to wait for you to actually grab it, before they fire?

Oh so if I point a gun at a police officer first, there is no practical way for him or her to defend themselves?

I dont want the police to shoot me at all, especially if they point their guns at me due to a fukup.

If the police want equality with citizens when the trials and charges start then there should be equality when the incident occurs.

So police can legally point there guns at me and I have no right to use a gun to defend myself from that.

Equality would be allowing the suspect to point his gun back and whoever shoots first is the criminal

[baxus]

So police can legally point there guns at me and I have no right to use a gun to defend myself from that.

of what use is the debate whether you have the right to defend yourself from police when it is rather probable that you would be shot if you tried to do it?

you might have a chance of puling an "i didn't know it was the police" card in your defense when it came to court if they failed to identify themselves, but i can't think of a court that would convict police officers for shooting someone who shot at them first, wrong address on the warrant or not.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

of what use is the debate whether you have the right to defend yourself from police when it is rather probable that you would be shot if you tried to do it?

you might have a chance of puling an "i didn't know it was the police" card in your defense when it came to court if they failed to identify themselves, but i can't think of a court that would convict police officers for shooting someone who shot at them first, wrong address on the warrant or not.

What about just pointing the gun at the police? Is that grounds for being shot? Police can point a gun at you.

What if you make a motion like you are grabbing for a visible gun?

I dont see how that can be called equality.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

baxus,

Why does a police officer acting on a warrant that doesn't have your address Or name on it have any authority to act against your person upon entry to your home?

[Kalbear]

Yeah, I don't get that at all.

If a bunch of armed people go into the wrong home, it doesn't matter if they made a mistake - it's a bunch of armed people going into a home. If you have the wrong house then I would hope police protections and things like lawful homicides don't apply.

[RaceBannon42]

What about just pointing the gun at the police? Is that grounds for being shot? Police can point a gun at you.

What if you make a motion like you are grabbing for a visible gun?

I dont see how that can be called equality.

Who cares about equality if you are dead? If LEO's bust in to your house with a no knock warranty, whether its wrong or not, pointing a gun at them and refusing to drop it is 99% likely to get you shot and almost certainly killed. I'm sure being in the right will comfort your family when they sue the government, but its not going to make you alive again.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Who cares about equality if you are dead? If LEO's bust in to your house with a no knock warranty, whether its wrong or not, pointing a gun at them and refusing to drop it is 99% likely to get you shot and almost certainly killed. I'm sure being in the right will comfort your family when they sue the government, but its not going to make you alive again.

So dont question police procedure in any way? Or else you will be killed? Are my local authorities going to come kill me just for asking these questions?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

When it comes down to it, I think at the most basic level we should seriously be rethinking giving police the power to forcibly enter any home without providing a warning at the very least.

"No knock" or "Announce and enter" warrants came about because of the likelihood of drug dealers flushing their coke down the toilet and thus destroying the evidence before the police could get to them. Now they're used all the time for a variety of reasons because the police like to swing their dicks around. Get rid of the war on drugs and the basis for a no-knock warrant goes away.

[baxus]

@Ser Scot A Ellison:

1. scenario i spoke about was with your address being on the warrant, and that mistake was made before your doors were crashed.

2. i'm no legal expert, but if police, even when they don't have your address on the warrant, come running into your bedroom screaming: "police! put your hands up!" and you open fire they could make a rather strong self-defense case for firing back. or am i wrong?

@Eye*Non:

let me put it this way... if you were a police officer storming a house you have a valid warrant for (or think you have a valid warrant for), you and your colleagues are shouting you're the police, you go into a room and have a person in your crosshairs and he is holding a gun in his hands and is making a move to point it at you, what would your reaction be?

would you say: "oh, since i'm pointing a gun at him it's only fair he points a gun at me"? would you ponder whether you had the right house? or would you just shoot?

civilians and police are not equal, never will be and should not be. police officers have certain duties to perform, such as storming and searching a house or an apartment under certain circumstances. as a civilian, i can NEVER do that legally, no matter the circumstances. that's about as unequal as it gets.

i'm not saying that, should your home ever be wrongly searched by cops doing a half-assed job you should just let it slide. law enforcement definitely needs to be better controlled and you certainly should take legal action against them, but what you certainly should not do is open fire since it would almost certainly end with people being injured or killed, you very probably being one of them. i just can't grasp an idea of endangering yourself and your family (in case your spouse and kids are in the house as well) in a shootout with the police in the middle of your home when that situation can be solved rather easily without anyone getting hurt.

Who cares about equality if you are dead? If LEO's bust in to your house with a no knock warranty, whether its wrong or not, pointing a gun at them and refusing to drop it is 99% likely to get you shot and almost certainly killed. I'm sure being in the right will comfort your family when they sue the government, but its not going to make you alive again.

this is what i was trying to say. "he was right" epitaph wouldn't do you any good.

[RaceBannon42]

So dont question police procedure in any way? Or else you will be killed? Are my local authorities going to come kill me just for asking these questions?

Question them all you like. They probably won't come kill you for asking questions on the internet.

Questioning procedure is not the same as pointing a gun at police. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but point a gun at police is a very good way to get shot.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Question them all you like. They probably won't come kill you for asking questions on the internet.

Questioning procedure is not the same as pointing a gun at police. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but point a gun at police is a very good way to get shot.

I was in a house that was raided by police, i got down on the ground just like they said.

You do not have to convince me of the dangers of pointing a gun at police.

Now we have that out of the way.

[baxus]

So dont question police procedure in any way? Or else you will be killed? Are my local authorities going to come kill me just for asking these questions?

how can you consider "if police officers point their guns at me then i should be allowed to point a gun at them" to be "questioning police procedure"?

You're invested with greater powers than the average citizen, so you should be held to a higher standard of responsibility as well.

i agree with this completely.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

civilians and police are not equal, never will be and should not be. police officers have certain duties to perform, such as storming and searching a house or an apartment under certain circumstances. as a civilian, i can NEVER do that legally, no matter the circumstances. that's about as unequal as it gets.

Then when it comes to dole out punishment, police shouldnt be asking for equality with citizens.

[baxus]

Then when it comes to dole out punishment, police shouldnt be asking for equality with citizens.

they should be punished more severely, no question about it.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

how can you consider "if police officers point their guns at me then i should be allowed to point a gun at them" to be "questioning police procedure"?

Because current police procedure does not allow it.