Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Uncat]

On a sidenote on Tyrions travels:

Ragnorak, I don't know if you discussed this one back when you discussed that chapter, but I got kind of stuck on this part:

“I believe you,” Tyrion said, but what he thought was, And who will go find you? He shivered.

Many a Heresy ago Black Crow connected Jon saying, that he would go and find his uncle in AGOT with the SSM saying that we will see the Lands of Always Winter. BC took this as Jon basically telling us, what he will do later in the story. Now this connection in mind, that rethorical inner question of Tyrion cries out for one answer:

Tyrion will.

I haven't got the slightest idea of when and how or even if. But seing how Tyrion eats up miles throughout the books and how he connects the different theaters, I would not write it off

[Lummel]

“Just saying a thing does not make it true” p240 – a warning from GRRM?

I Remembered that Tormund says much the same thing about writing in Jon XIII. So rather like the in-story criticism of the notional eight thousand year history of Westeros this does seem to me to be a warning from GRRM to not take things at face value.

[Blisscraft]

Blisscraft, I´m linking to The Waste Land , since I cannot be the only one who hasn´t read it, till now. I´m always a bit overenthused when learning something new, but I see a lot of themes of the whole of Martins story touched in Eliot´s poem.

Is Young Griff comparable to Hyacinth? That would be some foreboding.

Thank you, Lykos! I am utterly without redemption when it comes to "linking." Also, I am delighted you enjoyed the poem. It's an amazing piece. When I was young, it was refered to as an "old chestnut" and yet even many years later it captivates my imagination. As for the Hyacinth girl, very interesting. There's a nightingale in there for Ragnorak as well. :laugh:

[Lummel]

Well I suppose this foggy, flooded city is a wasteland and the poem as far as I can remember from twenty years ago ties in with some of the themes, loss, post war, moral emptiness, searching for spirituality. ADWD suddenly feels very literary with this and the shakespeare references.

...The Dornish orphans recall Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella as she also sought to hide her heir on a riverboat too...

Interesting parallel. History repeats itself, first as tragedy and then as comedy, hmm.

But this time round it seems to be a more professional job. Although not so professional so as to avoid the wasteland.

On the theme of ruins and old civilisations, that made me think GRRM has borrowed some influences for JRR Tolkien, who was big on inserting ruins of older civilisations. You cannot read LOTR without picking up on the longing for times past and the glorious civilisations now lost in time, where the buildings where bigger, more beautiful and ever so splendid, and which makes the here and now a bit bland and less in comparison...

Yes definitely a borrowing but I think the use is different. In LOTR the past was better, the future can't match up to it, the descent from the golden age to the present is inexorable. My feeling here is more along the lines of what Uncat suggested - a cyclical, maybe a seasonal, history. There will be ups and down, the valyrians were a high point, but I don't have the LOTR sense of inevitable loss and decline :dunno:

[Blisscraft]

Well I suppose this foggy, flooded city is a wasteland and the poem as far as I can remember from twenty years ago ties in with some of the themes, loss, post war, moral emptiness, searching for spirituality. ADWD suddenly feels very literary with this and the shakespeare references.

Certainly hope this is not a "bad thing." When I first read these books, I was intrigued at the number of "literary" allusions, especially for a genre piece. Recently, I have read complaints that some of the reread threads "over analyize" the books. I feel like I am a part of that over analysis and yet, I seem to see the allusions to other works outside of the genre along with many other posters. It adds to the enjoyment of the discussion when I read a post like Elba's above. However, I am prepared to tone it down. I shall have no captains but you, dears Lummel, BB! and Ragnorak. :commie:

[Lummel]

...This is a chapter where the mood seems to be the message. It recalls the ever rational Tyrion as he stares out at the Haunted Forest from on top of the Wall and a deep inner fear shakes his intellect.

It also helps set the feeling of dread later for Cotter Pyke's "dead things in the water." With all of our other examples of magic there has been a magician with a (mostly) known intent. Here there seems to be a malevolence in the land as if it remembers and resents what was lost. This city or its people have not gone gently into that good night.

The fog here and the stone men definitely bring the mists of the Others and wights to mind. The tale of the Shouded Lord bears a resemblance to the Nights King too. In case we miss those connections we've got Haldon to remind us...

Lord! Dylan Thomas too, is there no end to the poets we can link to :laugh: but you know this chapter reminded me of the odyssey, Scylla and charybdis, but more generally that sense of travelling through a landscape partly human and normal conforming to social norms but also weird and magical by turns.

Certainly a very moody chapter. One of the moodiest in the book mayhaps along with Jeyne Poole's marriage.

...I noted that the real reason Tyrion did not want to bath in the river was because he did not want Septa Lemore to see him naked...When you are naked in front of someone it makes you vulnerable and he doesn't want to appear vulnerable before the representative of the religious faith that we have already seen Tyrion most closely associates with...

I think this could apply to Tyrion here as well as we see him taking on a mummer's role by hiding his true identity, by coming up with the fake back story of being in a mummer's troupe, and he even takes pleasure in doing some mummer's tricks like the cartwheel, and gets to wear motley type clothing that Lemore has made for him. Tyrion is still not ready to face the judgement of the seven yet and still needs to hide behind his motley persona that he has created for himself.

Interesting, although I'm not sure that Tyrion does submit himself to that judgement in ADWD. I agree the mummery is hiding as well as performance.

...When he visited the first of these hinges at the beginning of his arch is interesting to recall that Tyrion never crossed through. Much like with his power and influence at the time of the story Tyrion stood atop of it (and probably pissed on the other side as well ;) ) and from that aloof perspective contemplated it all. Now that he has been brought low he is forced not only to literally crossed under the hinge but he also has to fight for the right to do so. He has to prove himself worthy. Traveling with comfort on top of the bridge is no longer an option...

Reminds me of, I think, Blisscraft pointing to the tunnel through the Wall as a symbol of rebirth in the learning to lead thread. Like you said that time Tyrion stood on top, this time he travels through - twice.

We've spoken of rebirth so often with Tyrion that these thread feel like a maternity ward, I suppose a wider point to make is that Tyrion was until the end of ASOS stuck under his father's influence. There was a need for him to break out and as Elba was saying citing Milady of York citing C G Jung reform the persona and develop a sense of himself as more capable than his father or at least as capable and therefore worthy of replacing him as Lord of Casterly Rock.

... When I first read these books, I was intrigued at the number of "literary" allusions, especially for a genre piece. Recently, I have read complaints that some of the reread threads "over analyize" the books. I feel like I am a part of that over analysis and yet, I seem to see the allusions to other works outside of the genre along with many other posters. It adds to the enjoyment of the discussion when I read a post like Elba's above...

There is a good variety of threads on offer at the moment. Nobody has to contribute, nobody has to accept the ideas we come up with although naturally I hope we do point out things from the text that do get picked up and spread around the forum.

I hope that everybody feels free to add their ideas and insights and to discuss what other people see in the story too.

I suppose rereading Tyrion I feel even more how dense the text is, referring backwards to earlier moments but other books (and no doubt art forms and castles and who knows what). A lot of work.

[Uncat]

As we are collecting literary allisions, I'll throw in Poe and The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket. I can't nail it down with a quote. It is rather the atmosphere of this chapter. It reminds me so much of how I felt when reading the last chapters of that book. At the end of an ever stranger voyage, Pym and a fellow traveler are adrift in an open boat. The boat is drifting to the South Pole while the world around them becomes ever stranger and somehow supernatural. The book ends appruptly, when Pyme gets to the pole and finds an ice spynx (which by the way is the riddle and not the riddler there, too)

[Lummel]

... The book ends appruptly, when Pyme gets to the pole and finds an ice spynx (which by the way is the riddle and not the riddler there, too)

:laugh: I surrender (although it's a bit michael moorcock too, sailor on the seas of fate :leaving: )

What did you all make of Tyrion's reveal? I'm torn between the mechanics of creating tension, Tyrion's big mouth potentially getting him into trouble, the idea that he's been stewing on this ever since beating Haldane at Cyvasse in the previous chapter or that he's so pleased with himself for puzzling it out (such a pity he stopped before dealing with Septa Lemore) that he can't contain himself!

[Uncat]

Sorry, Lummel, This rather a jump back. Those mushrooms and Tyrions fantasy about using them.

There was a discussion, if those mushrooms are things to collect for a later use. I think, they allready served their purpose: Tyrion was powerless, when he arives at Illyrio's. But the mushrooms empower him.

For once, they give him the power to end his own life. That in turn, turns a wish-for-it situation into a decide-on-it situation. Then, it gives him the power to leave, if he wants, which is the best way to make some stay (just a little longer...)

But more then that, they give him the power to kill. I would say just like Jaquen gave it to Arya, though that is different, I guess.

Anyway. I don't know, if he will use them. But it is very important for him, to have them. After a long time of passive drinking they give him options and even call for decisions. If we assume, they were "send" by Bloodraven, we could read them as a question: "Tyrion Lannister, are you in or out?"

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Don't know if it's even relevant or even foreshadowing, but Aegon hesitates to kill the grey scale guy attacking him in this chapter and Brienne recalls her master at arms telling her about a knight with great promise who hesitates and dies.

Can't remember if its this chapter or the last, but Griff sets Tyrion to doing needle work and he enjoys it. With the Arya meeting a kracken and dragon before flying back to Winterfell foreshadowing, maybe Tyrion and Arya meet up as well

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft, I think the literary references are fine. Some are archetypal and have a certain universal application plus there are both conscious and unconscious influences and references on Martin's part. Like in Fevre Dream he has the steamboat renamed Ozymandius so we know he likes that one. Plus it has been years since I've recalled Wasteland and it was quite enjoyable to reaquaint myself. I like Lyanna's observation about LoTR and the sense of history too.

To continue running with that theme Tyrion seems perfectly willing to go gently into that good night when he goes overboard. On the Blackwater he fought and struggled to the last for life.

His eyes were full of water, his mouth was full of blood, and his head throbbed horribly. Gods give me strength to reach the deck… There was nothing else, only the oar, the water, the deck.

He thinks it is Jaime that saves him when Pod rescues him and later dreams of Tysha while recovering from the battle. Here he thinks no one will mourn his passing. Instead of a Jaime who would rescue him he recalls the father whom he killed. Instead of dreaming of Tysha he remembers strangling Shae.

I like the mummery catches. I'm beginning to think there's a major mummery theme throughout Tyrion and I wish we were on the lookout for it from the beginning.

I don't see any connections to the Drowned God but Tyrion's technically getting baptized into that religion too.

What did you all make of Tyrion's reveal? I'm torn between the mechanics of creating tension, Tyrion's big mouth potentially getting him into trouble, the idea that he's been stewing on this ever since beating Haldane at Cyvasse in the previous chapter or that he's so pleased with himself for puzzling it out (such a pity he stopped before dealing with Septa Lemore) that he can't contain himself!

I think this was well played on Tyrion's part. He uses Aegon's safety as the excuse and opportunity for the reveal. Having figured some/all of it out and having had Haldon reveal or confirm the rest he knows Dany isn't the heir Illyrio and Varys have been backing. He doesn't need to wait to please Dany as he can start winning over the new Iron Throne occupant (or at least proving his worth) right now. He is a bit arrogant with his reveal but this also serves to cover for Haldon. This arrogance is mitigated by him revealing his own secret identity. This makes it more about sharing and joining the conspiracy than a "gotcha" moment. He's essentially asking to be a member rather than an outsider. He's also going to have to address his relationship to Tywin at some point given the fate of Elia, Rhaenys, and supposedly Aegon. Given Aegon's reaction I think it went as well as could be hoped for.

That Tyrion believes it is the real Aegon speaks volumes about the value of resurrecting JonCon at the same time as Aegon-- though in this case Tyrion noodled a secret out through his own merits which is quite different than being flat out told.

[Lykos]

Regarding the reveal, I tend to very much agree with Ragnorak, for now. This was very well put, Ragnorak.

I really had trouble to phrase this, partly because I have this stubborn idea that Tyrion learned that the story Griff and Young Griff believe to be true, isn´t the whole truth. And partly because I´m :dunce: .

I find Haldon and how his reelationship with Tyrion developes really interesting.

[Lummel]

I spotted a book review in the TLS about medieval English food and saw this:

The size of the operation required to feed the burgeoning entourages of high medieval aristocratic courts is consistently striking. The same Earl of Northumberland whose domains included Warkworth in one year purchased 123 “beefs” (at a cost of £86, or perhaps £65,000 today), 667 muttons, 160 gallons of mustard, 51lbs of pepper, 3lbs of saffron and a great deal else besides. The scale of this consumption reminds us of the huge expanse of patronage that a high medieval noble could command, and the amount of reciprocal loyalty and duty on which he, as a host, might be able to call. Food not only ordered the space behind the battlements, it kept the whole show on the road; if patronage oils the wheels of power, then it was most obviously manifested in feeding and being fed.

Medieval Western European produce also exposes something about the reach of that world. This is something that neither author gives much space to, which is a shame because the presence of, for example, large quantities of pepper in English larders reveals the tentacles of a trading network stretching from northern Britain to India.

which I mention in the spirit of over analysis just to draw out the politics of eating and who has what foods and who and how they consume them and share them - which thinking ahead is relevant to Tyrion in ADWD. We have the extravagant feasts with Illyrio, feeding off things from round the world, the simple fare shared with the other orphans on the boat, the food that Mormont gives him and feeding off the scraps of his owner's feast at the end. There is a big emphasis on Tyrion eating throughout the series which I think ties into Tyrion as a dwarf, dwarfs associated with the earth and baser, crudely physical drives

and it allows me to tack into

...There was a discussion, if those mushrooms are things to collect for a later use. I think, they allready served their purpose: Tyrion was powerless, when he arrives at Illyrio's. But the mushrooms empower him.

For once, they give him the power to end his own life. That in turn, turns a wish-for-it situation into a decide-on-it situation. Then, it gives him the power to leave, if he wants, which is the best way to make some stay (just a little longer...)

Anyway. I don't know, if he will use them. But it is very important for him, to have them. After a long time of passive drinking they give him options and even call for decisions. If we assume, they were "send" by Bloodraven, we could read them as a question: "Tyrion Lannister, are you in or out?"

Yes and that tells there is a limit to hs downward spiral. He believes he has the means to kill himself but doesn't plan on doing so. Revenge is more important - or maybe just some lust for life?

Don't know if it's even relevant or even foreshadowing, but Aegon hesitates to kill the grey scale guy attacking him in this chapter and Brienne recalls her master at arms telling her about a knight with great promise who hesitates and dies...

A good parallel. That's one way that GRRM works we have people telling us things about Aegon and how great he is, but here we see him freeze in action and the parallel to Brienne remembering her training tells us that Aegon hasn't been all that well trained because he lacks the absolutely key ability to act appropriately even under stress. If it wasn't for Tyrion he could well have ended up dead or greyscaled.

...I like the mummery catches. I'm beginning to think there's a major mummery theme throughout Tyrion and I wish we were on the lookout for it from the beginning.

you can always go back and double check ;)

I think this was well played on Tyrion's part. He uses Aegon's safety as the excuse and opportunity for the reveal...He's essentially asking to be a member rather than an outsider. He's also going to have to address his relationship to Tywin at some point given the fate of Elia, Rhaenys, and supposedly Aegon. Given Aegon's reaction I think it went as well as could be hoped for...

good point and seeing as he backs it up by acting to save Aegon it turns out to be the perfect entry into the conspiracy.

...I really had trouble to phrase this, partly because I have this stubborn idea that Tyrion learned that the story Griff and Young Griff believe to be true, isn´t the whole truth...

I think the story waddles on this. In Tyrion I and II we are set up to see how unlikely the escape story is and given the Blackfyre connection, here Tyrion reveals the Jon Connington version, in a future chapter there is more a sense of being hesitant about that and testing Aegon out. I agree that the message of these chapters is that we aren't getting the whole truth from anyone.

[Lykos]

Slightly off topic Lummel, but the food quote reminded me of a question I was pondering. Was food supply part of Varys´ plan for "Aegon"?

We saw it being used effectively by the Tyrells to win the Smallfolk´s love and considering that Aegon´s Conquest Come Again was planned for a later date probably the end of winter, when sieging would be much easier, it would make sense to have planned for food supplies of massive dimension. Same goes for Littlefinger, if only to profit from famine.

[Elba the Intoner]

Certainly hope this is not a "bad thing." When I first read these books, I was intrigued at the number of "literary" allusions, especially for a genre piece. Recently, I have read complaints that some of the reread threads "over analyize" the books. I feel like I am a part of that over analysis and yet, I seem to see the allusions to other works outside of the genre along with many other posters. It adds to the enjoyment of the discussion when I read a post like Elba's above. However, I am prepared to tone it down. I shall have no captains but you, dears Lummel, BB! and Ragnorak. :commie:

Thanks Blisscraft! I really enjoy reading your posts on symbolism too and as others have mentioned I hope you don't tone them down either. Frankly, I don't get the whole "rereads over analyze" argument on a site like this since almost every thread on here over analyzes an aspect of the story in one way or another. Even the silly "Who's the biggest badass" or "who would win in a fight between one badass vs another" threads, which I tend to avoid, I would guess over analyze the fighting skills of certain characters. And GRRM has said that he intends for the books to be read again and again and he writes them with that in mind, so one makes new discoveries with every reread.

[Blisscraft]

Analysis

Magic

What stood out for me the first time I read this chapter was GRRM's explicit use of magic and for some reason I found the boat repeating its trip under the Bridge of Dream more disturbing than Melisandre birthing the equally magical shadowbaby in ACOK. Magic in ASOIAF is always mysterious, but this was unusually overt. I still feel uncomfortable about the double journey beneath the Bridge of Dream. If you have to drift beneath twice surely it should be the Bridge of Dreams ;) . But maybe that is the point, there is only one dream here.

I quoted Lummel's above because it's so very important to this chapter. Long ago, I read some fantastic bridge imagery analysis from Ragnorak. I think it was in the PtP thread, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the bridge is first and foremost a symbol of connecting the spritual with the material. There is inherent in the bridge a means of lateral movement, from one side to the other side. A connection between river banks, so to speak. However, this bridge, The Bridge of Dreams, creates a relationship between what is above, on top of the bridge and what goes beneath it, which includes not only the little river boat and its band, but also the river itself. From this above and below, we certainly tie in to Winterfellian's note about the Wall and the perspective created from height, as well as the idea of a hinge or a means of connection between the material and the spritual. Finally, in acknowledging the the horizontal with the lateral, we get intersected lines, a crossroads.

Here, in the horizontal aspect of the bridge, we have a "Bridge over Troubled Water" and/or "water under the bridge." Going with the flow of the river, which is so like the Styx or any other river that ties the material world to the spiritual, creates a circle which brings our little crew to return where they started and "know that place for the first time." That is, what was missed the first time around, the fearsome stone folk, bringers of death and destruction dwelling in this loathesome miasma, literally crashes down from above to below to create "the big reveal," the "identity" of Young Griff as "Aegon," the lost dead boy, now found by the walking dead. I can't help but think that the partially submerged hand has a finger pointed at the boat each time it passed.

[Winterfellian]

I quoted Lummel's above because it's so very important to this chapter. Long ago, I read some fantastic bridge imagery analysis from Ragnorak. I think it was in the PtP thread, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the bridge is first and foremost a symbol of connecting the spritual with the material. There is inherent in the bridge a means of lateral movement, from one side to the other side. A connection between river banks, so to speak. However, this bridge, The Bridge of Dreams, creates a relationship between what is above, on top of the bridge and what goes beneath it, which includes not only the little river boat and its band, but also the river itself. From this above and below, we certainly tie in to Winterfellian's note about the Wall and the perspective created from height, as well as the idea of a hinge or a means of connection between the material and the spritual. Finally, in acknowledging the the horizontal with the lateral, we get intersected lines, a crossroads.

Here, in the horizontal aspect of the bridge, we have a "Bridge over Troubled Water" and/or "water under the bridge." Going with the flow of the river, which is so like the Styx or any other river that ties the material world to the spiritual, creates a circle which brings our little crew to return where they started and "know that place for the first time." That is, what was missed the first time around, the fearsome stone folk, bringers of death and destruction dwelling in this loathesome miasma, literally crashes down from above to below to create "the big reveal," the "identity" of Young Griff as "Aegon," the lost dead boy, now found by the walking dead. I can't help but think that the partially submerged hand has a finger pointed at the boat each time it passed.

If this is over analyzing, please don't stop! :bowdown:

That Tyrion believes it is the real Aegon speaks volumes about the value of resurrecting JonCon at the same time as Aegon-- though in this case Tyrion noodled a secret out through his own merits which is quite different than being flat out told.

Maybe am not understanding this but I have to ask, do you really think Tyrion believes in Aegon's identity? Am skeptical about this. To me is not that he believes Aegon but rather that he's willing to work with whatever identity they are giving him. More than once in the course of the travel in the Shy Maid he taunts Aegon by calling him dead boy.

[Ragnorak]

Lummel, the politics of food is just a spectacular catch and I love Blisscraft's bridge breakdown-- I still think there's someting to be gleaned from al the Stark children covered bridge references and this is quite helpful.

Maybe am not understanding this but I have to ask, do you really think Tyrion believes in Aegon's identity? Am skeptical about this. To me is not that he believes Aegon but rather that he's willing to work with whatever identity they are giving him. More than once in the course of the travel in the Shy Maid he taunts Aegon by calling him dead boy.

Tyrion refers to him as "the prince" in his own thoughts prior to the reveal and we don't get any hints of doubting here. This doesn't preclude Tyrion from revisiting this issue in his head later. I think Aegon as a secret is important to his believing. Illyrio never tells him this is Aegon just that he's a sellsword's son. Tyrion puzzling this out makes Young Griff being Aegon his own conclusion rather than a tale to be questioned. He's also managed to effectively unlock the vault and discover the treasure inside-- why suspect only fool's gold is locked in the vault?

At this point he sees Illyrio and Varys as having an heir and a spare and cleverly making their opening move with the spare. He doesn't know that Illyrio left Dany and Viserys without any support for years. Illyrio's lack of concern about Dany keeping Viserys's promise makes sense if he has Aegon. The Aegon reveal resolves most of the inconsistenies he's picked up on with Illyrio. The real outstanding question is still why Illyrio cares about the throne of Westeros. It may be he cares because of a personal debt to Varys which then leaves him with why Varys cares-- but Varys was in KL under Targaryen rule so his interest isn't as implausible (even if still as enigmatic) as an Essos cheesemonger's.

I would fully expect Tyrion's doubts to kick in when he meets Dany and has to resolve her account of Illyrio with his own. For now an Aegon makes everything but why Varys cares fall into place based on what Tyrion knows.

[Lummel]

...Was food supply part of Varys´ plan for "Aegon"?

We saw it being used effectively by the Tyrells to win the Smallfolk´s love and considering that Aegon´s Conquest Come Again was planned for a later date probably the end of winter, when sieging would be much easier, it would make sense to have planned for food supplies of massive dimension. Same goes for Littlefinger, if only to profit from famine.

I don't think we can say yet, but shortage of food is flagged up as an issue in the Riverlands since ASOS and the North in ADWD, the food stores of the Vale have had a couple of mentions. If GRRM wants to make something of starvation and famine in the next couple of books then he has laid the groundwork :dunno:

...the fearsome stone folk, bringers of death and destruction dwelling in this loathesome miasma, literally crashes down from above to below to create "the big reveal," the "identity" of Young Griff as "Aegon," the lost dead boy, now found by the walking dead...

I was wondering if there is anything worth saying about the fact that they are dying from the outside in. They become trapped inside the stone, cut off from the world. It is there for the horror, like leprosy but I wonder if it is too much of a stretch to see them as a literal counter point to characters who are figuratively trapped or petrified by their ideas, thinking or outlook?

...I would fully expect Tyrion's doubts to kick in when he meets Dany and has to resolve her account of Illyrio with his own. For now an Aegon makes everything but why Varys cares fall into place based on what Tyrion knows.

Should Barristan survive he and Tyrion could have some interesting conversations on the subject I'm sure. On the other hand there is enough there to suggest doubt and enough tension between Jon Connington on the one hand Illyrio and Varys on the other to be interesting.

[Blisscraft]

Winterfellian - Thank you. You made my day much brighter! :kiss:

Ragnorak - Will you link to your Stark/bridge analysis? I would love to read it again in the context of this chapter. Also, love the heir and spare idea. As we would say in the law, Illyrio and Varys are "wearing a belt and suspenders."

Lummel - Your note about dying from the outside in reminds me of a famous quote from Mark Twain: "Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." It's perhaps appropos of nothing, but slavery becomes a personal issue for Tyrion beyond the Mad Magazine, "What, me worry?" attitude he expresses above. Clever GRRM is switching things around on us as this riverboat journey is one towards enslavement rather than an escape from it. Also, with the greyscale disease, the progresssion is from the extremities, like frostbite (hmmm), until it reaches its ultimate destination: the brain; and then the body and mind goes mad. "Wrong thinking" as my mentor used to say, was the disease that created slavery, a "disease" of the mind that progressed outward; was justified and flourished only to result in civil war.