Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Lummel]

...Also, one of the qualities I love about GRRM's writing is the stories within the stories. It gives the series a depth and complexity that is sadly lacking in most genre works. Like Baelor the Blessed, too mentioned in this chapter, a wealth of stories attached to the "faithful" one. Most of his stories seem to involve destruction rather than building. :uhoh:

That's something I like too.

There's a difficulty though in if the stories are just stories - in story mythos, background to give cultural richness to the world, or if they are plot significant.

Because I see that Bliss mentions Ganesh: in Hinduism, before beginning any new task- a new job, moving, first day at college, opening a business-it is auspicious to make an offering to Ganesh, god of good beginnings.

Something to keep in mind for when we do the Jon Connington special spin off.

Blisscraft, love it! At the end of it all, all the giant heros with their dragons, trees and direwolfs will be broken, battled down by the efforts, maimed by the wounds of war on body and soul and the dwarf will be king...

But Tyrion King, what a great thought. And wouldn't his father be proud of him :D

It is a theory that I've seen around, probably stems from the end of Jon I AGOT when Tyrion looks as tall as a king. :dunno: , I'm no fan of foreshadowing at the moment, you pay your money, you take your choice.

Still there is something there in Blisscraft's juxtaposition of the Dove and the Bonesnapper as bestowing blessings and kingship. The bonesnapper doesn't seem as positive an image and suggests a narrower viewpoint and interests. No bird's eye view.

[Uncat]

Lummel, I know. And since I followed the "moments of foreshadowing" thread for a while, I'm even more cautious. I have no idea if that would be the end of it. But it wouldl be certainly be somethingIi would apreciate for the irony of it. Even the more, Tyrion the small will end up the largest of all, because he is the last man standing and thus bigger then the rest.

[Lummel]

...I always listen to several chapters en bloc and have therefore trouble disentangling what happens in each chapter, but I never had so much trouble to make a post without getting ahead of the reread as this time.

For example Joseph (and "the technicolour dreamcoat", that comes up in one of the next chapters), I thought of this as well Lummel.

I think the nursing till he was seven also was a conection to Robert Arryn and shows a longing for motherly love, that Tyrion never experienced. Tyrion is now free to "caper as he pleases" and use his "gift to make people smile", but his father still comes to his mind and bitter memories and guilt take over. And the father of his new life doesn´t allow him to numb these feelings with wine...

I like the Robert Arryn idea, so Tyrion is experimenting with ideas of other lives, other childhoods, that he could have had. He really is making the most of being a mummer!

Yes I have the feeling that the chapters are more tightly interwoven too. Maybe because they follow on closer together in time than in ASOS or ACOK? The story is speeding up in calender terms but slowing down because so much more is happening.

Lummel, I know. And since I followed the "moments of foreshadowing" thread for a while, I'm even more cautious...

Don't worry about it, I was just saying ;) Although I agree that would be some ending if Tyrion was left as last man standing.

ETA

Oh I looked up red wolves on the internet and was surprised to see that there is such a creature, in the old world I'd only ever heard of ordinary grey wolves (long extinct in Britain though) and dire wolves of course.

[Uncat]

on a side note: In the Arianna gift chapter, doesn't Arianna loose at cyvasse because she moves the dragons to soon, too?

Anyway, Are the dragons really game changers? Or are they just extremly powerfull trump cards you play to swing the game?

If you manage to grow dragons, yepp, they might be. But as long, as you only have a bunch, they are just trumps.

The thing about trump cards is, that they are great to change the direction of the game or to dominate it as atop player. But you will only keep ahead, if your trumps are backed by a good hand and if you have a notion of how to play that hand. That is, what we saw with Aegon I. He knew, how the kingdoms would play once he landed and he put his precious three dragons to the best use, he could. But he never gained enough power to conquer Dorne. He did not change the game, he only established the Targs as the lead players. That is why, after the crushing first blow he switched to a more cooperative strategy (being crowned in Oldtown by the Faith, letting the King who Kneeled be and so on.)

And fore now, the same goes with Danny. She can unbalance the game, swing it and make it unpredictable. But she doesn't have the power to shut it down and start a new one. That power she would only have, if she manages to breed more dragons.

[Lykos]

Uncat, I agree with Aegon altering the game by establishing Targaryen rule and I think he did it on the behest or influence of others. I think the use of dragons is what the legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer warned against as it said in the Jade compendion.

".... Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

This … Fire is a hideous way to die. Small wonder half the hells are made of flame. “Cover him.”

Missandei pulled the coverlet over the prince’s face.

“What will be done with him, ser? He is so very far from home.”

“I’ll see that he’s returned to Dorne.” But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that. We’ll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. ... . But you have done enough for now, child. Go

and rest.” And if the gods are good, you will not dream of dragons. After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell’s face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince’s flesh had sloughed

away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus. He should have stayed in Dorne. He should have stayed a frog. Not all men are meant to dance with dragons.

The Queens Hand. Dance.

We should probably stay with the Cyvasse for now, where Dragons are the ultimate force, but hard to controll. That´s why you should keep them close, lest someone takes it from you or it goes unchecked.

ETA: According to an SSM, I can´t find right now, there have always been dragons. That means it´s not their existence, that´s the problem, but people trying to put them to their use.

[Woman of War]

Also, one of the qualities I love about GRRM's writing is the stories within the stories.  It gives the series a depth and complexity that is sadly lacking in most genre works.  Like Baelor the Blessed, too mentioned in this chapter, a wealth of stories attached to the "faithful" one.  Most of his stories seem to involve destruction rather than building

wonderfully said

THE ruins:

When I read the text those structures along the Rhoyne extremely reminded me of Cambodian Angkor and its secret silent melancholy. When I was there the danger of post war time was still palpable, traces of war everywhere, and we were warned never to leave the paths because of the bombs still in the ground - and the snakes in the jungle. I was there with my two children of at that time eleven and nine and my husband as crazy backpacking photographers. We had that feeling of past glory followed by disaster and nature claiming back what is hers and we were awestruck by the so very sensual beauty around us. The ultimate adventure for the kids. We had only local people to guide us and so we saw the most wonderful things travel groups may not see now anymore. And sculptures got stolen now and treated without any respect.

When I read your wonderful observations about Hindu mythology, Ganesha and dreamy bridges, I feel like being back there.

http://www.enjoytravelvietnam.com/Upload/Tour/1452012202854_Angkor%20Thom2.jpg

http://images.travelindochina.com/cambodia/temples-of-angkor/ta-phrom-temples-of-angkor_26_498.jpg

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/jjuncadella/jjuncadella1211/jjuncadella121100070/16362361-faces-in-the-temples-of-angkor.jpg

http://images.travelindochina.com/cambodia/temples-of-angkor/angkor-wat-temples-of-angkor_09_498.jpg

Now you know why I love travelogues.

[Lykos]

Woman of War, how I envy you. I´d love to see Angkor.

[Ragnorak]

Women of War, thank you for sharing those pictures. They're beautiful and fit perfectly.

I think melancholy is an almost perfect word for the ruins-- it only falls short in missing the allure of the history although even that is scented with a sadness. The ruins are overrun with life, if not human life, which mitigates the sense of destruction we see in Arya's Riverland chapters and Meereen.

The Dornish orphans recall Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella as she also sought to hide her heir on a riverboat too. Nymeria's palace is both a Dorne reference and an Arya one as well as a reference to a marriage alliance that brings peace and unity. Nymeria fled dragons and then her people defied them. Tyrion's upcoming Cyvasse game will alter Aegon's path to more resemble Nymeria's. I can't think of any meaning to the pink and green marble for either Dorne or Arya.

Is Tyrion the proverbial parent killer looking for sympathy because he's an orphan? Popped into my head as I was pondering the baptism/rebirth/second childhood angle.

Love the symbolism, literature and mythological references all around. Great stuff everyone!

[Lyanna Stark]

On the theme of ruins and old civilisations, that made me think GRRM has borrowed some influences for JRR Tolkien, who was big on inserting ruins of older civilisations. You cannot read LOTR without picking up on the longing for times past and the glorious civilisations now lost in time, where the buildings where bigger, more beautiful and ever so splendid, and which makes the here and now a bit bland and less in comparison.

Perhaps it's just to add backstory and flavour, but it certainly felt as a bit of a nod to the old Master, especially as Frodo and the Fellowship pass the Argonath while travelling in boats on the Anduin. In ASOIAF we pass Nymeria's palace, in LOTR we pass the monument of Isildur and Anarion.

[Uncat]

Uncat, I agree with Aegon altering the game by establishing Targaryen rule and I think he did it on the behest or influence of others. I think the use of dragons is what the legend of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer warned against as it said in the Jade compendion.

".... Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

The Queens Hand. Dance.

We should probably stay with the Cyvasse for now, where Dragons are the ultimate force, but hard to controll. That´s why you should keep them close, lest someone takes it from you or it goes unchecked.

ETA: According to an SSM, I can´t find right now, there have always been dragons. That means it´s not their existence, that´s the problem, but people trying to put them to their use.

I absolutly agree on the danger. I'm firmly in the camp of those who expect to see the fire dragons brought down by the end of the books.

The thing is, you can only change the game, once you are able to breed so many of them. And - that's the fun part - your game will be changed, too. Because there is a reason, why Valyria was a freehold and not a kingdom. Dragons seem to be bound to one person. That means, sooner or later a dragon king will run out of family members to take care of the dragons and the kingdom will become a oligarchy of dragon lords keeping each other in check. Or, the other way round: If you want to be a dragon king you will only be able to have a few dragons. But a few dragons are not enough to change the game and get it all - Aegon proofed it.

But that is stuff for a different threat.

Anyhow, Lycos, I was wondering, too, why it is th IRON bank, when iron is not the metal of trade but of war. But at least, the ranking is clear: Trade above justice above war. Or: Justice is stronger then war, but trade interests outvalue justice. Very nice, very capitalism :commie:

[Uncat]

Lyanna, your so right there. I love ruins. It makes me ache for the stories behind them.

In LOTR those ruins also augment another feeling: The feeling that the fight those heros fight goes back across centuries but they are the ones who hold it in their hands to finaly end it, so new greatness may rise from the ruins. This rivetrip gives me the same feeling mix with a feeling of "this all happened before and it will all happen again".

Edit:

WoW, this is just wow!

[Lummel]

So you like ruins? Yes? Then it is time for some more!

Tyrion V ADWD

Overview

The Shy Maid sails south running the gauntlet of the stone men. Tyrion makes plain to his fellow travellers that he knows the purpose of the voyage.

Observations

• We experience the fog through the reactions of the characters:Tyrion - whistling in the dark, Halden - rationality and facts, Septa Lemore - piety and faith, Aegon - blustering boldness, Yandry and Ysilla – superstition
  
• “Illyrio has paid Triarch Nyessos enough to own him eight times over” p235 gold dragons failing to conquer?
  
• “Tyrion still had the poison mushrooms...and there were days when he was sore tempted to slip them into Griff's supper” p235 no father figure is safe from Tyrion!
  
• “Just saying a thing does not make it true” p240 – a warning from GRRM?
  

Analysis

Magic

What stood out for me the first time I read this chapter was GRRM's explicit use of magic and for some reason I found the boat repeating its trip under the Bridge of Dream more disturbing than Melisandre birthing the equally magical shadowbaby in ACOK. Magic in ASOIAF is always mysterious, but this was unusually overt. I still feel uncomfortable about the double journey beneath the Bridge of Dream. If you have to drift beneath twice surely it should be the Bridge of Dreams ;) . But maybe that is the point, there is only one dream here.

Greyscale and The Stone Men

Greyscale was introduced in ACOK but is brought more to the fore in ADWD. We have the plagues of Greyscale mentioned in Tyrion II, the business between Val and Shireen and now this. We learn that the disease transforms the sufferers into the living dead, who go mad before, presumably, they become completely petrified. I'm interested in how this fits into the story. Is it just a new threat for our characters to keep us on the edge of our seats or is there some symbolic significance, those who the Gods would destroy they first drive mad and all that? Is there some significance that these outcasts have formed their own society and have a leader of sorts? (What is the basis of leadership amongst the stone men? How hard you are? :laugh: )

“You can buy a man with gold, but only blood and steel will keep him true” p235

I thought this was very interesting coming from Tyrion particularly in the context of the differing Lannister and Stark styles of leadership and as Ragnorak has been drawing out Tyrion's ambiguous attitudes towards them. Inevitably the blood and steel remind me of Bismarck (but then, what doesn't? :uhoh: ) but even more seriously the murder of Kevan at the end of ADWD. To my mind Tyrion is expressing an idea that there has to be a collective blooding to bind people to a cause or to a leader. The group that fights together stays together maybe. With Bismarck in mind maybe blood and steel are standing in for the idea of taking decisive action. Is Tyrion saying that you can buy followers but you have to lead them towards an accomplishment to bind them to you?

This is quite a different take on Varys' riddle which looked at power from the point of view of the follower. The question was what is the intrinsic motivation for a sellsword – gold, god or government, but here the understanding is that the leader has to act to transform a sellsword into a supporter. Something to keep in mind for this and other POVs in ADWD.

“All ruined, all desolate, all fallen” p236

GRRM steps up the imagery of ruins and fallen civilisations that many of you were picking up on in Tyrion IV. The atmosphere of loss and melancholy, also touching on our old impact of the dragon theme is very strong here with once more the stories within stories being brought into play. The boat drifts through the fog and the ruins of former glories emerge suddenly. We see the outer journey parallels Tyrion's inner journey. Rather as in the council chamber scene in Tyrion VIII ACOK the external fog suggests Tyrion's lack of inner clarity and he falls back to thinking of Tysha, the woman he betrayed, Jaime and Tywin “My own father could not love me. Why would you if not for gold?”. This in turn strengthens the melancholy of the chapter only to be dispelled by the burst of action. The parallel of the inner and outer journeys gives me the impression of this being a pilgrimage. The is perhaps a spiritual significance to Tyrion's journey, is it something of a Pilgrim's Progress?

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Ladies and Gentlemen! After Ragnorak posts Tyrion VI I will be starting a spin off thread for the two Jon Connington chapters. My plan is to post the chapters in book order relative to the Tyrion reread so after the Tyrion VI and Tyrion XI posts.

[Uncat]

Yupp, that bridge thing really got me startled. While the othe magic (girls not burning but breeding dragons, women giving birth to shadows, White Walkers and living dead) are - in a way - expected things, this comes so suddenly and so casually. The magoc just happens. If it is initiated by someone, we don't see him but we should fear him. Or is this a reference to Matrix and the dejavu? Is this kind of a moment, when a change happens to the world? Do they maybe cross some kind ancient magical barrier? Is it in the next chapter, that Tyrion spots the shape in the mist, that can only be Drogon hunting?

[Lykos]

Har, ancient magical barrier as the Wall, yes!

[the Scorpion Knight]

to the blood and iron part.

there also the saying: it takes a while till the prussians fire (going back to the fact that the father of frederick II of prussia only reculantly took in war- despite the rampart militarism)

[Winterfellian]

Yupp, that bridge thing really got me startled. While the othe magic (girls not burning but breeding dragons, women giving birth to shadows, White Walkers and living dead) are - in a way - expected things, this comes so suddenly and so casually. The magoc just happens. If it is initiated by someone, we don't see him but we should fear him. Or is this a reference to Matrix and the dejavu? Is this kind of a moment, when a change happens to the world? Do they maybe cross some kind ancient magical barrier?

For some reason what happened at the bridge has always reminded me of Melissandre's saying about the Wall being one of the hinges of the world. Could the bridge of stone be another one of these hinges? As Lummel noted there is certainly an element of magic that is hardly encountered with in comparison with the rest of the magic we see throughout the series and the origin of this magic is as mysterious as the magic (if it is magic of some form) that drives the Others. If so, this would make Tyrion the first character to visit more than one hinge.

When he visited the first of these hinges at the beginning of his arch is interesting to recall that Tyrion never crossed through. Much like with his power and influence at the time of the story Tyrion stood atop of it (and probably pissed on the other side as well ;) ) and from that aloof perspective contemplated it all. Now that he has been brought low he is forced not only to literally crossed under the hinge but he also has to fight for the right to do so. He has to prove himself worthy. Traveling with comfort on top of the bridge is no longer an option.

Furthermore, hinges are part of a door and the door is an element with a dual function. It can connect 2 spaces as much as it can close one from the other. It is an object that can create both unity and isolation. Could this mean that Tyrion himself will be the door that connects the different places on which the story develops? I wouldn't be surprised since he has been all over the place, the north, Vale, KG and now he is on his way to Dany with none other than another contender for the IT. Without meaning to Tyrion has become the common denominator in all these different factions and his influence, much like a door, can serve to the purpose of unifying or isolating.

[Ragnorak]

Great job, Lummel.

This is a chapter where the mood seems to be the message. It recalls the ever rational Tyrion as he stares out at the Haunted Forest from on top of the Wall and a deep inner fear shakes his intellect.

Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.

...

“I believe you,” Tyrion said, but what he thought was, And who will go find you? He shivered.

It also helps set the feeling of dread later for Cotter Pyke's "dead things in the water." With all of our other examples of magic there has been a magician with a (mostly) known intent. Here there seems to be a malevolence in the land as if it remembers and resents what was lost. This city or its people have not gone gently into that good night.

The fog here and the stone men definitely bring the mists of the Others and wights to mind. The tale of the Shouded Lord bears a resemblance to the Nights King too. In case we miss those connections we've got Haldon to remind us.

“The dead do not rise,” insisted Haldon Halfmaester

Also an ironic line from the man educating a dead prince.

The boat they encounter is called the Kingfisher. There's the somewhat literal task they have of making Aegon king, but it made me think of the Fisher King with all the spiritual aspects that have been pointed out surrounding Tyrion's journey.

[Elba the Intoner]

Great! Just when I thought I was getting caught up in this thread you move on to the next chapter. So, to go back to the last one for a minute, I noted that the real reason Tyrion did not want to bath in the river was because he did not want Septa Lemore to see him naked. She specifically is the one he wants to avoid being naked in front of and when he gets thrown in the river and needs to get out of his wet clothes, he only does so after Lemore goes below deck with Young Griff. As she is the representative of the formal religion of the seven on the boat, I find this very telling. When you are naked in front of someone it makes you vulnerable and he doesn't want to appear vulnerable before the representative of the religious faith that we have already seen Tyrion most closely associates with. Also when you are naked, you cannot hide behind something, usually clothes, and you are fully exposed. This brought to mind Milady of York's essay on Jaime that she just posted in the Pawn to Player thread, when she is talking about Jaime's dream on the Weirwood stump. I've put the relevant part in quotes below.

This is a dream filled with rebirth imagery and foreshadowing, which requires longer and complex interpretations; but for the purpose of this analysis, the things that stand out are that he’s naked in front of the people he finds there, living and dead, and what they stand for. Nakedness in itself is common in dreams and too easy to interpret through lots of theoretical lenses, but this begs a particular angle of interpretation as he’s naked in the crypts of Casterly Rock, the place of his birth, and is accompanied by a woman who’s the only one to stay by his side and champion him; all of which favours the Jungian view over others: the persona—the outward image/the mask presented to the world—is tied to clothes, so if you are stripped of them and presented bare, it means you’ve been also stripped of your persona because the protection it gave was inadequate. Without his clothes in Lannister colours in the seat of the Lannister family, stripped of the self-delusion that’s a trademark in this branch, Jaime has to face three Lannisters that have shaped his life: a. Tywin, who wished he be Jaime the Young Lion first and then Lord Jaime of Casterly Rock; b. Cersei, who wanted him to be Ser Jaime of the Kingsguard so he stayed unmarried and with her as only lover for life, and c. Joffrey, the son that doesn’t know him as father. Without the gold armour of Ser Jaime the Kingslayer, stripped of the self-deceit that he’s construed around this in order to reconcile his disillusionment with knighthood, he’s to face Brienne, almost a beauty and almost a knight, and realise that he’s a beautiful man with a ugly conscience and a knight with no honour. Without the white armour and cloak of the Kingsguard, stripped of self-justification, he’s to face the judgment of his Sworn Brothers and Prince Rhaegar, and own the guilt of his perceived failure to protect the royal children and the Crown Princess and being an oathbreaker. All this indicates the need of reshaping this persona (by either reincorporating older elements lying buried in the deepest layers of the self or creating new ones), which should follow in short, as the first step is to go back to Brienne, and take her out of the bear pit and away with him.

I think this could apply to Tyrion here as well as we see him taking on a mummer's role by hiding his true identity, by coming up with the fake back story of being in a mummer's troupe, and he even takes pleasure in doing some mummer's tricks like the cartwheel, and gets to wear motley type clothing that Lemore has made for him. Tyrion is still not ready to face the judgement of the seven yet and still needs to hide behind his motley persona that he has created for himself.

[Blisscraft]

I will need to look further, however,this chapter echos Eliot's The Waste Land: from the fog to the Fisher King (Kingfisher) inversion to "fear death by water" (as a "medium" (Madame Sosostris "with a wicked pack of cards") to contaminate one with greyscale, "Those are pearls that were his eyes") to Unreal City to "These fragments I have shored against my ruins." Also, there is something very (Shelly) Ozymandias about all of this rack and ruin: "Look upon my works ye mighty and dispair."

[Lykos]

Blisscraft, I´m linking to The Waste Land , since I cannot be the only one who hasn´t read it, till now. I´m always a bit overenthused when learning something new, but I see a lot of themes of the whole of Martins story touched in Eliot´s poem.

Is Young Griff comparable to Hyacinth? That would be some foreboding.