Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Elba the Intoner]

Ack! Are we on Tyrion II ADWD already? I haven't had much of a chance to post the last couple of weeks but I've been trying to keep up on my phone. Yesterday I caught up on the PtP thread and today I am hoping to catch up here. Anyway, I hope it's okay to go back a bit, but I wanted to comment on the discussion of how there are all these associations with how Tyrion is always being shit on. There is mention in Tyrion I ADWD about how his father still managed to shit on him, "Even in his dying, he found a way to shit on me." This image does seem to be associated with the Lannisters a lot, as was mentioned up thread, and with Tyrion in particular. So, I thought I'd refer to another time this is brought up that no one else mentioned yet. When the Hound runs into Polliver and the Tickler at the Inn and learns that Sansa was married to Tyrion but then disappeared after Joff's death, he says how she shit on the imp's head and flew off. What imagery!

Great job Butterbumps on handling a lot of dense material! Now I am off to read the Dance chapters.

[Ragnorak]

Very nice, Lummel.

The Mother/Father

I don't think I ever payed much attention to the parental imagery surrounding Illyrio if I ever made note of it. Illyrio is giving Tyrion everything he really wanted from Tywin. He is praised for his wit and intellect. He is being given important work. Illyrio is trusting him with a task in his own stead in a manner Tywin never did. There is also more maternal imagery around Illyrio.

The litter swayed side to side, a soothing movement that made him feel as if he were a child being rocked to sleep in his mother’s arms. Not that I would know what that was like. Silk pillows stuffed with goose down cushioned his cheeks. The purple velvet walls curved overhead to form a roof, making it pleasantly warm within despite the autumn chill outside.

Not just the baby rocking image but a mother's soft touch of silk and goose down and protective warmth as well. Is there something to Tyrion making a pilgrimage to Dany the Mother?

They share food and conversation. Tyrion's love is recognized and identified with. Illyrio is even telling him that new information may require him to improvise and that he trusts in Tyrion's skill. Illyrio also gives Tyrion honest counsel on the situation for the most part. He holds back on the Aegon part but that won't matter until they reach Dany at which point Tyrion will learn that truth as well. There is an inclusiveness that was lacking with Tywin's Red Wedding and post Red Wedding schemes. It was LF that received the treatment Illyrio bestows on Tyrion.

Another mortal error. “Then I shall do likewise.”

This is what was lacking in Tyrion's exchanges with Tywin back in SoS-- the scrutiny, the false flattery, and his own true feelings held close. Still the nature of Tyrion wheedling more out of Illyrio is not unlike his past exchanges with Tywin.

The Blackfyre Angle

I think we can take Illyrio at face value when he says

"I told you, my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay."

It is vague enough to be truthful to Tyrion without revealing anything which also matches the style we see with Varys. Based on what we know of Illyrio, Varys is his only friend and Varys and Serra are the only ones that he might have real affection for. That would make this Aegon endeavor a debt to Varys and/or Serra. Combine that with the Blackfyre male line being ended and you get the female line still surviving making Serra the potential Blackfyre mother of Aegon. The boy clothes we saw last chapter that are referenced again this chapter fit with the theory too. If putting Aegon on the throne is in fact repaying a debt of friendship to Varys that points to him having a Blackfyre connection as well.

I grew so respectable that a cousin of the Prince of Pentos let me wed his maiden daughter, whilst whispers of a certain eunuch’s talents crossed the narrow sea and reached the ears of a certain king. A very anxious king, who did not wholly trust his son, nor his wife, nor his Hand, a friend of his youth who had grown arrogant and overproud.

“Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra.”

What happened to Illyrio's first wife that closed the palace gates to him? I suppose if she died and he wed a known mistress that might be scandalous enough. This places Varys invitation to Kings Landing at a point near to Illyrio's marriage to a Princess of Pentos and Serra. If Serra is a Blackfyre and Aegon is the son of Illyrio/Serra I have two theories. One is that as information brokers Varys and Illyrio knew of Steffon Baratheon's trip to Essos in search of a Valyrian bride of high birth for Rhaegar. Illyrio marrying into Pentos nobility puts his offspring into this category if he has a Valyrian descent wife. His comments on lusting for Dany here as well as his admirable comments about Dany back in GoT hint that Serra might have been such.

Assuming Varys went to KL with an agenda that is consistent with placing Aegon on the throne, he may have been using his position to attempt to arrange a royal marriage for Serra to Rhaegar or more long term a royal marriage between Serra's children and royal heirs that would place Serra's descendants on the Iron Throne. Another possibility is the baby swap. The Aegon baby swap story may just be a variation on the original plan to baby swap one of Serra's children with the royal heir.

I don't like the baby swap because it runs counter to the speech to Kevan about being raised to rule and I find it hard to imagine a mother giving up her infant-- maybe if she were a slave and a whore in Lys but not living adored in Illyrio's manse. The Blackfyre angle does explain the mysteries around Varys's motivations better than any other theory I've seen. It explains his seeming Targ loyalist actions combined with ignoring then using Viserys and Dany. His claims of being for the realm and Aegon being more fit to rule echo the original arguments of the Blackfrye conflict. His "for the children" and talk of children suffering most would make sense as a reference to the fate of his own family and childhood. Not married to this just the most complete jigsaw puzzle I can imagine with the few pieces we have.

The Sphinx and Dragons

The Sphinx as a reference to Dany seems clear. The one carried off by the Dothraki could be Viserys as it seems a rather unlikely fate for Aegon or Jon currently. The last pair of sphinxes was we saw in Tyrion was when Tyrion entered to give Cersei the letter and claim his position as Hand. Illyrio is dispatching him on a similar task. Is there merit to Cersei being a sphinx and the missing one being a dead Tywin?

Here's all the sphinx references for teh first three books. Feast has Alleras so they're plentiful throughout that book.

The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

The councillor Ned liked least, the eunuch Varys, accosted him the moment he entered.

The room was as splendid as any that Sansa had ever seen. She stared in awe at the carved wooden screen and the twin sphinxes that sat beside the door.

...

Sansa had hoped Joffrey might be with her. Her prince was not there, but three of the king’s councillors were. Lord Petyr Baelish sat on the queen’s left hand, Grand Maester Pycelle at the end of the table, while Lord Varys hovered over them, smelling flowery.

“I can see where Joffrey learned his courtesies.” Tyrion paused to admire the pair of Valyrian sphinxes that guarded the door, affecting an air of casual confidence. Cersei could smell weakness the way a dog smells fear.

Tyrion rested his hand on the head of the sphinx beside the door. “One parting request. Kindly make certain no harm comes to Sansa Stark. It would not do to lose both the daughters.”

Varys is present during all these sphinx scenes. Sansa has two references as well. One with her being in awe of the sphinxes and then Tyrion resting his hand on the sphinx head and talking about losing both daughters could mirror the lone sphinx here. I'd want to see more connections before seeing Sansa in the sphinx but Sansa is mentioned in the only "interaction" with a sphinx.

There's lots of dragon talk here and there's probably a consistent thread that could be put together. The main thing that struck me is that Tyrion dreams of dragons which is what he tells Jon he no longer does back in GoT. It is a hint at some recaptured childhood innocence amidst the darkness. It probably fits with the spiritual rebirth we talked about after the Blackwater too. He is on a religious pilgrimage of sorts to seek out dragons, the power he once dreamed about to free him from his father who still haunts him from beyond the grave.

I don't have insights currently but I can't not mention the horse shit on the road after Lummel's Lannister scatology.

[Elba the Intoner]

OK, some quick observations from Tyrion I. Butterbumps your quote here is pretty much spot on:

He continues to get thoroughly drunk until they arrive at port and Tyrion kicks and screams as he’s forced into a wine cask: “He was lifted and lowered, rolled and stacked, upended and righted and rolled again.” I think this short trip in a cask is something of a microcosm describing Tyrion’s journey since perhaps even before aGoT—he’s been blinded and manipulated into a kind of drifting, perhaps futile existence, suffocated by the lack of control he both been given and allows himself.

That does seem to be how his whole life has gone up to now. However, the point about being stuck in a barrel in particular seems to be a comment to me on Tyrion's mental and emotional state at this point. He is literally at the bottom of the barrel or the dregs that no one wants. He's at his lowest point that we've ever seen him and believes that there is no one who would want him.

Later at Tyrion's dinner with Illyrio, Illyrio says to him, "I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince keeps a pride in his

menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?” Tyrion rejects that offer. Foreshadowing for the fighting pit in Meereen perhaps?

[Blisscraft]

Yellow/Gold - This stuck out to me in the first chapter, but it is also prevalent in the second. Yellow is a color associated with cheer, joy, sunshine, butterfly wings, butter, gold, and cheese. It suggests richness and riches, brightness and illumination, intelligence and insight. It is sunshine. It is the color of optimism.

It is no wonder that the chapter begins with: "They departed Pentos by the Sunrise Gate, though Tyrion Lannister never glimpsed the sunrise." Tyrion is missing the illumination at this point. As Tyrion was in the boat and at the walled manse, he is now again contained within the womb of Illyrio's carriage. He is still journeying confined with Illyrio and all of his brilliant color.

Illyrio is basically a big yellow man with yellow beard and yellow teeth. He talks of the Golden Company coming to Dany's aid. He seems to thrive in the color yellow/gold. It is more than for gold, the precious metal or for cheese (both of which are usually yellow). Illyrio seems a bit like Midas. However, there is a downside to all of this lovely color. Yellow is a color of aging, like old paper; of disease, like jaundice; and lies, as in yellow journalism. It is the color of piss. It is the color of Fool's Gold, pyrite. It is the color of falsehood, as in all the glitters. . .

The Valyrian Roads - Tyrion is interested in the road. He's heard about them, but has never seen one. When Illyrio gets out to piss, Tyrion takes a good look at the road he's travelling. It is a "ribbon of fused stone raised a half a foot above the ground." It doesn't get muddy and have ruts. It's wide and smooth and easy. It's enduring and has lasted long after the men who built it, but is too slow going for Tyrion as he travels with Illyrio.

Hands - There is the little ditty at the end of the chapter about hands of gold . . . But what struck me was the fact that Illyrio still has Serra's hands in his bedchamber. He says, "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft. . ." :ack:

[Lummel]

This again seems to hint at Tyrion and Barristan taking the Dragons etc to Westeros and siding with Aegon...

I don't think that either dream is anything other than a reflection of Tyrion's state of mind. Bittersteel is dead (long dead), Tywin is dead, Tyrion only has one head. That points to symbolism rather than the future to me.

...It's interesting that at the end of the first chapter, Illyrio confronts Tryion with their discovery, but does not take them from Tyrion...

and teasing Tyrion over them with an edible joke.

Ack! Are we on Tyrion II ADWD already? I haven't had much of a chance to post the last couple of weeks but I've been trying to keep up on my phone...

Yes we're cracking the internet whip over you!

...I don't think I ever payed much attention to the parental imagery surrounding Illyrio if I ever made note of it. Illyrio is giving Tyrion everything he really wanted from Tywin. He is praised for his wit and intellect. He is being given important work. Illyrio is trusting him with a task in his own stead in a manner Tywin never did. There is also more maternal imagery around Illyrio...

I think this is an interesting aspect, something that we saw to some extent also with Oberyn and Garlan Tyrell. All these external people are providing the validation and support that Tyrion didn't get from his own Father. But these are all people with agendas and not agendas that respect the sanctity of Casterly Rock. I'm reminded here of Lord Tytos who Genna describes as a younger son and eager for the approval of others. But I think that Tyrion isn't quite so eager and for all the praise he isn't being clever either. His thinking about Myrcella was just pointless spite.

Yellow/Gold - This stuck out to me in the first chapter, but it is also prevalent in the second. Yellow is a color associated with cheer, joy, sunshine, butterfly wings, butter, gold, and cheese. It suggests richness and riches, brightness and illumination, intelligence and insight. It is sunshine. It is the color of optimism.

...

Illyrio is basically a big yellow man with yellow beard and yellow teeth. He talks of the Golden Company coming to Dany's aid. He seems to thrive in the color yellow/gold. It is more than for gold, the precious metal or for cheese (both of which are usually yellow). Illyrio seems a bit like Midas. However, there is a downside to all of this lovely color. Yellow is a color of aging, like old paper; of disease, like jaundice; and lies, as in yellow journalism. It is the color of piss. It is the color of Fool's Gold, pyrite. It is the color of falsehood, as in all the glitters. . .

For me this ties in with the images of nurturing gone awry in Tyrion I ADWD. The associations are on the surface positive but GRRM is undercutting the impression at the same time. It's like the coin with the king's head and death on the two sides. The lasting impression is that you should take Illyrio at face value.

[Ragnorak]

I like the catch that the mushrooms are red and white like Bloodraven/Ghost I'm just not sure what to make of it beyond a hint that Bloodraven is watching.

One of the significant aspects of Tyrion's dream is that his rageful head is the one he experiences the dream through. He observes his remorseful head (too late) but never experiences the dream from within it. I'm with Lummel on the "state of mind" take. He may do something violent in a rage that he'll regret but that we don't need to make sacrifices to the Oracle to read those tea leaves.

@Elba

The irony in Sandor's "shit on his head and flew away" comment is that this is what Tyrion was dreading with the dove's in the pie at the wedding. Good catch though. Poor Tyrion is the one who gets shit on even in other POVs. The Poliver/Tickler scene you mention reminded me of Arya. There's been some speculation that Illyrio might end up being an assassination target for Arya. For some reason Tyrion's peanut bladder observation struck me as the type of thing Arya would spot and it felt so inordinately ominous when I read it.

@Blisscraft

Love the Yellow observations. My initial reaction was that the cheerful ones fit Illyrio and the more negative ones fit the Yellow Whale but I don't think that fits-- it was informative about my impressions of the two though. With all the yellow around Illyrio we should watch out for parallels with the Yellow Whale.

I think next chapter he mentions the roads as a Wonder of the World. With Shae, Tywin, Tyrion's time during Clash and even Jaime those Serra hands are frought with potential meaning. Somehow the severed hands of the dead plague victim make it hard to see past. For me the serial killer trophy angle feel is hard to put aside too even though I doubt Martin was goling after anything like that. The bumping noses memory after the song is symbolic. Tyrion's nose is gone. That's a piece of innocence he can never relive even by merely going through the motions.

[Lyanna Stark]

Since I am slower than slow, here's a small comment on Tyrion I:

We get Tyrion’s version of his escape, which seems fairly calm and almost lucid and businesslike. Tyrion thinks back on his rationale in loosing the bolt: “If I had not loosed, he would have seen my threats were empty. He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms. He was rising when I killed him.” I find this extremely complex in particular. On one hand, the fact that Tyrion has learned to take no half measures is very much his father’s lesson, but the very reason he chose to confront his father is very un-Tywin-like; it was about being torn from a woman he loved, not caring she was too low-born for a Lannister.

I love this quote together with how Jaime thinks back on Tywin lecturing them on how love didn't make anyone rich or fed etc. yet love and denied love was Tywin's undoing. Love may not nourish you physically, it may not give you financial security, nor power, but it does give you something else, intangible perhaps, but also very important.

It feels here that "as he once took Tysha from my arms" echoes not only of how Tyrion was denied Tysha's love, but how Tywin himself always denied him love. I also got a sense of Tyrion really wishing for that missing woman's love that could have been his mother's which he never got to experience. Perhaps it was the choice of words, "took Tysha from my arms", it's the inverse of the mother role: there a baby is taken from a mother's arms, but here the mother substitute, Tysha, was taken from Tyrion's arms.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job Lummel

As to the Oedipus parallel, Oedipus kills the Father, meets up with a Sphinx and then marries the Mother. One of the identities of Dany is as Mother to her freed slaves and dragons.

Illyrio says he found Serra in Lys, where Pycelle said Varys was born, so Serra could be related to Varys.

This is Andalos, my friend. The land your Andals came from.

and another where someone had chiseled the seven-pointed star of the new gods upon a boulder. Petyr said that marked one of the places the Andals had landed when they cam across the sea to wrest the Vale from the First Men.

Tyrion takes on the alias Hugor Hill after the legendary king of the Andals. Tyrion passes through Andalos, and this foreshadows him revisiting the Vale. Tyrion will have Dany land in the Vale, possibly in the Fingers.

[Lummel]

...Hands - There is the little ditty at the end of the chapter about hands of gold . . . But what struck me was the fact that Illyrio still has Serra's hands in his bedchamber. He says, "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft. . ." :ack:

...I think next chapter he mentions the roads as a Wonder of the World. With Shae, Tywin, Tyrion's time during Clash and even Jaime those Serra hands are frought with potential meaning. Somehow the severed hands of the dead plague victim make it hard to see past. For me the serial killer trophy angle feel is hard to put aside too even though I doubt Martin was goling after anything like that...

Ah - it's Tyrion's song, but hands of gold are always cold. Is this a bizarre memento of an emotionally significant relationship? Such an odd thing to say in any circumstances, that you keep your dead spouses hands in your bedroom...

Since I am slower than slow, here's a small comment on Tyrion I:

...

I love this quote together with how Jaime thinks back on Tywin lecturing them on how love didn't make anyone rich or fed etc. yet love and denied love was Tywin's undoing. Love may not nourish you physically, it may not give you financial security, nor power, but it does give you something else, intangible perhaps, but also very important...

aye, aye, you're slow enough for two! May we talk about spiritual or emotional nourishment? That is what both Cersei and Tyrion want but don't get, but it is what the Starks have and apparently what The Ned managed to share with his people.

[Fire Eater]

“Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of the Blackfyres”

Interesting that he said it was the male line of Blackfyre that ended, we are given nothing about the female line.

Illyrio and Tyrion have blackberry wine and then blackberries and cream. The Celts regarded blackberries as sacred, with the harvest-ready blackberries representing death but the small seeds promising the hope of spring and rebirth.

There is also the legend that the blackberry bush was once beautiful, but was cursed by Lucifer when he fell from heaven into the bush. Varys can be Lucifer, given the inference from the Arya chapter, with Illyrio being the blackberry bush, as he was once handsome until after he met Varys and grew rich, he lost his beauty as he overindulged in food and pleasures from his wealth.

[Uncat]

Lummel, you've managed to elevate "shit" to an intellectual discourse-- bravo! The agriculture vs gold stuff is absolutely fantastic. Something in there made me think of Hamlet and his talk of the King > worm > fish > man eating cycle.

A quick note on Lannisters, shit and gold.

If you pick up on the shit=food equation, there is a basic sin in how the shit is treated in most of the shit refereces: It is wasted and played with instead of being put to use properly.

This makes the shit thing another symbol for the Lannisters hubrys. They digg their riches from the earth, which basicaly means, they take a shortcut from the hard way of getting somewhere by growing and hedging and caring (and getting your hands dirty in a good way).

The Lannisters are placed up and away on their castle in the clouds. They live on an infertile rock full of gold far removed from the fertile mother earth. Actually I seem to remeber that the ancients in greece viewed mining as kind of raping mother earth and violently ripping things out of her while growing food was view as the natural and good way to make a living. Quite consistend with the Lannister way of dealing with the Roverlands.

So it is not just about the Lannisters being full of shit and hating each other to a childish way (smearing things and people with shit is not very grown up). They also deem themselves aboth the ways of nature looking for easy riches and wasting the real riches the earth has to offer.

And that reminds me of the ironmen, who also try to shortcut nature and laughed at the idea of a queen who would take them back to the decent wa of living by farming and growing. I Guess that Kingsmoot was actually of a parting of ways as Heracles experienced it: Play you power to gain riches that you didn't create and be doomed or go down the hard way by living according to the will of the gods and get elevated in the end. But I'm getting derailed here.

One last thought, though. Contrast the shit wasting Lannisters digging gold from a barren rock which isolates them from mother earth to the how the Starks are painted. They sit on a hill, within the land and they do it the hard way, getting their hands dirty in a good way.

Bet, The Ned never wasted a good shit.

Ok, not reaaaly quick, that note :)

[Lummel]

...This makes the shit thing another symbol for the Lannisters hubrys. They digg their riches from the earth, which basicaly means, they take a shortcut from the hard way of getting somewhere by growing and hedging and caring (and getting your hands dirty in a good way).

The Lannisters are placed up and away on their castle in the clouds. They live on an infertile rock full of gold far removed from the fertile mother earth. Actually I seem to remeber that the ancients in greece viewed mining as kind of raping mother earth and violently ripping things out of her while growing food was view as the natural and good way to make a living. Quite consistend with the Lannister way of dealing with the Roverlands...

"A coin is as dangerous as a sword in the wrong hands." His uncle Kevan looked at him oddly. "Not to us, surely. The gold of Casterly Rock..." "...is dug from the ground. Littlefinger's gold is made from thin air, with a snap of his fingers." Tyrion III ASOS

Ho, ho, what with the Squirrel people getting upset over trees being felled and Lannister with Ironborn as rapists of mother nature we are close to an environmental reading of ASOIAF :)

But I think there is a lot in what you say Uncat, the Lannisters gold is 'clean', quick, a shortcut and a substitute for working by the sweat of your brow, why build up loyalty when you can buy it. But the approach is flawed, just as Lann the clever stole casterly rock so the lannister steal wealth from the earth and as Tyrion experienced when the gold runs out, you have no friends. For me the greek notion of raping the earth does sit very well with the lannisters and their difficult family relationships. Tyrion kills the mother through his birth, the lannisters destroy the lands that nurture life.

Illyrio makes an interesting contrast in that he acknowledges that a contract writ in blood is stronger than one bought with gold, even though he is no stranger to teh power of money.

[Uncat]

And yet it actually sometimes feels like that. If you go along with nature, lay low in your hills when winter strikes and the White Walkers are about, if you don't burn the trees but talk to them, if you have a gripp for the land and don't detache yourself from the roots and if you accept the magic nature of the world, you seem to do best in that world. Bad luck for the big bad corporate guys from Lannister Ltd. and Ironborn Industries. The trees will have business with them (how do you make that little smily-guy that hops around waving his banner?)

[Uncat]

"A coin is as dangerous as a sword in the wrong hands."  His uncle Kevan looked at him oddly.  "Not to us, surely. The gold of Casterly Rock..." "...is dug from the ground.  Littlefinger's gold is made from thin air, with a snap of his fingers." Tyrion III ASOS

But getting back to the hands thing: I love it, how LF creates gold out of thin air, while the Lord of Lannister needs to shit in order to get some riches. Nice contrast between the two and I guess one more hint, that LF in some way is a Tywin working a parallel world. Like Tywin he is all powerfull and his power is based on his riches and he is as roothless as Tywin, when it comes to gaining power. But while Tywin exerts power in a quite visible way by threatening, fighting and killing, Littlefinger exerts his power in an invisible way. Tywin needs to shit and digg. Littlefinger needs to snipp.

But now I'm seriously derailing and then I have to pick up my boy from kindergarden, too.

[Blisscraft]

About those hands - I brought the hands up because hands seem to "touch" (sorry, Lummel) every major character in one way or another. Whether its as Hand of the King, a burned hand, a left hand, a missing hand(s), the ability to create with hands, such as making a hat or stitching, the images are pervasive and powerful. I recently returned from a trip to Nevada. While there, I went hiking in a state park called "The Valley of FIre." There is a particular trail that is covered with petroglyphs. The petroglyphs are ancient and could be as much as 3,000 years old. Along with all of the drawings of bighorn sheep and spears and stick people are hands.

Hands can make and unmake, bless and curse, kill and cure. Hands perform communication beyond speech supplying emphasis, nuance, or enhanced meaning. As for Illyrio and Tyrion, the loss of loving hands is a tie between them. Perhaps Illyrio is simply refering this pathetic and disgusting trophy of his lost love as a means to further ingratiate himself to Tyrion or maybe it is a suggestion about Illyrio's character: he cannot let go. He must hold on to the hands that can not longer return his caress.

About the road - In the first book, Tyrion traveled the "Kings Road" to the north. As noted above he was free wheeling and out in the open on that road. Now he is encased and contained on a journey heading east toward the dawn on an ancient smooth, sophisticated, and superiorly built road.

Messenger - Once again, as in the other books, Tyrion has been chosen to be a message/messenger. Illyrio complains he cannot travel to Volantis to meet Dany, so Tyrion is bringing the message on his behalf.

Mushrooms - Ragonorak, mushrooms have a certain special quality. After a rain, appear out of nowhere. They have an element of suprise to them. Yesterday, they weren't there, but today: Voila! a feast for the belly or an intoxicant to open the doors of perception or a stealthly means to disable an opponent, temporarily or permanently.

Tyrion finds this little suprise package of seven springing up through a cracked tile. This suggests a life force more powerful than any man made decoration or invention. That the seven mushrooms are colored like the weirwood trees and Ghost seems to be significant because they are of the old gods. Tyrion only counts the number and therefore finds their significance in the Seven. But, Tyrion's path is broader than that one faith. For Tryion, they will become a means of liberation, not today, but by the end of the book. The mushrooms will permit his transformation to true freedom.

[Lummel]

And yet it actually sometimes feels like that. If you go along with nature, lay low in your hills when winter strikes and the White Walkers are about, if you don't burn the trees but talk to them, if you have a gripp for the land and don't detache yourself from the roots and if you accept the magic nature of the world, you seem to do best in that world. Bad luck for the big bad corporate guys from Lannister Ltd. and Ironborn Industries. The trees will have business with them (how do you make that little smily-guy that hops around waving his banner?)

I think fantasy because it is a conservative genre lends itself very well to an environmental message, but it does seem explicit in ASOIAF, the course of wisdom is living in touch with your environment: "winter is coming" afterall! I do think of the book as having several plot layers, one is the politics and beneath that the magical layer which shows through here and there. I don't know if the environmental layer is part of the magical layer or something seperate again.

Do you mean this little smily guy :commie: ?

...Messenger - Once again, as in the other books, Tyrion has been chosen to be a message/messenger. Illyrio complains he cannot travel to Volantis to meet Dany, so Tyrion is bringing the message on his behalf...

Great that you've reminded us of that :)

Tyrion is both messenger and message here I feel (as always). There are bundles of messages in sending Tyrion - the queens enemies are fighting amongst themselves, the power of Varys and Illyrio, the means to capture the kingdom, more maybe as well as a message that he bears from Illyrio (with teh best wishes of many readers) of come hither dear Queen, we have soldiers and ships for you to invade westeros with

Interesting you see Serra's hands as indicative of Illyrio not being able to let go, which I suppose sums up both Varys' and Illyrio's roles in the Aegon plot, not being able to accept the fall and deposition of the targaryens.

[Uncat]

Tyrion, the messenger... Hermes, the messenger of mighty Zeus wasn't a dwarf. But he sure was a tricksy guy, protector of the travellers, traders but also of decivers and thiefs. And he sure covered a lot of road. Though he had a winged helm or cap and some winged sandals. Quite the opposit to Tyrions meens of traveling. Don't know what to make of this, but it shot trough my head and I had to put it down.

[Lykos]

Blisscraft, I don´t have much time, but wanted to present some quotes to aid your mushroom arguement.

When a king dies, fancies sprout like mushrooms in the dark.

Clash, Chapter 36 Tyrion.

"My sister has mistaken me for a mushroom. She keeps me in the dark and feeds me shit."

Storm, Chapter 4 Tyrion.

And yes I love Tyrion being message & messenger, that´s why I always try to connect him to Hermes messenger of the gods and trickster as Butterbumps! said, but the best thing I found is the play by Euripides.

ETA: I just noticed that I never told you that I thought Tyr - ion is made up of the name of the phoenician city, that has a fortress built on a rock off the shore and is named for this rock (Alexander tried to take it with fire ships, but failed) and ion, which means going in greek and also there is the ionian revolution that lead to the persian attacks on Athens (which was defended by a wooden wall - it´s fleet.).

ETA2: Also, there is power in the Un - i (J)on.

[Elba the Intoner]

I'm confused on how the Blackfyre angle works in regard to what Illyrio seems to want from Dany. He says that Viserys almost undid years of planning in regard to Dany. Do we just accept Illyrio's words that a dragon whether red or back is still a dragon? He clearly wants to put Aegon on the Iron throne, so why did he "support" Dany by, for ex., giving her the dragon's eggs and sending Barristan to her? He's supposedly sending Aegon to meet Dany now so that they can marry. On the other hand, he tells Tyrion here that he believed that Dany wouldn't even survive her time with Drogo. Sending Barristan also seems to go against Aegon (assuming he's a blackfyre) and the backing of the golden company which was founded by Bittersteel who was a Blackfyre supporter, but Barristan killed the last Blackfyre pretender. Am I getting this all straight? If he wants Aegon on the throne, or more specifically, wants a Blackfyre on the throne, then I think he really does not want Dany there. Was he hoping that she wouldn't survive the horselords? I do believe he never thought the dragon's eggs would hatch. But why even have anything to do with Dany and Viserys in the first place?

ETA Another conflict in Illyrio's motivations that I just thought of could be that he does use slaves but Dany is trying to smash the slave trade.

[Lykos]

Elba, that´s really a question too big for me to answer now, but I made a guess in this heated thread, but this needs to be discussed.

I hope I´ll find some time tomorrow.

boig