Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion X.5 ASOS Tyrion/Tysha

We've reached the final chapter of Storm of Swords where Jaime reveals the truth to Tyrion about Tysha. Tysha tends to be a bit of an emotionally charged topic so we'd like to take some time and discuss Tysha/Tyrion before we address the rest of the chapter. In this thread we have been admirably polite and respectful and we've seen some fruitful and enlightening discussions as a result. Let's continue that trend.

We've noted from the very beginning how Martin has used sympathy to align the reader with Tyrion. I've noted elsewhere that he's a sympathy filled enigma of where victimhood ends and personal responsibility starts. Tyrion always has a regret or a positive impulse. His victims always have a glaring unsympathetic facet or there is a larger villain like a Tywin who overshadows Tyrion's role. His foul deeds are shrouded in sympathy and excuses and his good deeds are tainted with self serving motives and failures to follow through. These all impact different readers in quite disparate ways. For me his protection of Sansa and refusal to follow through with Tywin's ordered bedding carries tremendous weight while for others the fact that he agreed to marry Sansa in the first place is inexcusable and his refusal to send her back to Robb undermines his protective actions. These aren't really disagreements. Everyone agrees on what happened. They are variations in where sympathy breaks or the extent to which different readers feel the good overcomes the bad-- or doesn't.

I'd like to pose the question or throw out as food for thought that this may be the entire point behind Tyrion and his rather grey portrayal. Is Martin using the sympathy, the victimhood, the good heart, and the personal shortcomings to create a character that skirts the line between hero and villain?

Jon, our likely hero in this epic fantasy tale, is dressed in black not white. In one of our hero's first on screen leadership lessons we see Maester Aemon telling him about ravens and doves. Jon has blood on his hands up to his wrist and he is personally serving up the feast for crows while Aemon tells him that the Nights Watch prefers ravens. Good leaders will always be the hated and misunderstood ravens and abhorred by godly men like Baelor the Blessed who prefer doves-- thus why our "good guy" wears black. Despite opening the first book with the classic fantasy big bad evil, five books later they are still an aside that most POVs don't even know exist. When Bran comments that Meera's story would be better with the more "classic" element of knights fighting monsters, Jojen responds that sometimes the knights are the monsters. Is this the real theme of the series? Martin gives us Manderly and his Frey Pies which are largely heralded (with me proudly included) as pure concentrated awesome, yet he also gives us rather similar cannibalism in Harrenhal that is just chilling and disturbing. Who are the heroes and who are the monsters and why do they do the same things? Is Tyrion "a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of" the series moral knot as well as the Meereen knot?

To explore this idea I'd like to take a closer look at Tysha, her presentation and her reveal.

As human beings we are moved by stories not statistics. The relief we feel when two unknown miller's children die in place of Bran and Rickon demonstrates this. We don't have their stories so the statistic of two sets of innocent dead boys is not an equal crime to our emotions. The dynamic of the telling of Tysha's tale is similar.

“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet."

A barracks filled with 100 anonymous rapists serves to both escalate the atrocity and diminish Tyrion's role. When the numbers get too big the cost to the individual victim, his or her story, is lost in the enormity and anonymity of the numbers. A similar thing happens here with the perpetrators. Were it only Ilyn Payne ordered to rape and then Tyrion we would have names, faces, and stories behind those involved. Tyrion's role would come across as more personal. But the story we're given is Tyrion's not Tysha's. She isn't even given a name in this first telling. The sympathetic fleeing and orphaned crofter's daughter is a lie to our emotions as it was to Tyrion. Martin steals her story before relaying her punishment. Knowledge of Tyrion's participation comes only after we have already been overwhelmed by this horror and had him cry to match our sorrow. The nature of the delivery and Bronn's reaction of saying he would kill the man that did that to him declare Tyrion the victim and Tywin the monster.

Tysha's status here as a deceiver of Tyrion matters a great deal. It has nothing to do with her deserving anything as a punishment. It gives her an ounce of responsibility in her own fate that taints the purity of her victim status. It is the difference between a mother whose child is killed because she stopped to buy milk at a bad time and one whose child is killed as result of her own minor transgression like shoplifting or having an affair. It is a fate no one deserves yet her own sin, however minor, will always separate her from the purely innocent victim. It also matters because the Jaime reveal cleanses her of any responsibility and returns her story.

Tysha becomes Layna, the innkeeper's daughter from Chiswyck's tale that Arya overhears. The elements are quite similar. We have a purely innocent girl who is raped by Lannister guardsmen with money forced on her to declare her a prostitute. There is a squire that Chiswyck wants to lose his virginity much like Jaime's lie to Tyrion. She is thirteen which is Tyrion's age during the marriage as well as Sansa's age during their later marriage. Gregor demands change while Tywin forces Tyrion to pay extra but the twisted insult of the change in money is the same. In Chiswyck's tale we see and know the perpetrators. We've learned their stories through Arya and have names and faces to go with the criminals. It is presented with all of the horrors in the forefront that the original Tysha tale's presentation muted in its delivery. On our first read Tysha's deceit obfuscates the direct parallel but on reflection after the reveal or on a reread it is perfectly clear. The effect is to present us this parallel twice-- both with and without Tysha's ounce of responsibility.

The entirety of literary intent prior to this has been to declare Tyrion a victim so the normal conclusion would be that this is Martin's intent and worldview. After Jaime's reveal that goes out the window. While on one hand he is adding a new level of victimhood to Tyrion, he is also stripping away the old victim status and replacing Tyrion the victim with Tysha. With her story restored the impact of the original telling is reversed. The statistical horror of the number of rapists is overshadowed by the very personal and incomprehensibly cruel rape by Tyrion. Tyrion is realizing that he has been the same monster that he just denied being at his own trial. He is being revealed as a monster and a bigger victim with the same stroke. Have we been set up here? Have we moved from a clear authorial worldview of "victim" to a question being quite subtly and artfully posed to the readers-- "victim or monster?" I don't think we're all supposed to agree and that I suspect is Martin's whole point.

To give us a segue from last chapter:

Prince Oberyn laughed. “The gods defend the innocent. You are innocent, I trust?”

“Only of killing Joffrey,” Tyrion admitted.

Oberyn is killed, and thus Tyrion condemned, the moment he extracts a confession from Gregor for raping someone at Tywin's command-- the very crime for which Tyrion is about to fully understand just how guilty he truly is.

The purpose here is to discuss Tyrion/Tysha through the end of Storm of Swords to give that topic its own dedicated discussion time. I put this out for consideration but it isn't by any means supposed to limit the scope or confine the discussion. By all means discuss your own thoughts and insights about the impact of the reveal on Tyrion and how it shapes his story and his character. What we do want to limit is the type of thing we've seen derail so many other Tyrion threads. Not everyone is going to agree here. That's fine. Much of this is really about how the story impacts different readers. Tyrion seems to be Martin's attempt at putting the reader's human heart in conflict with itself and how different people resolve that conflict helps contribute to our understanding.

[butterbumps!]

I like how you phrase this, and I agree though to a certain extent. I know Tyrion often gets compared with Jon in this instance due to the advice he offered Jon when they first met so I tried wrapping my mind around the dynamics of how a person can avoid becoming a victim of his own identity, in this case bastard and/or dwarf. I know that the strength to do this must ultimately come from within the person but I can’t help but wonder how much external motivation and nurture play a part to bring this on. Jon had by far a better childhood that Tyrion in terms of acceptance and love and had the added motivation of Donal Noye’s advice at the Night Watch. Despite this, Jon is ultimately responsible for not letting his status as bastard define him, just as Tyrion does have the last word when it comes to letting his dwarfism define him. But a part of me wonders if Tyrion was ever offered an external motivation to move past his dwarfism or if he had a better childhood his condition wouldn’t define him as much as it does now so I think is unfair to lay all the blame in him. Yes, Tyrion lets his dwarfism become his identity. But how much of this is his own fault? (and like I wrote earlier, he has the last word in this, so he's not innocent also) How much is Tywin's? How much is Westerosi society in general?

You know, that's a good point-- is it basic human nature to be more likely to follow external advice rather than conclusions one has come up with themselves? I hadn't intended to really draw comparisons between the two, only to say that I find it interesting that Tyrion did articulate what I consider the "right" attitude toward his condition early on, yet doesn't follow through on it. It's a good question though-- I think there's something to the fact that external validation or external articulation of something might stick with us a bit better, as the huge market for self-help books would seem to suggest.

I don't know if there's an objectively right way to draw a line between Tyrion's culpability and being a victim. I think that all of our experiences condition us in some way, but I tend to place an individual's reactions to these conditioning factors in the domain of personal responsibility. I think I personally tend to hold Tyrion accountable for his actions, even though his actions are a direct response to his environment. For me, knowing about the factors that condition who Tyrion is helps make his reactions more understandable and his character more developed, but I have trouble with the idea that his reactions are someone else's fault. To say that Tyrion's actions and attitude are someone else's fault I think suggests that there are no other choices he could have made at any point; additionally, I think that this argument can go backwards ad infinitum, continually transferring fault to a past party who conditioned those who come after.

I suppose I see this more as Tyrion's being a product of his environment, or his reactions are a result of his environment, but these reactions are not exactly dictated, in that a choice does exist, even if that choice is extremely difficult to recognize. I don't think that Tyrion was brainwashed or incapacitated in such a way that would remove fault; he does understand the difference between right and wrong, and he does locate opportunities to do the "right" thing, so I think there is an element of choice in his actions that does place culpability largely on himself. The allure of being a Lannister, having riches, power, and the freedom to as he pleases conditions his choices more than anything, I believe. I tend to think that the dwarf-oppression is an excuse he uses to take the "comfortable" and "easy" route as a conscience salve when his real motivations have more of a "wrong" or self-serving nature.

It's interesting that Tyrion's advice to Jon comes so early in the series. At the beginning like this, it posits the idea that Tyrion has the "right" attitude about his condition, and it gives us the expectation that he will be adopting this stance throughout the novels. It makes it seem that all of the subsequent trouble Tyrion faces stem from factors outside his control, oppressing him unfairly, but all the while he rises above it. Yet, that's precisely not what happens.

[Woman of War]

Ten "likes" to your post, Ragnorak. (and to butterbumps too though I tend to agree more with the first.)

I have always wondered, when I read the story for the first time I already had trouble to grasp it, about the age of Tyrion when he met Tysha. I mean a crush on someone at thirteen is perfectly normal but starting a sexual relationship without being somehow encouraged and influenced by older people, well, that's early. And obviously both were completely innocent (I cannnot say "ignorant", this is derogatory, but "innocent" is wrong too since the contrary may as well be "knowing" as "guilty" and the idea of sex should not be linked with any hint of guilt as in patriarchial ideologies and religions). They had no Idea of what fits where, so sweet. Hm, today two cute thirteen year olds have Youtube to make up for their lack of practical knowledge but at that timesetting? Did two thirteen year old kids have "real" sex straightaway? Wouldn't they start slower, with a little touching and feeling? Tysha the girl may have been a little older and perhaps knew more than sweet little Tyrion. :) You may realize it is a mother of two posting here, with all her motherly concern. :) But I myself was an early starter and I had been already fourteen and had read Lady Chatterley's Lover and some other stuff before (no Youporn at that time).

Why is this of any importance? It is because Martin chose the earliest possible age for those events, the age closest to childhood where "real" joyful sex is already possible for two willing partners. The lowest age to do the deed for Tyrion while still being away from full adult responsibility and from being able to stand up for himself against his father. Martin indeed wanted the moral conflict, he wanted his readers to be troubled and torn. This precise age is not so much meant to have an importance to Tyrion. He never gave himself the benefit of doubt and excuse for being so young: "She was my wife" not "we played being man and wife" or " it was a puppy love", he saw himself as fully responsible person, no age mitigation.

The age barely or better said not yet out of childhood is meant for us, is meant to create a conflict of moral evaluation in us readers since Martin is certainly aware that in many countries fourteen is the minimum age for being responsible before the law, there a younger person is a child that can never be a perpetrator but would get counselling and the authorities would be blamed for not having taken him out of his dysfunctional family in time. In other countries children can be sent to prison at ten or even get executed at twelve. So there Martin puposefully entered an irritation into the story by making Tysha and Tyrion so very young, precisely thirteen.

The whole sad event is set up to precipitate the readers into all kinds of moral traps.

And let's not discuss how the boy managed to get a boner under these circumstances. What I have learned from having two young sons is that especially at that age they do not understand their boners either, not that they were giving me any details. One is a fanof ASOIAF himself, he admitted to being confused but then he advised me not to be judgemental about something even those directly concerned do not really understand. Apart from that Martin wanted this to be gross and shocking.

While on one hand he is adding a new level of victimhood to Tyrion, he is also stripping away the old victim status and replacing Tyrion the victim with Tysha. With her story restored the impact of the original telling is reversed. The statistical horror of the number of rapists is overshadowed by the very personal and incomprehensibly cruel rape by Tyrion.

Exactly. And this is what happened inside Tyrion as well. He suddenly sees the enormity of what he did and perceives himself as beyond redeemable, having squashed the only love he might ever get, being the monster everybody sees in him. I guess, for the sake of the story Martin will prove him wrong but this is another topic. Your reflection about that "ounce of responsibility" gone as change of perspective, Ragnarok, was great.

[Ragnorak]

With regards to Tyrion being on trial for being a dwarf I think there are two aspects. He's on trial because the Tyrells murdered Joffrey and with LF's help set him up as the fall guy. He's on trial because Cersei accused him and Tywin refused to protect him. He's on trial for a host of reasons unrelated to his actual guilt or innocence, unrelated to justice. His personal choices and past actions weigh more in this regard than they do at the actual trial. The way the trial plays out is really pre-orchestrated theater much like our council meeting in the beginning of Storm and his dwarfism is very much the center piece there. There's overlap but his choices seem more responsible for him being on trial at all and his dwarfism more involved in his ridicule based conviction-- or at least that's how it strikes me.

Woman of War, I'm very pleased you liked it. I like the picture of innocence you paint. These are two people whose illusions of their first love haven't even been marred by a first fight much less a break up in their pasts to thicken the emotional skin. It as as innocent as you can get without still being a child in Westeros. It heightens the contrast with the horror that follows. It reminds me of Aemon:

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Love is what the heavenly Father fashioned him for and the crime the worldly Father condemed him for.

For reference, our discussion of the chapter where Tyrion first tells the Tysha story starts here.

I have always liked the idea that Tyrion is in a Lannister prison of his own choosing and the Tysha lie is the false premise he accepts that forms the basis for his willing imprisonment. I think it was best described by Tze when she was kind enough to offer her insights on the contrasting images of Tysha and Mord with coins slipping through their fingers.

...[W]e have Tyrion freely choosing, not just to pay his own jailor, but also to give Mord gold instead of silver, as Tyrion knows (from the Tysha incident) that Tywin would have wanted him to do, because "a Lannister always pays his debts". Where once he was forced to "act like a Lannister", Tyrion has now chosen to be a Lannister, has begun doing of his own free will one of the two things that Tywin initially had to force him to do. He hasn't rejected the lesson of his abuser, he's embraced and internalized it. Tyrion paying his own jailor sounds like a pretty strong distillation of the idea that Tyrion has, at this point in AGOT, actively chosen to embrace and perpetuate his own prison (i.e., being a Lannister). Tyrion is trapped, and he's chosen to be trapped; he's trapped even as he's being physically freed from the Eyrie.

In this sense learning the truth about Tysha provides the opportunity to free himself psychologically. It certainly fits with literal imprisonment and struggle for freedom that repeats twice here and occurs again later with hints in Illyrio's manse, Jorah's chaining him and the slavery-- though those to come all lack a trial. This strikes me as the most important part for Tyrion's internal character development for the truths it brings him on many levels. He initially chose love over gold with Tysha and his sharp lesson convinced him to worship gold as a false idol instead. These two Bible quotes come to mind.

They know nothing, understand nothing. Their eyes are shut to all seeing, their heart to all reason. A man who hankers after ashes has a deluded heart and is led astray. He will never free his soul, or say, "What I have in my hand is nothing but a lie!"

Isaiah 44:18,20

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

John 8:32

The Eyrie episode and the Purple Wedding trial are actually quite similar. In both cases Tyrion is set up and Littlefinger is involved. He is innocent in both cases and his false accusers are both a mother protecting her son. The first was using him as a sacrifice to start a war between two families, the second as a sacrifice to end one. The sin of Jaime and Cersei is the seed of his usefulness as a sacrifice in both cases. His sky cell always offers the "out" of flying while he always has the "out" of the Wall from Tywin while jailed in KL. In both cases the real guilty party sits in judgment of him. In the first he deliberately uses himself being laughed at to win the option for trial by combat, in the second it is him being unwillingly laughed at that motivates him to choose trial by combat. We learn the lie of Tysha after the first trial and the truth after the second. He goes to Tywin afterwards both times-- our first and last Tywin encounters. He runs to his family after the Eyrie and away from it after the Purple Wedding.

So we have judgment, imprisonment, and a struggle for freedom shaded by his external family and internal Lannister nature all surrounding Tysha.

[Uncat]

"My cock betrayed me." It comes all down to that little line.

At the point, where Tyrion tells the Tysha story, many readers will all have formed a tie to Tyrion. We readers have seen him deal with his birth defect, handing out his advice to Jon, using the special knowledge he gained along with his ingeniousity when he draws up Bran's saddle and shows Robb to be wrong about him. We came to see the man within the dwarf. And yeah, he may be a little ambiguose. But actually wasn't that not even a liberation after all those good of heart, great of character "our little house in the prairie" Starks?

And fittingly we came to meet Tywin before we get the Tysha tale. We get a good notion of how he sees his son. This all prepares the ground. We have seen all those prejudices against Tyrion, how he has to fight even within his family and now, finaly, the author takes us to the heart of it. Kind of the event horizont of the whole Tywin-Tyrion-Jamie affair.

We learn, how the kind brother who has it all sets up a play in order to teach his dwarf brother about sex and romance. Jamie comes off so considerate. He does not take Tyrion to a brothel, no, he rather arranges a romantic setting. Only that things get out of hand. Innocent Tyrion falls for the sweet little whore and the father has to interfere to solve the situation.

The father being Tywin acts as we expected without any regards for Tyrions feeling and gives Tyrion a sharp lesson about whores, whoring and his status as a Lannister. At the same point, the girl becomes just a whore, thus - as Ragnorag puts it so perfectly - stripped of her story which makes her exchangable. Her feelings in this are of no concern any longer. Only Tyrions feelings matter to the reader.

Tyrion is the poor, thirteen years old boy. He stands there, his illusions on love crushed by his harsh unloving father. Even the whole rape parade isn't about Tysha any longer. The moment the girl becomes a whore without a story, her fate is repurposed. It is reduced to just another prove of just how harsh this father is to his son. This poor dwarf-boy feels betrayed by almost everyone, even by his brother (though out of kindness) and now to top it all, even his body betrays him and denies him the best excuse he would have had, not to do, what his father wants.

"My cock betrayed me." We are with a helpless boy and with all that we have learned about him beforehands we are so ready to accept this excuse. Many men anyway, because as WoW pointed out, men will always remeber how treacherous a teenager's cock is to a boy. And even women who don't share this experience are ready to embarque on this little line of self delusion. Be it out of compassion with and mercy for that small boy or out of knowledge (like WoW tells it), because is is universal knowledge and colportated again and again: "You cannot argue with a boner," as Charly Harper puts it in "Two and a halve men".

And that is the point where the writer's trap snapps shut. To embarque on that line of excuse means for the reader to enter a pact with Tyrion and to join in his way body and soul. "My cock betrayed me." Once you buy that line, you loose the ability to see Tyrions world and experiences other then with his eyes. You will buy any other excuse Tyrions makes for his actions.

I know it, because, I have been there (ohh, and I still am, to a point. He is still one of my favorit characters).

[Uncat]

Actually, we will have Tyrion being betrayed by one of his members again in the next chapter. He never activly pulls the trigger. He just feels the thudd, when his darn index finger takes action on its own account.

[Woman of War]

Actually, we will have Tyrion being betrayed by one of his members again in the next chapter. He never activly pulls the trigger. He just feels the thudd, when his darn index finger takes action on its own account.

Here I disagree a little. True, shooting his father after that damning half sentence is described as quasi instinctive reaction. But later in ADWD Tyrion claims to have killed his father very knowingly at least three times a chapter.

[Uncat]

Point taken. I let the idea seduce me :)

[Lummel]

...And that is the point where the writer's trap snapps shut. To embarque on that line of excuse means for the reader to enter a pact with Tyrion and to join in his way body and soul. "My cock betrayed me."...

Yes I think so. That rationalisation allows him to disassociate himself from the action which was obviously extremely traumatic. Equally we see in how he tells the story there has been a shift from Tysha to focusing on himself and the tension between wanting to be like and liked by Tywin and that fact that Tywin arranged this awful "sharp lesson".

What Jaime's revelation does is shift the focus for Tyrion, it wasn't a prostitute who had been put up to the job of sleeping with Tyrion for money by Jaime that he raped, it was his wife, who was a crofters daughter, who he had sworn before the Seven to protect.

There's a shift from thinking about himself as a conflicted boy: 'my Father is teaching me this for my own good, this is what happens to people who try to take advantage of House Lannister (with a subtext of 'but I don't want to do this, this is terrible, its not me it is my penis') to 'I was made to do this terrible thing, which was simply meaningless and cruel by my father who I trusted, admired and wanted to be loved by'.

These type of shifts are GRRM's hallmark, the old "the human heart in conflict with itself". Its very powerful, it also wraps up part of the Tyrion storyline, I'm trying to integrate this with the ADWD storyline that follows, but its complex because we know there is also the parricide. Moving from being condemned as a kinslayer to becoming one and the emotional stew is very thick.

Something maybe to look out for is that Tyrion is being shown that he was taken advantage of and played. We've seen occasions when this probably also happened in ACOK and Tyrion knows that something of sort happened with Baelish and the dagger. But this is a much bigger challenge in terms of being forced to confront that a pillar of his life stood on a lie.

[The Rise of Dorne]

did you reread the first two books as well somewhere? People kept telling me come here yesterday, but I don't really enjoying reading sad Tyrion (ASOS-ADWD i like happy Tyrion AGOT-ACOK)

[Lummel]

You are a little late to the party Rise of Dorne, we started with AGOT and the previous threads can be found here: Tyrion I, Tyrion II, Tyrion III and Tyrion IV. We had a brief round up AGOT and ACOK here.

Shortly we will be indulging ourselves in sad Tyrion as you put it :laugh: but maybe you'll find something that tickles your fancy in the earlier threads. Do feel free to bring up in the current thread any of the older issues. It's good to stretch the brain by having a different perspective on things now we're a bit further along.

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion XI (SoS) Final Chapter

Summary

Tyrion is in the black cells waiting execution when he hears noises outside. He wants to meet his end fighting, to go to the headsman with some measure of dignity, and to exact some last measure of revenge with his final words. It is Jaime at the door come to free him. After a warm reunion Jaime tells Tyrion that he owes him a debt and confesses that Tysha was in fact a crofter's daughter chance met on the road. He lied about her being a whore at Tywin's command. Jaime asks Tyrion for the truth about Joffrey's murder in return but Tyrion takes this as yet another offense and lies to Jaime about his guilt as well as imparting some hurtful truths about Cersei. They part ways and Tyrion goes to meet Varys on his own.

Tyrion confronts Varys about his lack of support during his trial as they head through the secret passages toward the river. They come across the secret passage to the Tower of the Hand and Tyrion insists on going up. He overhears some guards talking and makes the connection between these passages and Varys's little birds. He emerges in Tywin's bedchamber to find Shae naked in his bed. When she calls him "My giant of Lannister" he strangles her to death with the golden chain of hands he had crafted when he first arrived at KL. He then picks up a crossbow and confronts Tywin about Tysha. Tywin doesn't take him seriously. He tells Tyrion the escape is folly, that he isn't going to be executed, and ignores his warning to not call Tysha a whore again. At the word "whore" Tyrion kills him.

Observations

The fireplace was full of hot ash, and a black log with a hot orange heart burning within.

Jaime would not be afraid, he thought, before he remembered what Jaime had done to him.

Jaime had lectured him more than once on the drawbacks of crossbows.

This reminds me of the theme we see with the Starks with things like "I can be as brave as Robb." The sense of strength he would draw from his family is undermined.

From Jaime:

I’ve lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war.

Someone noted earlier that whatever happened under Tytos united Tywin's generation against their father. Tyrion's generation couldn't be more divided as a result of their father's actions.

From Tyrion II CoK

“I served Lord Arryn and Lord Stark as best I could. I was saddened and horrified by their most untimely deaths.”

“Think how I feel. I’m like to be next.”

“Oh, I think not,” Varys said, swirling the wine in his cup. “Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?”

Power resides where men believe it resides. Is it fair to say that Jaime's reveal destroyed the belief that gave Tywin power over Tyrion? There's also a bit of an invitation to compare and contrast Ned and Tyrion as Hands here.

The black cells, men call them. That was where you were kept, and Eddard Stark before you.

I arrived here a King’s Hand, riding through the gates at the head of my own sworn men, Tyrion reflected, and I leave like a rat scuttling through the dark, holding hands with a spider.

Ned arrived the same way and asked Varys to help him escape as well. Ned lost a father and brother from the actions of a Mad King too though under quite different circumstances and at a different time than when he was Hand. Ned successfully saved his loved one, Sansa, while Tyrion failed to save Tysha. Tyrion's reflections on how he will be remembered also stands out against the way we see Ned's legacy still playing out.

I can’t begin to tell you what you’ve earned. But you’ll have it, that I swear to you.

This reminds me of Dany swearing revenge upon Mago and Jhaqo at the end of GoT in that it seems such a delusional stretch from their current position of power. Both are over the failure to protect a young woman from rape.

Analysis

This seems to be the chapter where all the Lannister family disunity catches up with them. The Tyrion/Jaime bond is shattered, Tyrion poisons the already weakened Cersei/Jaime bond, Tywin is killed, his death alienates Kevan and Cersei's actions have poisoned Lancel in what will divide another father and son. Varys and Littlefinger seem to have backed the Lannisters in their power bid to exploit this disunity for their own gain and agendas. The Tyrells and Dorne have exploited it as well in helping to set up Tyrion and getting him to choose trial by combat. They feel "used up" at this point. Jaime still wants to have a positive relationship with his family members, at least his siblings, and he is the only one not concerned with power-- there seems to be a connection there.

“You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.” He made himself grin. It must have been a hideous sight to see, there in the torchlit gloom.

Tyrion is doing to Jaime here what Jaime did to him with Tysha with the (more or less) truth instead of a lie. Jaime told him the woman he loved was a whore and Tyrion is doing the same thing here. His falsely admitting to killing Joffrey seems to be an attempt to hurt him as well. Part of it seems to be in response to Jaime having too little faith in Tyrion and the other part seems to be that he knows that answer will hurt more.

I see the Tysha lie as the basis for Tyrion's psychological imprisonment and Jaime's reveal as something that offers him freedom though it doesn't free him yet. This seems to be a bit of a metaphor for that upcoming journey.

Before he had gone a dozen yards, he bumped up against an iron gate that closed the passage. Oh, gods. It was all he could do not to scream.

Jaime came up behind him. “I have the gaoler’s keys.”

“Then use them.” Tyrion stepped aside.

Jaime unlocked the gate, pushed it open, and stepped through. He looked back over his shoulder. “Are you coming?”

“Not with you.” Tyrion stepped through.

What does Varys know?

“So tell me, wizard, where is my innocent maiden wife?”

“I have found no trace of Lady Sansa in King’s Landing sad to say. Nor of Ser Dontos Hollard, who by rights should have turned up somewhere drunk by now. They were seen together on the serpentine steps the night she vanished. After that, nothing. There was much confusion that night. My little birds are silent.”

I believe Varys speaks in technical truths. He lies by answering a different question and letting the implications stand but he doesn't seem to outright tell falsehoods. He only says that he has found no trace of her in Kings Landing not that he doesn't know where she is. I think Varys knows enough to figure out Littlefinger smuggled her away even without any specific information about Sansa's location. Who saw them on the serpentine steps?

Shae

Two of his father’s guardsmen were joking about the Imp’s whore, saying how sweet it would be to fuck her, and how bad she must want a real cock in place of the dwarf’s stunted little thing. “Most like it’s got a crook in it,” said Lum.

These men don't seem to be aware that the "Imp's whore" is currently in the next room. How did she get in if the guards don't know she's there? Did Varys slip her in?

turning toward him with a sleepy smile on her lips. It died when she saw him. She pulled the blankets up to her chin, as if that would protect her.

She sat up, letting the blanket slide down to her lap. Beneath it she was naked, but for the chain about her throat. A chain of linked golden hands, each holding the next.

Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted.

Somehow the blanket reminds me of all the cloak as protection symbolism we've seen. We see her instinct is a dying smile and to protect herself followed by a conscious choice to show vulnerability to manipulate him. The chain he was so focused on as his at the beginning of Storm is now clearly his father's. This also seems to be another power/belief dynamic. Shae had power over Tyrion when he believed the Tysha lie, believed love could be bought, that Tysha and Shae were the same. Would she have been successful manipulating him here had Jaime never told him the truth?

That Tywin sleeps with whore's seems a bit hypocritical given his attitudes toward Tytos and Tyrion, but his discretion can easily explain that away. What really strikes me here is that he chooses Tyrion's whore and gives her his Hand necklace to wear. The necklace strikes me as highly hypocritical given Tytos and the choice to sleep with Tyrion's whore is just disturbing on a number of psychological levels. Although we can objectively distinguish the discretion aspect, I don't think Tyrion will ever split that hair.

Tywin

“Tyrion.” If he was afraid, Tywin Lannister gave no hint of it. “Who released you from your cell?”

“I’d love to tell you, but I swore a holy oath.”

“The eunuch,” his father decided. “I’ll have his head for this. Is that my crossbow? Put it down.”

Why does he decide it must be Varys? Does he suspect Jaime and Varys and will only punish Varys? Does he suspect Varys of having other loyalties and an agenda? Does he know about the secret passage? If Varys smuggled Shae in for him that would be one explanation.

I don't think Tywin is telling the truth with his claim that Tyrion is going to the Wall. I think this line gives it away.

“I owe you nothing.”

“This escape is folly. You are not to be killed, if that is what you fear. It’s still my intent to send you to the Wall, but I could not do it without Lord Tyrell’s consent. Put down the crossbow and we will go back to my chambers and talk of it.”

Given the way the last few conversations between them went I can see why Tywin would suggest this option, but what about Shae? Tywin knows Shae is in those chambers. He doesn't seem concerned enough with Tyrion as a threat to call the guards. How does he expect Tyrion to react to Shae? Is this another "sharp lesson' for pointing a crossbow at daddy? Does he think Tyrion already found Shae and this is why he's so upset? The execution seems a bit more pressing.

“You… you are no… no son of mine.”

This is the same line he uses on Jaime for refusing to leave the Kingsguard. Is being shot with a crossbow the same offense to Tywin as Jaime not leaving the KG? Is the offense weighted by his own perceptions of his two sons?

The quarrel had sunk deep, right to the fletching. Blood seeped out around the shaft, dripping down into his pubic hair and over his bare thighs.

This strikes me as a sexual image not unlike the violent rapes that seem to surround Tywin.

Tywin meets his end with a stench, a lie, and a jape.

[Lummel]

It is a penetration. And a violation. And it does seize up and rob him of his life, the latin form of which gives us the English word rape.

I like how you drew out the tragedy of Jaime's position. He alone seems conscious of all the losses they have endured as a family for the political victory they have gained.

[Silverin]

I see the Tysha lie as the basis for Tyrion's psychological imprisonment and Jaime's reveal as something that offers him freedom though it doesn't free him yet. This seems to be a bit of a metaphor for that upcoming journey.

I disagree that tyrion can be freed from tywin. I think the moment he decided to kill him, instead of just escaping, he became forever trapped by him.

In my country when someone is resposibble for someones death, the phrase: his/her (victim's) blood is dried into his/her (culprits) soul is used, indicating that it is not something you can wash off (the blood is not on your hand, but n your soul, so you cannot wash it off). It will always be there.

And I think exactly because he killed tywin, he will never be freed from him, his fathers ghost will always follow him wherever he goes.

That was his last chance, at least that is the feeling I got while reading. Every time I read I get this huge fatal feeling, and when tyrion decides that his last action is to kill tywin, I always feel he doomed himself. He could have been freed by him, if he listens to others and just simply escapes, and leaves his family behind, but not anymore. And from ADwD, in the last chapter, he writes a paper, with the identity Lord of Castery Rock. He takes his fathers place. I don't think that is freeing himslef from him.

But that is just my thoughts. But every time I read that chapter, I always get the feeling how tyrion doomed himself there (or shot himself). Then I read the forum I see how many people were happy that he killed tywin.

I on the other hand was incredibly sad for tyrion. I saw him as this someone who is capable of good things when he can get out from his fathers shadow.

But when he actually killed him, he became forever trapped by it, again these are my feelings. I just don't see how can he free himself from that anymore. And while tywin cannot order him around anymore, but becomming Tywin No.2 more and more means he is just as trapped by his father if not more than ever.

[Lummel]

I agree with both of you :)

It seems to me that as Ragnorak says in Jaime's truth there is the potential for Tyrion to realise something profound and to change, but equally I think Silverin I think you are right. This is a stage in becoming the father. In some ways the murder is a repetition as Ragnorak describes it a sexual act that imitates the 'sharp lesson' that Tyrion was given.

What did Tywin teach Tyrion that day when he was a boy - that as a lannister you can use violence to reshape the world. By killing his father he shows how well he has learnt that lesson.

There is no reconcilation. The chance of reconcilation is shot down forever. One theme in Tyrions arc in ASOS is the struggle between father and son that began with with Tywin riding into Joffrey's throne room and his horse crapping on the floor. Tyrion doesn't resolve or escape that struggle, rather he declares himself the winner, but I would agree, by doing so he is still trapped in that dynamic. Possibly I'm just an optimist though!

[Buddug]

Excellent write-up Ragnorak, you've really captured the dense, heavy feeling of disunity and hatred that is bearing down on the whole Lannister family. I agree that Jaime's lack of focus on power is key to his still wanting a relationship with his family. His becoming Kingsguard is usually cast as a twisted punishment but here it seems like a blessing. By taking him out of the succession it frees him from vying for Tywin's approval (most of the time!) and might be key to the more positive parts of his arc in AFFC. But we are here to talk about Tyrion...

I disagree that tyrion can be freed from tywin. I think the moment he decided to kill him, instead of just escaping, he became forever trapped by him.

In my country when someone is resposibble for someones death, the phrase: his/her (victim's) blood is dried into his/her (culprits) soul is used, indicating that it is not something you can wash off (the blood is not on your hand, but n your soul, so you cannot wash it off). It will always be there.

And I think exactly because he killed tywin, he will never be freed from him, his fathers ghost will always follow him wherever he goes.

That was his last chance, at least that is the feeling I got while reading. Every time I read I get this huge fatal feeling, and when tyrion decides that his last action is to kill tywin, I always feel he doomed himself. He could have been freed by him, if he listens to others and just simply escapes, and leaves his family behind, but not anymore. And from ADwD, in the last chapter, he writes a paper, with the identity Lord of Castery Rock. He takes his fathers place. I don't think that is freeing himslef from him.

But that is just my thoughts. But every time I read that chapter, I always get the feeling how tyrion doomed himself there (or shot himself). Then I read the forum I see how many people were happy that he killed tywin.

I on the other hand was incredibly sad for tyrion. I saw him as this someone who is capable of good things when he can get out from his fathers shadow.

But when he actually killed him, he became forever trapped by it, again these are my feelings. I just don't see how can he free himself from that anymore. And while tywin cannot order him around anymore, but becomming Tywin No.2 more and more means he is just as trapped by his father if not more than ever.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Silverin. For me Tyrion's patricide felt like a victory the first time I read it, but on the reread it is very much the first step into the downward spiral he will inhabit in ADWD. But he is trapped, killing Shae is one tipping point, Tywin's laughter is another. If only Tyrion had heard the maxim "The best revenge is living well" and simply walked away to a life of wine and women in the Free Cities. Ah well...

[Ragnorak]

I disagree that tyrion can be freed from tywin. I think the moment he decided to kill him, instead of just escaping, he became forever trapped by him.

In my country when someone is resposibble for someones death, the phrase: his/her (victim's) blood is dried into his/her (culprits) soul is used, indicating that it is not something you can wash off (the blood is not on your hand, but n your soul, so you cannot wash it off). It will always be there.

<snip>

Silverin, I think that is a very interesting way to look at it. It may very well play out that way. Without the truth from Jaime I do think he'd be trapped without some similar external epiphany, but it doesn't free him so much as give him the opportunity to find freedom. He still hits the locked gate after Jaime tells him the truth. He still needs help from Jaime to unlock the gate and Varys to find his way out. He does have to descend before he escapes. Becoming Tywin of his own volition is still a path he may follow even at the end of DwD.

While I don't typically condone murder I do believe that you reap what sow even if the harvest is a long time coming. Tywin basically had his own actions come full circle. Would Tyrion have been a bigger and better man to let Tywin live or would he have just been someone who dammed up the karmic river from flowing full circle because he was too afraid or proud or too something else to get his own hands dirty? I don't think there's a clear answer to this. Martin seems to value dirty hands. Men like LF have clean hands and men like Ned do their own killing. Tywin had his guards rape Tysha, had Tyrion rape Tysha, but kept his own hands clean. Back in a GoT when he first tells the Tysha story he mentions to Bronn that Bronn may get the opportunity to kill Tywin. Having Bronn do it seems more Tywin-like than doing it himself. Then there's Lummel's description of the "sharp lesson" being replicated that makes it seem far more Tywin-like.

Would letting Tywin live eat away at Tyrion more than killing him does? I fall into the Tywin had it coming camp. Whether that it came from Tyrion is better or worse for Tyrion in the end is a hard call and can go either way. I tend to think that Tywin making him participate in the Tysha rape is easier to cope with for him having "participated" in killing Tywin but I don't think it is exactly a black and white case.

ETA:

Welcome aboard, Buddug!

[Silverin]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Silverin. For me Tyrion's patricide felt like a victory the first time I read it, but on the reread it is very much the first step into the downward spiral he will inhabit in ADWD. But he is trapped, killing Shae is one tipping point, Tywin's laughter is another. If only Tyrion had heard the maxim "The best revenge is living well" and simply walked away to a life of wine and women in the Free Cities. Ah well...

Exactly. :) And welcome.

Would letting Tywin live eat away at Tyrion more than killing him does? I fall into the Tywin had it coming camp. Whether that it came from Tyrion is better or worse for Tyrion in the end is a hard call and can go either way. I tend to think that Tywin making him participate in the Tysha rape is easier to cope with for him having "participated" in killing Tywin but I don't think it is exactly a black and white case.!

I don't blame tyrion killing tywin either. As you said, tywin got what was comming. No tears shed for him.

But murder has effect on the people who does it as well. In this case tyrion. I was talking more about the effect it had on tyrion, and the feeling, that true freedom for tyrion would have meant that he could have just simply walked away from him. And now that he killed tywinn, that is not something he can ever do, like Jaime did. That option is forever closed. When he decided to stay and confront tywin he decided that tywin, and what he sais matters. Like late in ADwD he calls JonCon "father" mockingly in his head, he dreams about him, and at last takes his place. He is not free from tywin so far at all.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I disagree that tyrion can be freed from tywin. I think the moment he decided to kill him, instead of just escaping, he became forever trapped by him.

In my country when someone is resposibble for someones death, the phrase: his/her (victim's) blood is dried into his/her (culprits) soul is used, indicating that it is not something you can wash off (the blood is not on your hand, but n your soul, so you cannot wash it off). It will always be there.

And I think exactly because he killed tywin, he will never be freed from him, his fathers ghost will always follow him wherever he goes.

That was his last chance, at least that is the feeling I got while reading. Every time I read I get this huge fatal feeling, and when tyrion decides that his last action is to kill tywin, I always feel he doomed himself. He could have been freed by him, if he listens to others and just simply escapes, and leaves his family behind, but not anymore. And from ADwD, in the last chapter, he writes a paper, with the identity Lord of Castery Rock. He takes his fathers place. I don't think that is freeing himslef from him.

But that is just my thoughts. But every time I read that chapter, I always get the feeling how tyrion doomed himself there (or shot himself). Then I read the forum I see how many people were happy that he killed tywin.

I on the other hand was incredibly sad for tyrion. I saw him as this someone who is capable of good things when he can get out from his fathers shadow.

But when he actually killed him, he became forever trapped by it, again these are my feelings. I just don't see how can he free himself from that anymore. And while tywin cannot order him around anymore, but becomming Tywin No.2 more and more means he is just as trapped by his father if not more than ever.

and now add the fact that as a kinslayer( now he's as low as a frey to westrosi)

he will never be able to hold the rock

[Buddug]

Thanks for the welcome!

I don't blame tyrion killing tywin either. As you said, tywin got what was comming. No tears shed for him.

But murder has effect on the people who does it as well. In this case tyrion. I was talking more about the effect it had on tyrion, and the feeling, that true freedom for tyrion would have meant that he could have just simply walked away from him. And now that he killed tywinn, that is not something he can ever do, like Jaime did. That option is forever closed. When he decided to stay and confront tywin he decided that tywin, and what he sais matters. Like late in ADwD he calls JonCon "father" mockingly in his head, he dreams about him, and at last takes his place. He is not free from tywin so far at all.

You're right that Tyrion cannot have that freedom, there is a claustrophobic feel to this chapter that is the opposite of how an escape should feel. Jaime's revelation (and Tyrion's vitriolic reponse) deepens the horror of his past, the darkness of the black cell, the close quarters of the climb to Tywin's chamber, the visceral stink of Tywin's murder and the child-sized tunnels all echo the collapse and constriction of Tyrion's future. He may be escaping but what is he escaping to? Tyrion's whole world is built around his Lannister identity and his struggle with it. With the rejection of Jaime and murder of Tywin, all that is gone.