Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Uncat]

Lummel, the whole father & Father thing makes for a interesting lead question for the ADWD chapters: Tyrion killed the father without. But what about the father within? As you say, Tyrion's trip is much about recreating himself. What I'm wondering now is, if Tyrion will recreat the lost father by becoming his version of Tywin - like he tryied in Clash? Or will he kill the father within himself, too?

On the trial: Yes, it is unfair. But, this trial does not go as a trial in Westeros is supposed to go. This because Tyrion does not behave as he is supposed to behave.

As far as I can take it from what we see, for Westerosi standards, this trial is quite a thing. If Tyrion were nobody, the family of the victim would call out for the justice of the ruling lord. They would bring as much witnesses as they can, to make their case. Tyrion on the other hand would herd as much witnesses as he can before the lord to proof otherwise. Then the Lord would decide.

Having the lord in charge - Tywin as lord of Lannister-land and hand of the king - sided by two other great lords and one of them clearly being no friend to Tywin - is more then show. It is a requirement to make this trial as fair as it can get in this unfair world. This the more, as the whole case would regularly be family business of house Lannister, which falls into the sole power of the Lord of Lannister both as lord and as father of the accused and the accuser - only that it isn't and Tywin needs to make sure, the trial stands, regardless of the outcome. The three judges are show. But they are not just a setup to make a certain outcome sure. They additional judges are rather there to proof, that Tywin is just, no matter how the judges will rule.

Cersei acts according to the habbits of Westerosi trials. She gathers witnesses to proof their stories with truths, halftruths and outright lies. This is the time, before the states atourny was invented. The idea is, that, he or she who wants justice steps up before her lord or kong and demands it. And to proof, that he or she deservs it, the accuser needs to bring forth witnesses. As much and as trustworthy witnesses she or he can come up with. The accused on the other hand can come before the lord on his own will, once he knows about the accusations or he is brought by force. Anyway it happens, in a fair trial, the lord will concede him a way and chance to counter the witnesses of the accuser with his own wittnesses. Again: the more and the trustworthier the better.

On the day of the trial, the lord would sit down and hear both sides out. As long as he would give both sides the same amount of time and the same treatment, this would be considered a fair proceeding. As forensics still had to be invented, too, physical evidence would play a small part. The whole case would be about facts statet by the witnesses and - almost more important - it would be about their evidence on the character of the accused.

Cersei does her part. But Tyrion does not and I'm wondering why. He does not even try. Yes, he sits over his empty witnesslist. but he does think allong the wrong lines. He does not ponder on who to call but rather on who might still like him enough to help him and then bathes in the selfpity of having no one.

Having no witnesses for his side of the story - actually not even having an own take on the story, the case becomes terribly one sided show. So in great lenghs, it is Tyrions lack of actions, that turns the trial into the condemning prroceeding it becomes.

But why doesn't Tyrion act? My guess: He once more is acting the way, he thinks his father would want him to act. Offscreen he felt, that his father needs a scapegoat to blame the murder on and that the father wants and needs him to sacrifice himself in this trial. And this thought is, what really paralizes him. He just sits there letting things happen. He knows he will be sacrificed to the cause of Lannister power and this is why the evening in his chambers feel rather like a dying man looking back on his life then a man fighting a desperate fight for his life.

He is a child of Tywin's and as Tywin's children always did throughout the books, he just stands there, accepting whatever their father pours down on them.

Boy, I am glad for not living in that world with that kind of justice.

[Currawong]

I think it was genuine as well.

After all he didn't needed tyrion's confession to execute him, with the whole trial, and later the trail by combat. In this case tyrion obviously can't get CR.

And if tyrion geoes to the Wall, he can't inherit CR either. So I don't see why tywin needs to kill him.

I think Tywin was genuine, because Tywin the schemer will have been looking a lot further ahead than just making things look better for House Lannister. He gets 'a' Lannister up on the Wall, and a reasonably clever one at that. (Remember the bit about the Wall needs clever people as well as fighters, back in Book 1). Tywin 'saves' Tyrion's life - Tyrion is grateful - Tyrion gets sent to the Wall with the idea of helping to 'manage' things or at least report back to Tywin and KL. Not to mention of course that Tyrion then can't inherit CR. Wins/win, as they say.

Cersei does her part. But Tyrion does not and I'm wondering why. He does not even try. Yes, he sits over his empty witnesslist. but he does think allong the wrong lines. He does not ponder on who to call but rather on who might still like him enough to help him and then bathes in the selfpity of having no one.

Having no witnesses for his side of the story - actually not even having an own take on the story, the case becomes terribly one sided show. So in great lenghs, it is Tyrions lack of actions, that turns the trial into the condemning prroceeding it becomes.

But why doesn't Tyrion act? My guess: He once more is acting the way, he thinks his father would want him to act. Offscreen he felt, that his father needs a scapegoat to blame the murder on and that the father wants and needs him to sacrifice himself in this trial. And this thought is, what really paralizes him. He just sits there letting things happen. He knows he will be sacrificed to the cause of Lannister power and this is why the evening in his chambers feel rather like a dying man looking back on his life then a man fighting a desperate fight for his life.

He is a child of Tywin's and as Tywin's children always did throughout the books, he just stands there, accepting whatever their father pours down on them.

I don't really blame Tyrion for thinking along the lines of who might like him enough to help him. This isn't a world where you can just call in objective witnesses in terms of who saw what and when, and who could be called on to vouch that he's never mistreated Joffrey, etc. This is a world where witnesses can be bought and sold - we even have Jaime reflecting on the sort of 'evidence' that can easily be obtained. So for Tyrion, without monetary resources of his own, and unsure just how much Tywin would be prepared to pay behind the scenes, is thinking about people who might act on his behalf for personal reasons, rather than the gold that is obviously being splashed around. And he's quite realistic about his father needing a scapegoat, which again is why he wouldn't necessarily think that Tywin would ever buy evidence on his behalf.

[Danelle]

Something to think:

Was there no time that day, or Cersei needed to prepare the final witness?

There is a possibility that Cersei needed some extra time to prepare Shae, scare or intimidate her. Cersei is not stupid, on the contrary she is quite clever, she has terrible judgement though and is too impatient. But there was no reason for to hurry since Tyrion was at his cell and had nowhere else to go. I think she planned the trial methodically. The accusations against Tyrion gradually escalated, at first there is Balon, who not only mentions that Tyrion saved the city from Stannis, but he actually fought. And he is convinced of Tyrion's innosence. But the fact remains that Tyrion hit Joffrey. As more witnesses speak, the amount of accusations against Tyrion escalates and by the time Varys testifies, everyone is cinvinced that Tyrion had motive and the poison to use against Joffrey. I think that this was Cersei's first plan. Erase Tyrion's actions as Hand or even protector of Sansa and present him as an eager kinslayer, which means take away his Lannister armour. Tyrion betrayed his House and his family the moment he turned against his own nephew. Then, Shae follows. I think that Cersei used Shae as a mean to take away Tyrion's dignity and status in the court as a highborn lord and a Lannister. Shae had to testify alone so as to make a greater impact and convince the judges of the extent of Tyrion's depravity.

[Lummel]

Just posting this here for interest from a GRRM interview in a travel magazine

ST: In A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, you started using labels like The Queen's Hand or The Iron Suitor as chapter titles, whereas in the earlier volumes it was always Jon or Ned or Arya, that kind of thing. Is this a way of exploring issues of identity? Particularly with Arya and Sansa and Theon, their entire identities seem to be changing.

GRRM: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm getting at there. A lot of identities are under assault in these books.

ST: Another theme that emerges—it's there all along, but it becomes even clearer in the epilogue to A Dance with Dragons—is that the characters who think they're players in the game of thrones are more often than not the pawns. The real power is in the shadows. Did you intend to explore that idea from the very beginning or has it emerged as the story developed?

GRRM: Well, it depends on what state you're talking about. When I first began this series back in 1991, I really didn't know what it was. By the time I was well into A Game of Thrones, though, I knew what the major themes would be, and that is certainly one of them. The nature of power and the uses of power and what people do to get to power—those are some of the major things I'm dealing with.

Varys' riddle that he poses in A Clash of Kings about the swordsman who gets conflicting demands from the king, the priest, and the wealthy man—whom does he obey? Who actually has the power? I think that's a central question here.

The business of identity and power I thought was relevant to our hero.

[Blisscraft]

Blast! Where is the "Like" button? :tantrum:

[Lummel]

Like is down. I noticed that Westeros crashed for a couple of hours twice this week in the morning (morning in the UK). Apparently these crashes were down to instability in the reputation database ie the 'like' system and it will be gone according to his Majesty, Ran first of his name etc until such times as a software solution can be engineered.

[the Scorpion Knight]

You know talking about tyrions past actions and how they led him here, or parallels that show in here:

- In Clash he makes an unneccessary enemy out of Pycelle. At that time he feels that he won a big victory, but he knew that Pycelle is a Lanister men, and it is not him he should be hunting.. Just like that Pycelle got his job back.

- Joffrey: his times he was hostile to Joffrey, all the cool tyrion slapping bastard Joffrey, and his threats about Tomenn Joff lead to the point where people believed he would do it.

- Antler Men: They were people who didn't recieve any trial. Based on Varys tyrion sentenced all of them to die and gave them over to Joffrey. We later learn all of them had debts toward the throne, whcih now cannot be collected, and this, and this further bankrupts the Throne. Lets see compared to that here tyrion has a trial, there are multiple vitness (granted there are fakes among them as well). he later has a chance for a trial by combat, and he has the chance to take the black as well.

- Taena Merrywether, does she work for LF? She is clearly one of the key witnesses who point the blame to tyrion. And we are still not sure wether the Tyrells wanted to frame tyrion, or it was simply LFs role. They definietly don't work together compeletly, after all it was LF who informed Tywin, about the Sansa/Wyllas marriage plans. Wonder wheter the Tyrells know that that they were double crossed by him.

I am sure a lot of you can make much better essays but it is interesting to see that how the "witnesses" are there because of tyrions past actions.

i think this trial is the bill for the lannister's not sticking together also for tywin and cerseithe worst for the lannisters has yet to come IMHO

A thought by tyrion:

Later, he kills her because at the question "Did you ever like it" Shae gives the "sweet" lie (well it is not sweet anymore), instead of the truth.

Something to think:

Was there no time that day, or Cersei needed to prepare the final witness?

funny how this line also reflect that none told him in ADWD that he will be unable to hold the rock because of his crime.

Sorry to double post, but now I list who the witnesses were.

1-3. There to proove that Tyrion had a motive, that he was hostile towards Joff. Since they are KG 2.3. are Cersei's.

4. There to proove Tyrion had a motive. Kettleblacks, both Cersei's and LFs men.

5. Prooving Joff was poisoned

6. Pycelle first showing he has knowledge about poisons. He claims they fpund the stolen poisons exept the strangler. Pycelle is an enemy tyrion made.

(By the way Pycelle didn't actually have strangler did he? He just made that up to frame tyrion, or do I remember wrongly?)

7-8. stating facts that happened at the wedding

9. Merryweather, lies she saw tyrion putting something into the chalice. Obviously either Tyrell or LF's man. (I think LF, but that is only my opinion)

10. stating facts, a Slynt among them.

11. Varys, also telling facts

Me thinks taena is a spy for the martells. quick realisation: ISN'T her first action at court

Lummel - The fact that all of the witnesses against Tyrion have an axe to grind only makes an unfair process more unfair. If Tyrion had been permitted to cross examine the witnesses against him, be could have pointed out their respective bias against him and thereby discredited their testimony. However, because he is denied the opportunity to reveal their bias, the whole trial stinks more than Tywin will. As readers, we know that each and everyone of the witnesses, with perhaps the exception of Swann, holds some kind of grudge against Tyrion, or is aligned with Cersei, such as Lady Merryweather, (no merry weather for Tyrion it seems).

As for the "older" generation, it seems from Kevan's statements that Tywin is the one of Tyos children who took the reins and pulled the Lannister family back together after so much indignity. Kevan says, "It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place." There is not only Tyrion's "astonishment" at Kevan's love for his brother, but also a true sense of how much Kevan respects his brother's ability to rule, to be "just." It's ironic that this sentiment occurs after we have witnessed two days of pure railroading of which Tywin is a main participant.

As for Oberyn, he really dodged a bullet, didn't he? This whole thing seems to be an attempt by the Tyrells (with Tywins tacit approval) to nip the Dornish alliance Tyrion helped to forge in the "rosebud." It seems that the "Red Viper" was to be set up as the fall guy for Joffrey's murder, and yet Cersei's wild finger pointing at Tyrion diverted the plan. As for Oberyn's motives to champion Tyrion, it offers him an opportunity to act "rashly" as Doran wouldn't. Oberyn, if he wins, can spoil any justice for Joffrey's death, as Elia's and her children's deaths were spoilt. The "guilty" will go free with no "justice" for the dead. (This is basically an eye for an eye type reasoning). Even if Oberyn loses, it gives him the satisfaction of knowing Gregor will die by poison. All Oberyn has to do it stick Gregor and justice for Elia and her children is done. The kneeling man will stand up.

me thinks the tyrells's wanted to put the blame on the martell's but LF wanted to put the blame on tyrion (i wouldn't surprised if he suggested the tyrion/ sansa marriage)

[Blisscraft]

Like is down. I noticed that Westeros crashed for a couple of hours twice this week in the morning (morning in the UK). Apparently these crashes were down to instability in the reputation database ie the 'like' system and it will be gone according to his Majesty, Ran first of his name etc until such times as a software solution can be engineered.

Thank you. :)

[Lummel]

...There is not only Tyrion's "astonishment" at Kevan's love for his brother, but also a true sense of how much Kevan respects his brother's ability to rule, to be "just." It's ironic that this sentiment occurs after we have witnessed two days of pure railroading of which Tywin is a main participant.

As for Oberyn, he really dodged a bullet, didn't he?...

Yes, he would have been the perfect patsy. But Tyrion works too to weaken the lannisters and create a vacancy on the small council!

I like the irony of Kevan's justice. This whole chapter, if we hadn't realised it already is showing us how different key concepts in Westeros are from our own. Our ideal Justice is impartial. In westeros that is unthinkable. Justice is meant to be partial. Tywin I suspect is just in Kevan's eyes by pursuing and upholding the interests of his family as a father should.

Sylverin's posts reminded me of something I thought rather peculiar about the list of witnesses and that is the lack of Tyrells, Martells and Lannisters among them...

Interesting point, all the witness are socially speaking small fry. The great lords are the judges, up on a dias above it all.

...Right in the first Tywin/Tyrion chapter of Storm, Tywin shatters this shild. Tyrion has lost his selfimage and his spell. He becomes unsure, unprotected and somehow helpless...

Then comes the trial and those three days with all the witnesses giving testemony against him ground his shild to dust. His selfimage is blown away and the defilee of witnesses forces on him the picture the world apparantly has of him...

What happens in those three days is pretty much a brainwash. Tyrion emerges from it with a very different selfperception. And when Jaime twist the last shard of his former shild out of his hand by confessing his betrayial, Tyrion pics up that new image the trial offered and he acts on it. The supposedly kinslaying imp becomes the kinslaying Imp. And in Dance we see him using this new image of the kinslaying Imp again and again. He repeatly describes himself as such and states, that most of all he wants to slay and rape what is left of his close relatives...

One quibble. Tyrion is already talking about killing Tywin and Cersei in Tyrion II AGOT, so this can't be something new, its something that has been there, at least in the background (also there is the dream of whipping Tywin, is that AGOT or later?).

Otherwise, yes I'm on board with identity as a key issue and I agree the interview with Tywin and the trial are key moments. At the end of AGOT Tywin gives Tyrion authority, at the end of ASOS he takes it away and makes him feel that it is wrong to claim credit for his successes. Somehow I don't think the conversation between Garlan and Mace ran along those lines after the Blackwater!

...I really like the Oberyn poisoning Tywin theory but it is entirely circumstantial. My emotions run to embracing the "may die" words. Given Doran's stated goals of destroying everything Tywin has before killing him and Oberyn asking Tyrion how Tywin would choose in a Tommen/Myrcella conflict, objectively this is a bit of circumstancial evidence pointing the other way. Oberyn is definitely improvising here. There's no way this could have been predicted back in Dorne.

me too. Circumstantial, but so tempting! Plus it explains the great stink and the convenient constipation.

...Oberyn seems to have been offering himself as a piece to Tyrion but he just never picked up on it.

Yes this is odd. Tyrion is as oblivious as Dunk is to the charms of John the Fiddler in The Mystery Knight. Oberyn virtually has to throw himself at Tyrion, but Tyrion still lies automaticaly for his father. Surely Oberyn knows perfectly well that Gregor did the deed. Can't imagine that was ever a secret.

It is interesting that Varys, Bronn, and Oberyn all hammer him with the obvious political step of Joffrey elimination and that the Tyrells arrive with that as an agenda. Even back in GoT the Hound was warning him about Joffrey. He thinks to himself that Jaime, the father, makes it an unthinkable option but I suspect the the shadow of Tywin is far more involved than he admits to himself-- the shadow of the other father...

That is a better explaination than assuming that Tyrion is just too innocent and unpolitical! Plus despite all of Joffrey's fairly obvious shortcomings it is only on the wedding day that the realises that he has got to get away. Psychologically the idea of kin seems to make the thought impossible - although that sits awkwardly with teh fact that he's quite happy fantastising about killing Tywin and Cersei. What is wrong with this picture :) What am I missing?

I like Blisscraft's take on Oberyn seeking justice for Elia by depriving it for Joffrey. A twist on poetic justice. The one distinction between Oberyn and the other judges is that he is the only one seeking truth in this trial even if trying to deny "justice." His question about Tyrion keeping his limbs to me is an implication that the witnesses are lying. He is pointing out that they in fact did not see it as the crime they are testifying to if they did not do their duty at the time or the alternative that they have no honor or sense of duty-- a bit of establishing a reputation for truth and veracity...

Good point :)

Not much to add, so I just want to thrown this out there to see what you guys think. Do you believe that Tywin's offer to take the black was legitimate or just a ruse to get Tyrion to confess being a kinslayer-kingslayer? Kevan seems to believe so, but as was pointed out he goes on and on about Tywin being just and no more hard than he needs to be while the trial Tywin is presiding reeks of injustice...

Kevan thinks it is geniune. Tywin...well why not? Tyrion alive, on the Wall, eventually in charge as Lord Commander because he is a Lannister is an asset to House Lannister as they recast the north with their man Bolton as Warden. Tyrion dead is not useful. Tywin's view on the watch elsewhere seems to be fairly cynical. I don't think he sees it as seriously a neutral force in the north.

...I do not think his refusal to blame Sansa is self-serving; inspite of the "one heart" thing...

I think Tyrion's protectiveness toward Sansa here, no matter how grudgingly, is one of his more admirable actions considering he really considers her as a likely culprit. While he may be unreasonably bitter with Sansa over her desertion, his bitterness doesn't lead to him putting all the blame for the murder on her...

Not sure, I think there is a element of both. We know what Tyrion's marriage has been like, but he can't prove that in court. Cersei has Shae and the other maid came courtesy of Varys who is also a witness for the prosecution. Clearly he could have dumped her in it too, but that could not have saved him. The assumption must have been made that Sansa was involved because the gold cloaks were searching for her already before Tyrion requested her as a witness.

...the whole father & Father thing makes for a interesting lead question for the ADWD chapters: Tyrion killed the father without. But what about the father within? As you say, Tyrion's trip is much about recreating himself. What I'm wondering now is, if Tyrion will recreat the lost father by becoming his version of Tywin - like he tryied in Clash? Or will he kill the father within himself, too?

My feeling is that Tyrion has to kill the Lord of Casterly Rock to become the Lord of Casterly Rock and we will get to see Tyrion as a Tywin in future. A cunning, forceful lord, capable of tricks and winning wards with letters, but also a steady hand on the tiller and a force for peace (once all his enemies are dead, their castles in ruins and their singers in the soup). But it is still too early to say.

...this trial does not go as a trial in Westeros is supposed to go. This because Tyrion does not behave as he is supposed to behave.

...

But why doesn't Tyrion act? My guess: He once more is acting the way, he thinks his father would want him to act. Offscreen he felt, that his father needs a scapegoat to blame the murder on and that the father wants and needs him to sacrifice himself in this trial. And this thought is, what really paralizes him. He just sits there letting things happen. He knows he will be sacrificed to the cause of Lannister power and this is why the evening in his chambers feel rather like a dying man looking back on his life then a man fighting a desperate fight for his life.

He is a child of Tywin's and as Tywin's children always did throughout the books, he just stands there, accepting whatever their father pours down on them...

Tyrion as sacrifice is really interesting. Atonement.

I had another word in mind for the trial. Not show trial, not theatre, something else - but I've forgotten. :)

[Elba the Intoner]

About the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, I have read it and seen the arguments for it and I have come to believe that Tywin was indeed poisoned, as it makes sense in light of how his body decayed so quickly, but I don't think Oberyn did it. I think Varys was doing it and started soon after Oberyn came to King's Landing. I was going to wait to say something about this until we got to the end of Tyrion's POV in Storm, but I'll just throw out a teaser now about a grander scheme I am thinking was going on in that I think Varys wanted Tywin dead. I started formulating this idea after the ADWD Epilogue, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Varys eventually managed to arrange things so that Tyrion ended up doing the killing for him.

[Punchslap]

The idea expressed above of Tyrion having value at the Wall for the Lannisters puzzles me: do we have any evidence that Tywin thinks that's of importance?

[Winterfellian]

The idea expressed above of Tyrion having value at the Wall for the Lannisters puzzles me: do we have any evidence that Tywin thinks that's of importance?

I can't speak for Lummel, but what I got from his post is that the speculation is based on Tywin's "a tool for every task" mentality. From Tywin's comments about the Lannister's cause being benefited by having Janos Slynt as LC of the NW and even to the possibility of Mance Rayder proving a useful ally one can conclude that he's weighting the benefits that having the watch on the Lannister side might prove and what uses he can give to it, even if he doesn't think much about the organization itself in terms of status. The same as Slynt is undeserving of Harrenhal, Tyrion is undeserving of Casterly Rock, but that doesn't mean they are useless, just that they need employment more within their sphere so to speak.

@Lummel, maybe am being as mistrustful of Tywin as you with Garlan but I can't believe Tywin in this case. Even if he held up to the bargain and send Tyrion on his way to save face in front of the realm I wouldn't put it pass him to arrange that Tyrion suffered an accident on his way to the wall, similar to Allar Deem. After all, the Kingsroad is not safe right now and those autumn storms can be pretty dangerous ;) Not to mention he's sending him to a place where the LC candidate Tywin is supporting was sent there by Tyrion.

[Currawong]

I can't speak for Lummel, but what I got from his post is that the speculation is based on Tywin's "a tool for every task" mentality. From Tywin's comments about the Lannister's cause being benefited by having Janos Slynt as LC of the NW and even to the possibility of Mance Rayder proving a useful ally one can conclude that he's weighting the benefits that having the watch on the Lannister side might prove and what uses he can give to it, even if he doesn't think much about the organization itself in terms of status. The same as Slynt is undeserving of Harrenhal, Tyrion is undeserving of Casterly Rock, but that doesn't mean they are useless, just that they need employment more within their sphere so to speak.

Exactly. In looking at Tywin's relationship with Tyrion, we should not forget that Tywin was known as a strategist. He was Hand for some 20 years, a job which - according to what we know - he carried out extremely well, so even if the immediate value of having a Lannister up at the Wall is not obvious, he would not be unmindful of possible future use. Of course, he could also see it as his chance to get rid of Tyrion on a 'no questions asked' basis as suggested by Winterfellian, because accidents do happen don't they. Either way, I see no reason to doubt that Tywin's offer to send Tyrion to the Wall was not a genuine one, or that he had not been negotiating about this behind the scenes.

[Lummel]

About the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, I have read it and seen the arguments for it and I have come to believe that Tywin was indeed poisoned, as it makes sense in light of how his body decayed so quickly, but I don't think Oberyn did it. I think Varys was doing it and started soon after Oberyn came to King's Landing. I was going to wait to say something about this until we got to the end of Tyrion's POV in Storm, but I'll just throw out a teaser now about a grander scheme I am thinking was going on in that I think Varys wanted Tywin dead. I started formulating this idea after the ADWD Epilogue, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Varys eventually managed to arrange things so that Tyrion ended up doing the killing for him.

OK! Look forward to hearing more about this :)

The idea expressed above of Tyrion having value at the Wall for the Lannisters puzzles me: do we have any evidence that Tywin thinks that's of importance?

We don't have any evidence that Tywin wants Tyrion dead either. All we know is that Kevan believes the offer of the Wall was genuine and Tyrion seems to accept it as such. I was just saying that Tywin could have viewed Tyrion as a potential asset, and if he's an asset there is more value in keeping him alive than in killing him.

@Winterfellian

but what you say about autumn storms and difficult roads is also true of course :) I don't think Slynt is a problem as such, there are three castles on the Wall, Tyrion is younger than Slynt so maybe Tyrion would in this scenario get to be 1000th Lord Commander after Slynt the 999th. My point is simply that if Tywin saw a value in having Tyrion alive at the Wall then he has a fair motivation for doing so.

@Even death may die, but if you're not moved by that then what about the family dynamic and the tension between Tyrion and Tywin? Once Tyrion is dead then it's all over, but if he dumps him at the Wall then Tyrion gets to suffer for the death of Joanna for years and years and years in a socially acceptable way. Tywin might even get a reputation for being unusually merciful for it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Exactly. In looking at Tywin's relationship with Tyrion, we should not forget that Tywin was known as a strategist. He was Hand for some 20 years, a job which - according to what we know - he carried out extremely well, so even if the immediate value of having a Lannister up at the Wall is not obvious, he would not be unmindful of possible future use. Of course, he could also see it as his chance to get rid of Tyrion on a 'no questions asked' basis as suggested by Winterfellian, because accidents do happen don't they. Either way, I see no reason to doubt that Tywin's offer to send Tyrion to the Wall was not a genuine one, or that he had not been negotiating about this behind the scenes.

Further, with Sansa gone and Tyrion unwilling to consummate, the contingency of maybe putting a Lannister grandchild in Winterfell is not really working out, and since Tyrion has been accused of regicide, his "value" has lessened. Hence "a tool for every task and a task for every tool" would make the Wall more fitting, especially if Tywin thinks Mance can be swayed and he wants someone there if Bolton should not toe the line. Plus at the Wall, Tyrion can also not usurp Jaime's claim on Casterly Rock. (I tend to think that despite all Tywin's fuming, he still thought he'd put the thumbscrews on Jaime eventually and make him come around. Jaime's balking was a temporary set back.)

[Silverin]

Again to those who sais Tywin's offer wasn't genuine, because he wanted tyrion dead. He did not need a confession from tyrion to kill him!

The way the trial was going he was basically already dead.

The confession means that Tywin can send him to the NW. That is all the confession is good for.

Further, with Sansa gone and Tyrion unwilling to consummate, the contingency of maybe putting a Lannister grandchild in Winterfell is not really working out, and since Tyrion has been accused of regicide, his "value" has lessened. Hence "a tool for every task and a task for every tool" would make the Wall more fitting, especially if Tywin thinks Mance can be swayed and he wants someone there if Bolton should not toe the line. Plus at the Wall, Tyrion can also not usurp Jaime's claim on Casterly Rock. (I tend to think that despite all Tywin's fuming, he still thought he'd put the thumbscrews on Jaime eventually and make him come around. Jaime's balking was a temporary set back.)

This.

[Punchslap]

We don't have any evidence that Tywin wants Tyrion dead either. All we know is that Kevan believes the offer of the Wall was genuine and Tyrion seems to accept it as such. I was just saying that Tywin could have viewed Tyrion as a potential asset, and if he's an asset there is more value in keeping him alive than in killing him.

@Even death may die, but if you're not moved by that then what about the family dynamic and the tension between Tyrion and Tywin? Once Tyrion is dead then it's all over, but if he dumps him at the Wall then Tyrion gets to suffer for the death of Joanna for years and years and years in a socially acceptable way. Tywin might even get a reputation for being unusually merciful for it.

I agree there's no evidence that Tywin wants him dead--if I made it seem like that was my argument, my bad. At face value there's no direct evidence that Tywin is lying about his offer of the wall, but what seems lacking to me is that Tywin see's any use for the wall other than as a penal colony. We see how dismissive Tyrion is about the wall before he goes there and that attitude surely comes from his father. So, was the offer of the wall genuine? Possibly (probably?), but was it for a strategic purpose? I don't think there's evidence in the text for that--unless I'm forgetting a prior Tywin moment where he indicates that it has importance to him.

[Lummel]

Well yes, there is the earlier council meeting when Tywin decides to withhold support from the Wall until they elect Janos Slynt as the next Lord Commander. Would he bother doing that if it was just a penal colony? Presumably there is some, even if only potential value, to him in having his own man in charge of the prison.

[Punchslap]

Well yes, there is the earlier council meeting when Tywin decides to withhold support from the Wall until they elect Janos Slynt as the next Lord Commander.

Point taken.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Well yes, there is the earlier council meeting when Tywin decides to withhold support from the Wall until they elect Janos Slynt as the next Lord Commander. Would he bother doing that if it was just a penal colony? Presumably there is some, even if only potential value, to him in having his own man in charge of the prison.

I wonder how would would have reacted to jon snow's election?