Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Lummel]

...So in trying to see this from a different angle I wonder if Tyrion’s own advice doesn’t morphed into something more obscure instead as his story progresses. I don’t know if you notice but the number of times Tyrion laments his physical appereance in ASOS is increased in comparison with AGOT and ACOK. This of couse is related to his facial disfiguration, his father’s presence and Sansa...

Oh, good stuff! I did have the feeling that he's been waddling more recently

Oh, I don't mean to imply that Tyrion is a flawless hero in ACOK, but he's definitely in a better position mentally there, plus despite having to lean on Varys and getting "played" to a degree, he still gets a lot of things done and is comparably quite efficient. Plus had he had more time, I think LF would have met an untimely end, too...

...The internal focus, the navel gazing keeps Tyrion from being able to act or do. In Clash, from the very beginning he had an agenda and marching orders which kept that navel gazing at bay. There was little time for woe is me in between replacing Slynt, building the chain, and all the many tasks that would have consumed his time. He was able to do but that's not the same as saying he won't also be a pawn in the games of others or that he doesn't have a flaw that renders him immune to manipulation either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that an ability to function doesn't lead to a 100% success rate by default. So, essentially, we are talking about why he can't act (the be as Blisscraft put it so well) and why he isn't always getting it right when he is actually doing...

I think Kittykatknits and Lyanna nailed Tyrion's blindness pretty well between that which emotionally impacts him and the internal vs external focus or work vs navel gazing. It may even just be that the work distracts him from his emotions. I would largely attribute his main deficiencies in Clash to his emotional state regarding Cersei. Nobody is perfect but he would have been played far less without the emotionally charged Cersei conflict...

ok, the idea that tyrion was too busy to be self-absorbed works for me. :)

ETA The lieutenant Columbo approach to posting here, oh, just one more thing...

Illyn Payne draws his sword for Joffrey and Margaery to cut open the yummy pigeon pie. Is this just so GRRM can show us that Sansa notices that Ice is missing or do you think there is a bit of doom and gloom symbolism there with the sword of the sword of the royal headsman used for decapitating many a criminal used at this fatal feast?

[Silverin]

ETA The lieutenant Columbo approach to posting here, oh, just one more thing...

Illyn Payne draws his sword for Joffrey and Margaery to cut open the yummy pigeon pie. Is this just so GRRM can show us that Sansa notices that Ice is missing or do you think there is a bit of doom and gloom symbolism there with the sword of the sword of the royal headsman used for decapitating many a criminal used at this fatal feast?

You know I was always thinking, how living pigeons were in the pie, and thy flew out after the cut. How the hell did they bake them into it? And don't they shit in there? And even if I misunderstood something feathers were everywhere. And they use that during a royal wedding? I am no culinary expert, but I would never eat from a pie like that....

But at least Sansa didn't eat from it. :dunno:

[Lummel]

Well when I was small I used to sing

"sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of rye, four and twenty black birds baked in a pie..." but I can't say the technology of doing this troubled me particularly, however moved by your question I did some tardy research and discovered that the trick is that you bake the pie first with a hole and then put your birds (or frogs, apparently frogs can be similarly entertaining) in after once it is cool.

For all you keen home bakers here is the recipe

ETA and yes eating the pie afterwards is not recommended for precisely the reasons you mention. If I was in charge of baking Joffrey's bird pie I would probably have built it out of sections so the messy bird bit could be cleanly removed :dunno:

ETA II and here is a rare illustration of Aerys II opening a bird pie

[Silverin]

Well when I was small I used to sing

"sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of rye, four and twenty black birds baked in a pie..." but I can't say the technology of doing this troubled me particularly, however moved by your question I did some tardy research and discovered that the trick is that you bake the pie first with a hole and then put your birds (or frogs, apparently frogs can be similarly entertaining) in after once it is cool.

For all you keen home bakers here is the recipe

ETA and yes eating the pie afterwards is not recommended for precisely the reasons you mention. If I was in charge of baking Joffrey's bird pie I would probably have built it out of sections so the messy bird bit could be cleanly removed :dunno:

Well at least one of the things that always disturbed the heck out of me at the wedding have some answers. :stillsick:

If you think about it can be symbolical as well. The main dish at the JoffMarg wedding is while very spectacular, but in reality is quite shitty. :cool4: oh yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

sorry

These reread threads have been enlighting.

[Kittykatknits]

Well when I was small I used to sing

"sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of rye, four and twenty black birds baked in a pie..." but I can't say the technology of doing this troubled me particularly, however moved by your question I did some tardy research and discovered that the trick is that you bake the pie first with a hole and then put your birds (or frogs, apparently frogs can be similarly entertaining) in after once it is cool.

For all you keen home bakers here is the recipe

ETA and yes eating the pie afterwards is not recommended for precisely the reasons you mention. If I was in charge of baking Joffrey's bird pie I would probably have built it out of sections so the messy bird bit could be cleanly removed :dunno:

ETA II and here is a rare illustration of Aerys II opening a bird pie

For some reason, I find this several times more disturbing than the idea of humans being killed so their flesh can be served in a pork pie at a wedding celebration. :dunno:

[1234567]

I think Kittykatknits and Lyanna nailed Tyrion's blindness pretty well between that which emotionally impacts him and the internal vs external focus or work vs navel gazing. It may even just be that the work distracts him from his emotions. I would largely attribute his main deficiencies in Clash to his emotional state regarding Cersei. Nobody is perfect but he would have been played far less without the emotionally charged Cersei conflict.

Part of Tyrion's success in Clash may have been that for once he feels valued as a Son. Cersei has messed up and Tywin in a round about fashion makes it clear that he wants Tyrion safely in KL, because he is the only son he has with Jaime captured. Tyrion is given a position of trust and value and also feels with Shae that he has the girl. Varys makes a terrific job of seeming to be his friend and Tyrion also as Bronn and his Mountain Clans as support. He does not feel insecure at this point so the navel gazing is not an issue to a degree. It is quite possible that he was deluding himself that he would remain the Hand of the Throne, or that somehow he hoped his father would be so impressed that he would remain in his position.

As it was he retained a position of great power as master of the coin, but became a child at the behest of his father again. Despite the fact that he is aware that Cersei is supposedly superior to Tywin, she seems to caplitulate to his wihes, yet he doesn't notice that he always aquieses to his father as well. He is desperate to achive his father's regard and yet that is almost impossible as in his father's presence both he and Cersei revert to roles they learned as children. There is a familial discord that unites the Lannisters in a cacophany of disharmony. Their are poster book for a disfunctional family.

By the Wedding, Tyrion has fallen into the role of the "dissapointment son" (or the Gob Bluth of the Lannisters), and is drowning his sorrows. Actually given how much Tyrion is drinking, how impared is his judgement? Not just at the night of Joff's wedding, but given the events following the three months since the battle of black water was he moving towards being a functioning alcoholic?

There is also a school of thought that says intellectuals make good advisors but bad leaders or executives because they get mired in the intricacies of the problem at the expense of acting on it.

To give another real life example, but the other way round. Winston Churchill was a fantastic wartime PM, but was useless in peace time.

Well when I was small I used to sing

"sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of rye, four and twenty black birds baked in a pie..." but I can't say the technology of doing this troubled me particularly,

Yeap I remember singing that. To be honest I was always more intrigued by the maid who has her nose pecked off at the end of the song. Actually is it just me or do most British things have something gruesome at the root of them (you should look up the origin of Sweet F A, or Mary Mary Quite Contrary, as other charming examples).Although to give those across the pond their due, Lizzy Borden is a particularly gruesome rhyme.

ETA Rapsie this doesn't tell you what you need to know. But yes we burnt down their White House! Haha, how many times have you burnt down Parliament USA? Oh that's right ZERO!

ETA II one day USA you too will be post Imperial and will make the most of these kinds of things!

Thank you, I looked it up and basically surmised that like most of Europe's problems, when it all boiled down to it, it was the fault of the French. :box:

On another note, I love that people talk of Westeros putting their differences behind them when we still have a certain two fingered salute that stems from the Battle of Agincourt and a small rivalry to this day.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion IX will be up shortly, but in the meantime, I pulled out some relevant info pertaining to Tyrion from the Jaime chapter that follows the Purple Wedding.

Jaime VII: Jaime returns to KL, fornicates with Cersei in the Sept over Joff’s corpse, and defies Tywin.

He would see Cersei soon, and Tyrion, and their father. Could my brother truly have killed the boy? Jaime found that hard to believe.

Throughout the chapter, Jaime repeatedly finds Tyrion’s guilt extremely difficult to believe. Warped tales of the wedding have spread, painting both Tyrion and Sansa as monsters, but something about this feels wrong to Jaime (beyond the absurd exaggerations, I mean).

Cersei: “He killed him, Jaime. Just as he’d warned me. One day when I thought myself safe and happy he would turn my joy to ashes in my mouth, he said.”

“Tyrion said that?” Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. I loved Tyrion. I was

good to him. Well, but for that one time . . . but the Imp did not know the truth of that. Or did he? “Why would he kill Joff?”

I think Cersei genuinely believes Tyrion is guilty, and certainly there is a good case against him from her point of view. We have the benefit of Tyrion’s own thoughts and know that he’d never considered killing Joffrey prior to it’s being introduced by Bronn and Varys, and we had his POV of the wedding itself, so we are sure of his innocence.

It’s noteworthy that Jaime’s disbelief stems from the fact that Tyrion wouldn’t harm a child of Jaime’s and this is actually part of Tyrion’s logic as well. Tyrion has rationalized in the past that he would not hurt either Cersei or the children out of love for Jaime. I am actually surprised that Cersei will go out of her way to ruin Tyrion, given that Tyrion knows about the incest and could easily use this fact in his defense. Yes, Tyrion did say that he would turn her joy to ash, but he also has told her that he would not hurt her out of love for Jaime; I’m somewhat unclear why the possibility of Tyrion’s outing her was not more of a concern for her.

Jaime: “Cersei claims that Tyrion did it.”

Tywin: “Your brother served the king the poisoned wine, with a thousand people looking on.”

Jaime: “That was rather foolish of him.”

Tywin doesn’t seem to commit here; I don’t believe Tywin thinks Tyrion did it; Tywin knows that Tyrion wouldn’t be so obvious as to kill the king with poisoned wine that the entire court watched him serve, as Jaime points out. It seems that getting rid of Tyrion aligns with Tywin’s plans in some way, but I’m nagged by something. If Tywin knows that Tyrion is innocent, that is, framed, then shouldn’t he be outraged over the indignity this causes to his House? He used Tyrion’s capture as an excuse for war in aGoT; now it is very clear that Tyrion is being framed, and it seems out of character for Tywin to be so blasé over the fact that someone is violating his family (both Joffrey and Tyrion).

“You are my son—”

“I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that’s all I mean to be!”

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

This proves that a child of Tywin can defy Tywin without resulting in immediate death.

[Lummel]

For some reason, I find this several times more disturbing than the idea of humans being killed so their flesh can be served in a pork pie at a wedding celebration. :dunno:

I am sorry that the idea of me singing about sixpences after the decimalisation of our currency disturbed you :crying:

Part of Tyrion's success in Clash may have been that for once he feels valued as a Son. Cersei has messed up and Tywin in a round about fashion makes it clear that he wants Tyrion safely in KL, because he is the only son he has with Jaime captured. Tyrion is given a position of trust and value and also feels with Shae that he has the girl. Varys makes a terrific job of seeming to be his friend and Tyrion also as Bronn and his Mountain Clans as support. He does not feel insecure at this point so the navel gazing is not an issue to a degree. It is quite possible that he was deluding himself that he would remain the Hand of the Throne, or that somehow he hoped his father would be so impressed that he would remain in his position.

As it was he retained a position of great power as master of the coin, but became a child at the behest of his father again. Despite the fact that he is aware that Cersei is supposedly superior to Tywin, she seems to caplitulate to his wihes, yet he doesn't notice that he always aquieses to his father as well. He is desperate to achive his father's regard and yet that is almost impossible as in his father's presence both he and Cersei revert to roles they learned as children. There is a familial discord that unites the Lannisters in a cacophany of disharmony. Their are poster book for a disfunctional family.

By the Wedding, Tyrion has fallen into the role of the "dissapointment son" (or the Gob Bluth of the Lannisters), and is drowning his sorrows. Actually given how much Tyrion is drinking, how impared is his judgement? Not just at the night of Joff's wedding, but given the events following the three months since the battle of black water was he moving towards being a functioning alcoholic?

You know maybe that is a another reason for the waddling in self pity and thoughts as per Winterfellian about his appearance, he's fallen back into the learnt behaviours from his childhood?

The danger being that physically he was safe at Casterly Rock - "sharp lessons" being reserved for those outside the circle of trust but isn't at King's Landing.

As you say it is interesting that it is the old sibling rivalry that brings him down rather than the Tyrell plot as such.

Yeap I remember singing that. To be honest I was always more intrigued by the maid who has her nose pecked off at the end of the song. Actually is it just me or do most British things have something gruesome at the root of them (you should look up the origin of Sweet F A, or Mary Mary Quite Contrary, as other charming examples).Although to give those across the pond their due, Lizzy Borden is a particularly gruesome rhyme.

Not just Britain (how about Max and moritz? The Brothers Grimm?). You sang 'pecked'? I sing 'pegged' accompanied by my right hand playing the part of the bird and pegging off the nose of the child I sing it to, my thumb then cunningly plays the role of the child's nose. If you get them at the right age the child puts their hands to their face thinking that I did peg off their nose. Hehe. That'll learn 'em :laugh:

... Tywin doesn’t seem to commit here; I don’t believe Tywin thinks Tyrion did it; Tywin knows that Tyrion wouldn’t be so obvious as to kill the king with poisoned wine that the entire court watched him serve, as Jaime points out. It seems that getting rid of Tyrion aligns with Tywin’s plans in some way, but I’m nagged by something. If Tywin knows that Tyrion is innocent, that is, framed, then shouldn’t he be outraged over the indignity this causes to his House? He used Tyrion’s capture as an excuse for war in aGoT; now it is very clear that Tyrion is being framed, and it seems out of character for Tywin to be so blasé over the fact that someone is violating his family (both Joffrey and Tyrion)...

This troubles me too. The only thing I can come up with is that Tywin considers both to be expendable and that they should consider themselves expendable for the good of the family.

On the other hand there is the potential of competition between himself and Tyrion...

[Elaena Targaryen]

On the pie with birds I was under the impression that you make a pie as just the shell with no filler that has a hole in the bottom that you place the birds into after the pie shell was baked, then you cut into the pie and the birds fly out, oh what fun. Then you serve a completely different pie that you made with filler and no birds that is intended for your guests to eat so it is clean and safe with no shit or feathers, how lovely, besides how could the birds be in a pie with filler between no space and the heat? So the huge pie at the PW with birds is not the same pie that the guests ate, after the suprise when they cut the pie with the birds the servers brought pieces of a different pie for the guests to eat. Unless I'm missing something here or read it wrong because I wanted too, but I never had the impression they ate from the pie that had birds in it.

@Rapsie good points about Tyrion, it reminds me of Tywin appointing him to clean the drains at CR and how if that's what his father wanted then they would be the best working drains ever, or something like that.

[greensleeves]

On the pie with birds I was under the impression that you make a pie as just the shell with no filler that has a hole in the bottom that you place the birds into after the pie shell was baked, then you cut into the pie and the birds fly out, oh what fun. Then you serve a completely different pie that you made with filler and no birds that is intended for your guests to eat so it is clean and safe with no shit or feathers, how lovely, besides how could the birds be in a pie with filler between no space and the heat? So the huge pie at the PW with birds is not the same pie that the guests ate, after the suprise when they cut the pie with the birds the servers brought pieces of a different pie for the guests to eat. Unless I'm missing something here or read it wrong because I wanted too, but I never had the impression they ate from the pie that had birds in it.

That was my impression too. In the text Tyrion describes the slices for eating coming being served almost immediately after the live birds are released (probably too soon for them to have sliced the other pie). He also creates a distinction between the pies:

"A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall."

Edit: note that the emphasis is not mine

[greensleeves]

Tywin doesn’t seem to commit here; I don’t believe Tywin thinks Tyrion did it; Tywin knows that Tyrion wouldn’t be so obvious as to kill the king with poisoned wine that the entire court watched him serve, as Jaime points out. It seems that getting rid of Tyrion aligns with Tywin’s plans in some way, but I’m nagged by something. If Tywin knows that Tyrion is innocent, that is, framed, then shouldn’t he be outraged over the indignity this causes to his House? He used Tyrion’s capture as an excuse for war in aGoT; now it is very clear that Tyrion is being framed, and it seems out of character for Tywin to be so blasé over the fact that someone is violating his family (both Joffrey and Tyrion).

Maybe Tywin's weakness is similar to Tyrion's; he's a effective guy in general, but completely blind when it comes to himself and his family.

Even if he did know, I think that the most important thing for Tywin is that his house is immediately *publicly* avenged. Its vitally important to Tywin that it is widely known that his house isn't to be messed around with... someone had to go down quickly. I don't want to skip ahead but I think that Tywin suspected Tyrion wasn't truly his son. Beyond that, Tywin considered Tyrion to be something of a disgrace. I think sending Tyrion to the wall was something he was prepared to accept. I also think that he would have tried to enact revenge against the true perpetrators (if he did know that Tyrion was innocent) had he lived.

Edit: sorry for the double post

[Lummel]

...I don't want to skip ahead but I think that Tywin suspected Tyrion wasn't truly his son...

Maybe, but seeing that in the Jaime chapter that Butterbumps! posted Tywin tells jaime that he is not his son then that leaves Tywin sonless. In which case Tommen alone is the future of House Lannister. Beets beware.

[Uncat]

@Lummel, one final remark on monsters and men and then I'll let it go

You are absolutly right on how some people lern to controll their basic drives while others don't. And what we see here, from Tyrions point of view is exactly this. He is learning to keep his inner monsters at bay. And this out of the highes form of learning, out of intrinsic motivation. He has no external motivation to restrain himself and it does not earn him a reward (though he may have hoped so...?). As I said. Concerning his craving for love and a fullfilled consensual sexuality, we see him at his lowest here.

The reason, why I see it as a successfull intrinsic learning process is that he keeps on restraining himself. While in the wedding night he might have hoped for a later reward, later on he knows, that he has nothing to gain from what he is not doing.

The wedding night is when the monster starts to become a man. And - as I'm hoping - a good man by Westerosi standards.

[greensleeves]

Maybe, but seeing that in the Jaime chapter that Butterbumps! posted Tywin tells jaime that he is not his son then that leaves Tywin sonless. In which case Tommen alone is the future of House Lannister. Beets beware.

Yes. It could be that Tywin's attitude over the past few chapters is the result of crippling depression from the colossal group of fuck-ups he's sired (in his eyes anyways). The irony here is that he's the one that created the toxic family environment. He may finally be realizing the results of his parenting techniques will be the true downfall of his line.

[Uncat]

Lummel, Blisscraft, on doing and being and Tyrions focus.

In Clash, Tyrion is doing. But most of all he is BEING something he ever wanted to be. He feels as if he is his fathers heir, his trusted son. He feels as if he is loved by a wonderfull woman. The acting Hand Tyrion Lannister we meet in clash i actually Tyrion acting Tyvin Lannister. In Clash he feels appreciated by he father and is happy to do, what he thinks his father would want him to do. From this angle, it is not so much being or doing but being and then acting out of who he is. In Clash, he is, who he wants to be. He is Tyrion Lannister, heir to the Rock and right hand to his father. He is in a happy relationship and he is great. Or so he thinks.

Then the battle happens, Tywin returns and the masquerade ends. And that might be the main reason, why in that POV, where Tyrion first meets Tywin, Tyrion is only vested in a nightgown. It is not a rebirth. It is the end of Tyrions roleplay. All his costumes are gone and he is Tyrion the Imp once more. The curse his father is made to bear. And his father does make a point in showing, who or what Tyrion really is: Nothing. Not a hero, not his son, not his heir and not a loved man but a whoremonger. And Tyrion the Imp isn't a player anymore and stops using his gifts.

Clash lets Tyrion be, who he thinks, he wants to be: His father. In Storm, his father forces him to be, what he thinks, Tyrion is: a twisted little Imp and the bane of House Lannister and he acts as such. And when ADWD starts, there isn't anyone left to tell Tyrion, who he is. Thus Tyrion just stops acting at all at allows others to act on his behalfe by draging him around. This will only end, when Tyrion is even less then he ever was, a thing one can buy and sell.

Tyrion has an artists, mummers or actors soul. He loves to play roles and is best, when on stage. The most important thing for him, is to have a feel for who he is right now, a mental image, he can follow. Once he has established his current state of being, he will start doing accordingly.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Yes. It could be that Tywin's attitude over the past few chapters is the result of crippling depression from the colossal group of fuck-ups he's sired (in his eyes anyways). The irony here is that he's the one that created the toxic family environment. He may finally be realizing the results of his parenting techniques will be the true downfall of his line.

isn't there in antique tragedies in the middle of the third part a moment where the Protagonist realises his mistakes and errors but also realises that its too late to stop it.

epiphany thats the word

[Blisscraft]

Jaime VII: Jaime returns to KL, fornicates with Cersei in the Sept over Joff’s corpse, and defies Tywin.

:lmao: This is too funny! Thank you, dear BB. You made me laugh out loud!

[Ragnorak]

Speaking of defying Tywin and living, I think Jaime's reaction here is closer to what some expected of Tyrion with Sansa.

“NO!” Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. “No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you’ll hear it?"

When Cersei first plotted to have Jaime join the KG, Jaime objected on the grounds that Tywin would never permit it. Cersei countered by telling him that when Aerys had cut out Ilyn Payne's tongue and Tywin didn't object. Not only does it make one wonder where Joffrey got the notion that Tywin was afraid of Aerys, but I also have to wonder if his reaction was a similar silence to the aftermath we see after Joffrey's comment. Tywin is big on bestowing and taking away the "you are my son" reward. He bestowed it on Tyrion when he wrote Jaime off. Since he's taking it away from Jaime in this chapter he must have someone else to bestow it on-- Tommen. Beets beware indeed, kittens too if Tommon proves a slow learner.

Here's also a little more flavor of Tywin not speaking.

A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. “Father…” he began.

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away.

Tywin seems in complete agreement with Tyrion when he calls Joffrey Aerys the Third. He says there is still time, but looks more disturbed than even Tyrion expected. If we combine that scene with his permitting Aerys to cut the tongue out of his own Captain of the Guard, Bronn calling the pliable Tommen alternative so blantantly obvious, and his almost reflexive disowning of Jaime here, it really starts to paint a picture of Tywin writing off Joffrey in favor of Tommen. Specifically knowing about the Tyrell plot and letting it happen still requires a good Varys agenda explanation since that seems to be the only possible source Tywin would have for the plot. With Payne's tongue and Jaime's initial KG membership as things Tywin had to stomach under Aerys, I don't see him taking the Joffrey/Aerys revelation seasoned with humiliation lying down. Tywin is not a man for half measures.

We're also given Tywin's agenda here:

A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he’ll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—

Tywin wants Jaime as his heir and Jaime teaching Tommen to rule. He wants to offer Lady of the Rock and "mother" to the King to the Tyrells instead of Queen. This punishes Cersei by stealing her son and lover and giving them both to another woman. She gets her daughter as a consolation for her exile in Dorne. (I somehow think Tywin is hoping to inflict a future Joffrey on the Dornish.) Tywin also isolates Margaery from her support base. Of course Tywin rules as Hand unhindered by a King who will be on the other side of the continent. Note the alternative marriage candidate for Margaery. Was this Tywin's plan for the aftermath of his own Joffrey elimination?

He doesn't actually answer Jaime's question of Tyrion's guilt or whether or not he will allow Tyrion to be executed. His responses are political as if how Tyrion is disposed of is just another calculation. Does Tywin decide here to let Tyrion die as a "sharp lesson" to Jaime for his refusal?

[Lyanna Stark]

:lmao: This is too funny! Thank you, dear BB. You made me laugh out loud!

I agree, I think BB made the best chapter summary ever! :bowdown:

[Lummel]

@Lummel, one final remark on monsters and men and then I'll let it go

You are absolutly right on how some people lern to controll their basic drives while others don't. And what we see here, from Tyrions point of view is exactly this. He is learning to keep his inner monsters at bay. And this out of the highes form of learning, out of intrinsic motivation. He has no external motivation to restrain himself and it does not earn him a reward (though he may have hoped so...?) ...

The wedding night is when the monster starts to become a man. And - as I'm hoping - a good man by Westerosi standards.

I had a thought about this earlier, forgot to write it down and in part it's slipped my memory but undaunted I shall continue...

Firstly monster is a recurrant theme in Tyrion, either how he looks at himself or how the world (or bits of it) perceive him, so it's legiimate to mention it, don't fel that you have to shut up about it Uncat!

Secondly, back to the Wedding. I was thinking about the dwarves jousting and Joffrey's invitation for Tyrion to challenge them - I know that we'll come back to this in ADWD from a different POV but in this case Joffrey is trying to belittle Tyrion (i'm sorry, I tried to prevent myself, but just couldn't). To oblige him to perform the dwarf role.

The dwarf role has two aspects, one as ridiculous figure of fun, somebody who is laughed at, which is double anathema for Tyrion (no one laughs at a Lannister!) but also as monster, mother killer, Rumpelstilskin and Lykos's

etc. I think Tyrion is ambivolent about it, ok it's unpleasent, but there is a certain power in it too, but that's by the by. (sorry that is probably very idiomatic, I mean the previous sentence isn't really relevent to the point I am rambling on about)

Part of the physical awareness that Winterfellian mentioned, the not being tall, the waddling, is associated with dwarvishness and therefore monsterousness - I feel these come bundled together in the Tyrion bargain package - please disagree if you see this differently.

So anyway. Joffrey is inviting him to become less than human. Trying to force him into roles that deny him the full range of humanity. Or so, I feel there is that element to their exchange, obviously but for Joffrey terribly unfortunate accident and combined with that morning's book chopping it's quite clear what uncle Tyrion role would have been at court under King Joffrey first of his name.